Ouch! I feel a bit bruised after that. I apologize in advance for formatting errors as I am copy/pasting from my phone Notes app. I have tried correcting the vast majority of them but it is getting tiring.
A couple Non Bible historical evidences
Irenaeus - Against Heresies 5.29 - 2nd century: And therefor when in the end the church shall be suddenly caught up from this. It is said there shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning neither shall be. For this this is the last contest of the righteous for when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Ephraim 4th century - “On the Last Times” - See that the sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares woe to those who desire to see of the Day of the Lord. For all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion overwhelm the world because of our sins.
Apostolic Bretheren 13th/14th centuries.
The History of Brother Galsino
Dispensationalism before Darby
Ancient Dispensationalism
Alas. You requested only Bible references so take the following Biblical references under consideration…
The Rapture is biblical doctrine.
1A) a foundational doctrine in the New Testament
Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Arpazzo- To be seized or extracted forcefully
1B) Why does the Rapture need to happen? It is a church event. Predominately gentile event.
Jesus welcomes the church to heaven. John 14:1-3
Revelation 4:1 John sees an open door in heaven and hears a voice sounding like a trumpet, come up here and I will show you things that happen after this. The church, bride of Christ, is not on earth and not spoken of again until Chapter 19 when they are in heaven.
It marks the completion of the church’s work. Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost to build the church and finishes by presenting the church to Christ at his appearing. Jude 1:24-25
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8A Holy Spirit steps aside and fills the 144,000 witnesses (Jews). Then the AC is revealed after the rapture of the church.
1C) What purpose does the Rapture serve?
Serves as an Exhortation to all believers to be watchful and ready. Paul says “we who are alive and remain” Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.
Consummation of the church: 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Fulfills the promises of God to deliver us from THE WRATH to come.
1 Thessalonians Paul teaches the predestination based upon the foreknowledge of God and the rapture.
2 Thessalonians came out of fear that Thessalonica missed the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Enoch was raptured.
Elijah was raptured
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
What will be the characteristics of the Rapture?
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2A) How will the Rapture happen? 1 Corinthians 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump…
2B) What will happen to those left behind? 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
When will the rapture happen? 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Differences between Pre and Rapture. One umbrella covers both. Each one is from its own perspective. Bride of Christ (the church) it is an imminent event with no prerequisites and for Tribulation saints (not members of the body of the church) there are prerequisits.
The Rapture:
Christ appears in the air for His church
The catching up of all believers takes place
The church age believers are taken to the Father’s house in Heaven
There is no judgement that takes place on earth
The church is physically gathered
Only the rapture is taught as being imminent.
There are no signs preceding it
Will only involve believers
It is a time of great joy and rejoicing
Happens before the tribulation period
There is no mention of satan
Only those looking for him will see him
The tribulation begins
Takes us to the marriage of Lamb and bride
There is a metamorphosis to all believers
The second coming:
Christ returns to earth with his church
No one is caught anywhere
Believers are not taken to the Father’s house in heaven
Christ judges all inhabitants of the earth
Jesus Christ gathers the nations on to judge
Happens for at least 7 years later
There are 100’s of signs
Affects all of humanity
It is time of violence
It happens immediately after the the tribulation period
Satan bound for a thousand years
Then every eye will see him
The tribulation ends
Jesus Christ and the bride descending
It happens immediately after the tribulation period, so no metamorphosis?
26 in secret chambers believe it not (not secret, private, or mysterious)
30 shall see Son of man coming (public)
1Cor 15 (Pre-Trib)
51 Behold I show you a mystery (not previously known but Jesus already spoke of rapture in Mat 24) Paul is speaking of a separate, rightly divided, rapture or he is a liar. (Private)
Paul’s mystery-We are Changed
1 Corinthians 15:49-51
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
“The last trump” Trumpet is used 61 times. Trumpets 51 times. Trump is only used 2 times, In the verses above. Those are the only two passages that speak about this event. Not a coincidence. This is how you compare scripture with scripture. So you can know these passages are connected with each other but separate from other events. KJV is the only translation that makes this distinction. All others change Trump to trumpet or trumpets creating confusion. There are many different trumpets. You must rightly divide this.
Difference between 2nd advent and mystery changed: 2nd advent is for the Jews and the mystery changed is for the Body of Christ (BOC). 2nd Advent = Jesus’ 2nd time on earth and is prophesied to happen after the great tribulation to establish His kingdom. The great tribulation applies to the Jews. Jeremiah 1st advent is what the gospels are about.
Mystery changed we meet Jesus in the air. Not on earth.
The great tribulation is God’s wrath dispensed to the Jews for their unbelief. BOC have already been forgiven and are with Jesus in Heaven.
The 2nd advent has signs and prophecy that must happen before it takes place.
The mystery changed has no prophetic qualifiers.
Rev 5 (tribulation starts in 6)
9 The redeemed sing a new song in heaven before tribulation begins. (Redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation) all Christians
10 made us into our God kings and priests (all Christians)
Rev 1
5 Unto Him that loved “us” and washed “us” from our sins (all Christians)
6 made us priests and kings (all Christians)
All Christians are up in heaven before tribulation starts.
Jer 30
7 Alas that day is great so that none is like it, it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble. (Israel’s trouble)
Rom 11
25 blindness of Israel until the fullness of the gentiles (blindness until God is done dealing with the rest of the world whole world, gentiles first)
26 and so all Israel “shall be” (future) saved…the Deliverer, and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 covenant unto them…”shall” (future) take away their sins. (A national Jewish salvation. The church is already saved from sin. We don’t have to wait till tribulation to be saved.)
Dan 9
:27 and He shall confirm the covenant with many for 1 week. (7 year tribulation)
:24 70 weeks determined upon “thy” people and upon “thy” holy city to finish the transgression, and to make of sins (Christian’s sins don’t take 70 weeks to be forgiven? No.)
:25-26 7 weeks and three score and 2 weeks and after three score and 2 weeks (69 weeks + Jesus + 1 week-tribulation :27)
2Thes 2 ( used as proof text of no pre-trib but…)
:1 Coming of Christ “and our gathering.” (2 events)
:2 …not be shaken… that the Day of Christ “is at hand” (cannot happen at any moment? Cause of :3. Paul is saying don’t let anyone deceive you that the rapture is already here/happened. People were worried they missed it. That is the context for :3) 2nd coming.
:3 that day shall not come until falling away first (falling away is underway now) and man of sin revealed. (Antichrist) 2 coming.
:8 …shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2nd coming.
Rom 13
:11 knowing the time that is now…salvation nearer than we believed.
:12 night is far spent, the “day IS at hand” (contradiction? No, “any moment”)
At hand has two meanings, any moment and already here.
2Thes 1
:8 …taking vengeance on “them that know not God, and that obey not” the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Believers are already in heaven)
:10-12 speaks to the unbelievers in the tribulation, it is addressed to them and they (others), not we (us believers).
:13 but we (us believers) are bound to give thanks always to God…from the beginning chosen you to salvation
:14 …to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 3
:4 When Christ , who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear with Him in glory.
:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (With Christ in heaven).
Tribulation = hardship. Believers are in tribulation right now.
Rev2
:10 …tribulation 10 days…(tribulation is not 10 days long) this tribulation is general hardship.
:21 For then shall be “great tribulation” such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , nor shall ever be. The 7 year tribulation is far worse and separate from any “previous tribulation.”
Jesus and Paul teach Pre-Trib
1Thes 5
:4 ye “bretheren are not” in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (Not overtaken unawares)
:7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night and they that are drunken are drunk at night. (Believers are not drunken)
:9-10 …not appointed to wrath, but obtain salvation…awake or asleep we should live together with Him. (Believers are not appointed)
Luk21
:21 Then let them which are IN Judaea
:22 …days of vengeance…
:23 …in those days! For there shall be great distress and “wrath” upon His people.
:34 take heed to yourselves, lest any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
:35 for as a snare shall it come upon them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
:36 Watch ye therefor, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man.
I have a bit more but honestly if you even gotten this far, and you still aren’t influenced then why bother.
We shall have a laugh together when we meet in Heaven. All that matters is that we get there. The specific events or the order in which they happen are fun to discuss and debate but of little importance in the grand scheme of our salvation. Be well brother!
I'm super busy. I don't have time to go through all your presuppositions and misconceptions but you are not taking historical events into account and it's leaving you to massive errors.
Ouch! I feel a bit bruised after that. I apologize in advance for formatting errors as I am copy/pasting from my phone Notes app. I have tried correcting the vast majority of them but it is getting tiring.
A couple Non Bible historical evidences
Irenaeus - Against Heresies 5.29 - 2nd century: And therefor when in the end the church shall be suddenly caught up from this. It is said there shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning neither shall be. For this this is the last contest of the righteous for when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Ephraim 4th century - “On the Last Times” - See that the sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares woe to those who desire to see of the Day of the Lord. For all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion overwhelm the world because of our sins.
Apostolic Bretheren 13th/14th centuries.
Dispensationalism before Darby
Ancient Dispensationalism
Alas. You requested only Bible references so take the following Biblical references under consideration…
1A) a foundational doctrine in the New Testament
1B) Why does the Rapture need to happen? It is a church event. Predominately gentile event.
Jesus welcomes the church to heaven. John 14:1-3
It marks the completion of the church’s work. Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost to build the church and finishes by presenting the church to Christ at his appearing. Jude 1:24-25
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8A Holy Spirit steps aside and fills the 144,000 witnesses (Jews). Then the AC is revealed after the rapture of the church.
1C) What purpose does the Rapture serve?
Serves as an Exhortation to all believers to be watchful and ready. Paul says “we who are alive and remain” Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.
Consummation of the church: 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Fulfills the promises of God to deliver us from THE WRATH to come.
1 Thessalonians Paul teaches the predestination based upon the foreknowledge of God and the rapture.
2 Thessalonians came out of fear that Thessalonica missed the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Enoch was raptured.
Elijah was raptured
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2A) How will the Rapture happen? 1 Corinthians 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump…
2B) What will happen to those left behind? 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
When will the rapture happen? 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Differences between Pre and Rapture. One umbrella covers both. Each one is from its own perspective. Bride of Christ (the church) it is an imminent event with no prerequisites and for Tribulation saints (not members of the body of the church) there are prerequisits.
The Rapture:
Christ appears in the air for His church
The catching up of all believers takes place
The church age believers are taken to the Father’s house in Heaven
There is no judgement that takes place on earth
The church is physically gathered
Only the rapture is taught as being imminent.
There are no signs preceding it
Will only involve believers
It is a time of great joy and rejoicing
Happens before the tribulation period
There is no mention of satan
Only those looking for him will see him
The tribulation begins
Takes us to the marriage of Lamb and bride
There is a metamorphosis to all believers
The second coming:
Christ returns to earth with his church
No one is caught anywhere
Believers are not taken to the Father’s house in heaven
Christ judges all inhabitants of the earth
Jesus Christ gathers the nations on to judge
Happens for at least 7 years later
There are 100’s of signs
Affects all of humanity
It is time of violence
It happens immediately after the the tribulation period
Satan bound for a thousand years
Then every eye will see him
The tribulation ends
Jesus Christ and the bride descending
It happens immediately after the tribulation period, so no metamorphosis?
Hebrews 9:28 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Philippians 3:20 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, 4
1 Thessalonians 4
Mat 24 (speaks of 2nd advent)
1Cor 15 (Pre-Trib)
Paul’s mystery-We are Changed
Rev 5 (tribulation starts in 6)
Jer 30
Rom 11
Dan 9
2Thes 2 ( used as proof text of no pre-trib but…)
Rom 13
2Thes 1
Col 3
Tribulation = hardship. Believers are in tribulation right now.
Rev2
See next post…
Continued…
Mat24
Jesus and Paul teach Pre-Trib
1Thes 5
:4 ye “bretheren are not” in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (Not overtaken unawares)
:7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night and they that are drunken are drunk at night. (Believers are not drunken)
:9-10 …not appointed to wrath, but obtain salvation…awake or asleep we should live together with Him. (Believers are not appointed)
Luk21
:21 Then let them which are IN Judaea
:22 …days of vengeance…
:23 …in those days! For there shall be great distress and “wrath” upon His people.
:34 take heed to yourselves, lest any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
:35 for as a snare shall it come upon them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
:36 Watch ye therefor, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man.
I have a bit more but honestly if you even gotten this far, and you still aren’t influenced then why bother.
We shall have a laugh together when we meet in Heaven. All that matters is that we get there. The specific events or the order in which they happen are fun to discuss and debate but of little importance in the grand scheme of our salvation. Be well brother!
Numbersz 6:24-26.
I'm super busy. I don't have time to go through all your presuppositions and misconceptions but you are not taking historical events into account and it's leaving you to massive errors.
I'll end with this recommendation....
https://a.co/d/0ed7Vh5n
In other words, he dunked on your ass, and you can't handle it.
😂 if that's what you want to think to feel better about your position, go for it.
Some of us have jobs, families, and flocks to care for.