God is sovereign over everything. He laid out this timeline before the foundation of the world.
God wins isn't just something Q says, it's the theme of the entire bible.
God's favorite Bible verse is "Sit at my right hand while I make all your enemies your footstool" to Jesus. This versus repeated through scripture more times than any other.
Every knee will bend, and every time will confess that Jesus is Lord.
The Bible teaches us that in the last days it'll be like the days of Noah. Who was swept up and taken off the Earth in the days of Noah? The wicked.
Calvin was a theologian who attempted to reconcile his own understanding of specific scriptures and proposed a theology in which everything is pre-determined, or predestined. That's calvin's theology. But this theological view has to discard many other scriptures that contradict that view.
Some people like that theological view, because it gives them a sense of security and comfort. Myself, I don't think that Calvinistic predestination is accurate at all. And, my sense of security, confidence and comfort in God comes from my relationship with God, not the theological view that He predestines and predetermins everything.
I know he doesn't because He gave me free will. In doing that, he also gave me responsibility. If there is no free will, there is no responsibility, and God is responsible for everything, including all the evil results and including also that the 'wicked will be damned'.
The Father I know is not that Father. He predestines no one to damnation. Such a God would not be a Father of love, but a father of abuse.
I do appreciate that many believers embrace and adopt that theology. Myself, I think it reflects an immaturity in heart and an immature understanding of God, and actually how great and profound God's love is. But that's my opinion, and my faith.
My comment was about eschatological (end times) viewpoints not predestination but since you brought it up.....
I've never read Calvin. I avoid doing so for just this reason. My position on salvation is from scripture and how God saved me when I didn't want to be saved.
When we are "dead in our sin" it's an act of God that transforms us. "No one seeks after God, no not one"
Saying you have free will to chose God goes against your nature. It's God's grace that saves us, not our own free will. Just like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. Did Lazarus have anything to do with it? No. Did God violate his free will to live? No. That was beyond Lazarus's ability to chose just like us when we are dead in our sin.
I didn't choose God. It was the last thing I wanted at the time. I was a militant athiest and hostile towards God and Christianity. But God chose me anyways, showed me my sin, brought me to repentance, and gave me a heart of flesh to replace my heart of stone. It was a radical transformation on the floor in front of a window. 20 years of drug addiction broken in an unwanted instant. The only thing I contributed to my salvation was the sin that required a savior. My humility knowing that truth and my awe of God's amazing grace is that much more. I hope you come to know that yourself. I won't call you immature in the process however.
The Father I know is not that Father. He predestines no one to damnation. Such a God would not be a Father of love, but a father of abuse.
You forgot that justice is one of His qualities. The real question you should be asking is why He would chose to save any of us. I'd suggest reading The Potter's Freedom to better understand the fact that God makes some vessels to contain His wrath and some to save.
Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation ....
John 6:44...
No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Proverbs 16:4...
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 16:9...
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
Proverbs 19:21...
There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
Proverbs 20:24...
Man’s goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?
Proverbs 21:1...
The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Job 42:2...
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Isaiah 14:24...
The Lord of host hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isaiah 14:27...
For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isaiah 46:9-10...
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 48:3...
I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
Jeremiah 1:5...
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Psalms 139:16...
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
John 3:3...
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5...
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:27...
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 6:39...
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:45...
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:64-65...
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 8:47...
He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 10:14...
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:16...
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:26-29...
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 13:18...
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 14:6...
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 15:16...
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
John 15:19...
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:2-3...
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is eternal life, that they might know thee only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:6...
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9-12...
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou hast given me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:16...
They are not of this world, even as I am not of this world.
Acts 13:48...
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Romans 8:28-30...
And we know all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:3...
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Galatians 1:15-16...
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Ephesians 1:4-5...
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11...
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:8-9...
For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14...
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 1:9....
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
1 Peter 1:20-21...
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1 Peter 2:2...
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 2:1-5...
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Revelation 17:8...
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Job 37:16...
Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Psalm 147:5...
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
1 Corinthians 3:6-7...
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Proverbs 16:33...
The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Isaiah 45:7...
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Genesis 6:5...
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Thanks for the great reply. I'm very interested in hearing personal experiences of salvation, and my comments were not meant to be demeaning or dismissive of your views.
I continue to hold the view that the predestination view (which is to say that God decides everything) is a partial or immature view of God and His salvation process and salvation grace, etc.
It's a complex subject; if it wasn't, would there be more than 500+ denominations, all varying in their theological interpretation of scripture, not to mention the millions of variations that are not formalized in theological texts or teachings, but adopted by faithful Christians throughout history and the world over?
Because it is a complex subject, I think it can be very challenging to discuss it in a meaningful way, because in many cases (not all) a common framework needs to be achieved and indeed constructed before different views can even be understood.
For example, "God is sovereign over everything". What this means to you and what this means to me be can be (and it seems are) very different things.
HOW we understand God's sovereignty, in other words. Even if we agree on certain statements expressed in words, what our concepts are of those things can differ and often do.
I'm usually quite happy to discuss such matters - actually, my favorite topic in the world - because I believe that there are aspects of truth and accordingly value found in every perspective. The tricky thing is sifting the wheat from the chaff.
Moreover, the fact that you threw 50 verses of scripture at me as if this somehow proves your personal view and interpretation isn't encouraging. I almost wrote a note on this sort of thing at the end of my comment, but decided to omit it.
But I'll add the note here, seeing as your reply raises a very relevant context.
But firstly, let me disclaim one thing:
I do not believe that differences in theological outlook are of primary concern to our Father. I believe he is much more concerned with the content of our hearts.
The note is this
I do believe that every single believer is responsible and has a choice as to what they believe.
After reflecting on belief, faith and scripture for more than 20 years, I realized that some believers do not even acknowledge that. They say "I believe THIS because the Bible says THIS", where THIS = the same thing. They fail to acknowledge or recognize that they choose to understand the scripture they are looking at in a particular way. Thus, they negate their own human agency, created by God.
I'll give you an example. You cut out a key point (in my opinion).
you wrote: "Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
What you didn't write, or acknowledge, is that "Scripture is clear to me: God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
You've managed to make YOUR statement of faith as if it is an absolute thing, regardless of you're part in it.
This behavior can lead to unfortunate outcomes. They tend to interpret scripture literally, and, doing so, justify THEIR belief and or understanding s somehow being perfect because it is GOD who decided, not them. They make themselves equivalent to God in the process.
I suspect you do not agree with this view, and that's OK. Maybe your think your view is infallible? I don't know, but I'm curious. Because, to my way of thinking, if I can admit that I am fallible, then I have to admit that maybe, it's possible, that how I understand scripture is fallible too.
Some people simply cannot do that, because (I believe) they are not secure enough in their relationship with God through love. At least, that's what I've observed. IF we admit that our understanding of truth MIGHT be fallible, we also admit that a) we can learn and grow in that understanding, b) that I am responsible to some extent for what I choose to believe, c) that I can learn through others if I pay attention, and d) that God trusts me.
This IS a rather deep point, arrived at over many years of a living relationship with faith and with our Father.
Thank you for the suggestion to read the Potter's Freedom.
As I said before, and I do not mean this disparagingly, I'm merely being frank and honest, I wonder if there is any use in discussing or sharing if you are convinced of your own infallibility in terms of how you understand scripture? It might sound like a backhanded compliment, but for me, there is a direct connection with recognizing my own fallibility and honoring God's grace and trust in me.
Either way, I'll try, and await your response.
One topic is salvation. In my view, you have confused God's grace and authority over us with our own responsibility. I mean, I could also quote scripture, but I don't want to get in a scripture flinging match. (In my view, that's often driven by arrogance and frankly I find it disrespectful to God's scripture.) Having said that "knock and the door will be opened".
Who creates the door? God and Christ. Can we create the door? No. But who knocks on the door? We do.
My point is not that God is not sovereign (He is) and not that we can somehow achieve salvation by our own means (we cannot). Rather, that part of God's design and grace is that His work is a shared project. God creates us, then as a free gift to us (not one that we can earn or otherwise), he grants to us a role in his work. As for example, a Father might when he builds a house and then says to his little boy, when it is all but complete, "Come here, Jacob, and hit this nail into the hinge here on the front door". When Jacob hits the nail in, then from that moment forward, his father can say "my son and I created this door. It's ours."
I understand you don't believe this (if I'm reading your correctly) and I'm not attempting to convince you that this is true. I'm sharing with an open heart how I understand God, our Father. If there is anything to learn from that, or any benefit from sharing in that way, well, that's up to you to decide.
I say this also because the value and love I feel for others, including you, is not determined by whether I think they understand truth enough or not (no one but the Father and Christ have a perfect understanding, in my view). So I have no bone in attempting to convince anyone else. Indeed, that's certainly something I leave up to God. Because he loves you and I also, not based on our understanding of scripture (in my view), but based on the content of our hearts. Or to be more correct, God's love for you and I is unconditional, but the contents of our hearts is far more precious to him than our understanding of scripture.
Why? Because our understanding of scripture can become the very thing that blocks us from a relationship with God, if we allow it to stand in the central position in our hearts, instead of love and instead of God.
How do I know? Aside from life experience, I'll refer to the example of the Jewish leaders at Jesus' time. They valued their own view of scripture more than love. They were convinced they were infallible in their understanding of scripture, and it prevented them from even responding to Jesus. Instead, those who knew almost nothing of scripture or who had very limited knowledge of scripture compared to the scribes, etc, DID respond to Jesus. They became his disciples.
So Jesus ministry itself is lesson in what kind of attitude we should have towards our own view of scripture vs what kind of heart we have.
I understand that you believe God chose you and that you were not a factor. There is nothing wrong with having deep humility before God, as long as that humility does not evolve into arrogance of thinking in a way that prevents God from opening up NEW understanding to us.
And, I mean, how do you know? Really? I accept your conviction, but do you know everything? No. You know what you know, and you do not know what you do not know.
Is it possible that God saw certain aspects of your character in childhood? When you were 2? Or 5? or 10? Things that you yourself have forgotten? Or that you may have not even been aware of? Sure. Who is to know that there was not some part of your heart that actually longed for God? Or maybe you know everything?
Here's a secret. In every single heart, there is a part that longs for and desires to reach out to God, to be embraced and loved and valued.
In my experience, you don't become an atheist or an addict without there being some cause in trauma, anguish or suffering. Again, I'm certainly NOT denying God's agency here. I'm not saying that you can define everything or what God does or doesn't do. God is free.
The real point here is that we children of God are created as responsive creatures. That's our nature. We did not create our universe, and we did not give birth to ourselves. But we DO co-create with the Father, by the choices we make.
Our believing in Jesus is the work of God, something we ourselves can perform.
Anyway, your story of being redeemed is wonderful. It's powerful. Personally, I believe there is much more waiting for you and I both. I liken salvation to a doorway. Christ provides the door, but we do have a role, and once we walk through the door, but part of what comes after is shaped by us together with God (in my view).
I appreciate the sense that you were dead in sin and that God plucked you out of it. It's an amazing story of Grace.
And, at the end of the day, beyond all rational thought or logic, the simple fact (perhaps you and I can both agree on this?) is that salvation is an unfathomable miracle.
Your salvation (which is God's alone to give) may have come to you because of the virtue of others. It may have been prayers you are unaware of. It may have been a choice you actually made as a child. Or the great virtue of your ancestors moved God's heart. (This is not to say one can cause one's own salvation - one cannot) Or simply God's incredible heart moved in pity because of your suffering. What made God decide to rescue you? Have you ever asked him?
In conclusion, I'd like to respond to the 50 quotes you kind of threw at me. I'll offer one back.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
.....
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I'm sure you know where this is from.
A blessing on you brother. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate your heart to share how you understand God's truth.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm on mobile right now so I can't even hope to address it all.
We can both agree this isn't a salvific issue and we are both in Christ.
I'll say this; "God is sovereign" seems to be clear. There don't seem to be any exceptions in scripture like "God is sovereign except over X" The verses I shared from my viewpoint, seem quite clear. When I became a Christian I didn't know what Calvinism was or what TULIP or predestination was. I knew that I was dragged kicking and screaming against my will / nature into Christ through nothing I did on my own. One that happened I wouldn't change a thing but it was not something I wanted at the time at all.
Yes people were praying for me, especially my Grandmother. But prayer from another person still requires God to act so that doesn't change anything. He is still the one to save if that was the case. Yes even my groans and despair were calls to God since that is the nature of every groan. But I didn't chose Him, He chose me.
I went from 20+ year drug addict / dealer / supplier in and out of jail / prison to radically transformed. I was dead in my sin and Jesus breathed new life into me and commanded me to ride up and serve Him. Who am I to question God at that point?
Within a couple of years God lead me to my now home church, Apologia with Jeff Durbin & Dr James White. Along the way I saw in scripture some of those verses and recognized that's what happened to me. People had been telling me "I made a choice" or "decided to turn my life around" and things like that and I always said "No, God did it. He saved me. He transformed me when I didn't want it." But the scripture showed me what really happened. Then I learned more about predestination, aka Calvinism, and it just fit.
God gave me a unique skill set that that church needed and put me exactly where I'm supposed to be to serve in His perfect timing after raising me up. My weakness and struggles equipped me to serve Christians and non-Christians all over the continent and beyond in ways that no one else I know can and in a way I really wish I could share with you but I can't. Let's just say that I've helped alot of Christians, pastors, families, and missionaries in the last year be able to move about freely.
Bless you as well. God wins and Christ is king and making all His enemies His footstool and we're alive to watch it front row.
God is sovereign over everything. He laid out this timeline before the foundation of the world.
God wins isn't just something Q says, it's the theme of the entire bible.
God's favorite Bible verse is "Sit at my right hand while I make all your enemies your footstool" to Jesus. This versus repeated through scripture more times than any other.
Every knee will bend, and every time will confess that Jesus is Lord.
The Bible teaches us that in the last days it'll be like the days of Noah. Who was swept up and taken off the Earth in the days of Noah? The wicked.
AMEN!! Perfectly said. 🙏🙌 u/Datasinc
777
Calvin was a theologian who attempted to reconcile his own understanding of specific scriptures and proposed a theology in which everything is pre-determined, or predestined. That's calvin's theology. But this theological view has to discard many other scriptures that contradict that view.
Some people like that theological view, because it gives them a sense of security and comfort. Myself, I don't think that Calvinistic predestination is accurate at all. And, my sense of security, confidence and comfort in God comes from my relationship with God, not the theological view that He predestines and predetermins everything.
I know he doesn't because He gave me free will. In doing that, he also gave me responsibility. If there is no free will, there is no responsibility, and God is responsible for everything, including all the evil results and including also that the 'wicked will be damned'.
The Father I know is not that Father. He predestines no one to damnation. Such a God would not be a Father of love, but a father of abuse.
I do appreciate that many believers embrace and adopt that theology. Myself, I think it reflects an immaturity in heart and an immature understanding of God, and actually how great and profound God's love is. But that's my opinion, and my faith.
My comment was about eschatological (end times) viewpoints not predestination but since you brought it up.....
I've never read Calvin. I avoid doing so for just this reason. My position on salvation is from scripture and how God saved me when I didn't want to be saved.
When we are "dead in our sin" it's an act of God that transforms us. "No one seeks after God, no not one"
Saying you have free will to chose God goes against your nature. It's God's grace that saves us, not our own free will. Just like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. Did Lazarus have anything to do with it? No. Did God violate his free will to live? No. That was beyond Lazarus's ability to chose just like us when we are dead in our sin.
I didn't choose God. It was the last thing I wanted at the time. I was a militant athiest and hostile towards God and Christianity. But God chose me anyways, showed me my sin, brought me to repentance, and gave me a heart of flesh to replace my heart of stone. It was a radical transformation on the floor in front of a window. 20 years of drug addiction broken in an unwanted instant. The only thing I contributed to my salvation was the sin that required a savior. My humility knowing that truth and my awe of God's amazing grace is that much more. I hope you come to know that yourself. I won't call you immature in the process however.
You forgot that justice is one of His qualities. The real question you should be asking is why He would chose to save any of us. I'd suggest reading The Potter's Freedom to better understand the fact that God makes some vessels to contain His wrath and some to save.
Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation ....
Thanks for the great reply. I'm very interested in hearing personal experiences of salvation, and my comments were not meant to be demeaning or dismissive of your views.
I continue to hold the view that the predestination view (which is to say that God decides everything) is a partial or immature view of God and His salvation process and salvation grace, etc.
It's a complex subject; if it wasn't, would there be more than 500+ denominations, all varying in their theological interpretation of scripture, not to mention the millions of variations that are not formalized in theological texts or teachings, but adopted by faithful Christians throughout history and the world over?
Because it is a complex subject, I think it can be very challenging to discuss it in a meaningful way, because in many cases (not all) a common framework needs to be achieved and indeed constructed before different views can even be understood.
For example, "God is sovereign over everything". What this means to you and what this means to me be can be (and it seems are) very different things.
HOW we understand God's sovereignty, in other words. Even if we agree on certain statements expressed in words, what our concepts are of those things can differ and often do.
I'm usually quite happy to discuss such matters - actually, my favorite topic in the world - because I believe that there are aspects of truth and accordingly value found in every perspective. The tricky thing is sifting the wheat from the chaff.
Moreover, the fact that you threw 50 verses of scripture at me as if this somehow proves your personal view and interpretation isn't encouraging. I almost wrote a note on this sort of thing at the end of my comment, but decided to omit it.
But I'll add the note here, seeing as your reply raises a very relevant context.
But firstly, let me disclaim one thing:
I do not believe that differences in theological outlook are of primary concern to our Father. I believe he is much more concerned with the content of our hearts.
The note is this
I do believe that every single believer is responsible and has a choice as to what they believe.
After reflecting on belief, faith and scripture for more than 20 years, I realized that some believers do not even acknowledge that. They say "I believe THIS because the Bible says THIS", where THIS = the same thing. They fail to acknowledge or recognize that they choose to understand the scripture they are looking at in a particular way. Thus, they negate their own human agency, created by God.
I'll give you an example. You cut out a key point (in my opinion).
you wrote: "Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
What you didn't write, or acknowledge, is that "Scripture is clear to me: God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
You've managed to make YOUR statement of faith as if it is an absolute thing, regardless of you're part in it.
This behavior can lead to unfortunate outcomes. They tend to interpret scripture literally, and, doing so, justify THEIR belief and or understanding s somehow being perfect because it is GOD who decided, not them. They make themselves equivalent to God in the process.
I suspect you do not agree with this view, and that's OK. Maybe your think your view is infallible? I don't know, but I'm curious. Because, to my way of thinking, if I can admit that I am fallible, then I have to admit that maybe, it's possible, that how I understand scripture is fallible too.
Some people simply cannot do that, because (I believe) they are not secure enough in their relationship with God through love. At least, that's what I've observed. IF we admit that our understanding of truth MIGHT be fallible, we also admit that a) we can learn and grow in that understanding, b) that I am responsible to some extent for what I choose to believe, c) that I can learn through others if I pay attention, and d) that God trusts me.
This IS a rather deep point, arrived at over many years of a living relationship with faith and with our Father.
Thank you for the suggestion to read the Potter's Freedom.
As I said before, and I do not mean this disparagingly, I'm merely being frank and honest, I wonder if there is any use in discussing or sharing if you are convinced of your own infallibility in terms of how you understand scripture? It might sound like a backhanded compliment, but for me, there is a direct connection with recognizing my own fallibility and honoring God's grace and trust in me.
Either way, I'll try, and await your response.
One topic is salvation. In my view, you have confused God's grace and authority over us with our own responsibility. I mean, I could also quote scripture, but I don't want to get in a scripture flinging match. (In my view, that's often driven by arrogance and frankly I find it disrespectful to God's scripture.) Having said that "knock and the door will be opened".
Who creates the door? God and Christ. Can we create the door? No. But who knocks on the door? We do.
My point is not that God is not sovereign (He is) and not that we can somehow achieve salvation by our own means (we cannot). Rather, that part of God's design and grace is that His work is a shared project. God creates us, then as a free gift to us (not one that we can earn or otherwise), he grants to us a role in his work. As for example, a Father might when he builds a house and then says to his little boy, when it is all but complete, "Come here, Jacob, and hit this nail into the hinge here on the front door". When Jacob hits the nail in, then from that moment forward, his father can say "my son and I created this door. It's ours."
I understand you don't believe this (if I'm reading your correctly) and I'm not attempting to convince you that this is true. I'm sharing with an open heart how I understand God, our Father. If there is anything to learn from that, or any benefit from sharing in that way, well, that's up to you to decide.
I say this also because the value and love I feel for others, including you, is not determined by whether I think they understand truth enough or not (no one but the Father and Christ have a perfect understanding, in my view). So I have no bone in attempting to convince anyone else. Indeed, that's certainly something I leave up to God. Because he loves you and I also, not based on our understanding of scripture (in my view), but based on the content of our hearts. Or to be more correct, God's love for you and I is unconditional, but the contents of our hearts is far more precious to him than our understanding of scripture.
Why? Because our understanding of scripture can become the very thing that blocks us from a relationship with God, if we allow it to stand in the central position in our hearts, instead of love and instead of God.
How do I know? Aside from life experience, I'll refer to the example of the Jewish leaders at Jesus' time. They valued their own view of scripture more than love. They were convinced they were infallible in their understanding of scripture, and it prevented them from even responding to Jesus. Instead, those who knew almost nothing of scripture or who had very limited knowledge of scripture compared to the scribes, etc, DID respond to Jesus. They became his disciples.
So Jesus ministry itself is lesson in what kind of attitude we should have towards our own view of scripture vs what kind of heart we have.
I understand that you believe God chose you and that you were not a factor. There is nothing wrong with having deep humility before God, as long as that humility does not evolve into arrogance of thinking in a way that prevents God from opening up NEW understanding to us.
And, I mean, how do you know? Really? I accept your conviction, but do you know everything? No. You know what you know, and you do not know what you do not know.
Is it possible that God saw certain aspects of your character in childhood? When you were 2? Or 5? or 10? Things that you yourself have forgotten? Or that you may have not even been aware of? Sure. Who is to know that there was not some part of your heart that actually longed for God? Or maybe you know everything?
Here's a secret. In every single heart, there is a part that longs for and desires to reach out to God, to be embraced and loved and valued.
In my experience, you don't become an atheist or an addict without there being some cause in trauma, anguish or suffering. Again, I'm certainly NOT denying God's agency here. I'm not saying that you can define everything or what God does or doesn't do. God is free.
The real point here is that we children of God are created as responsive creatures. That's our nature. We did not create our universe, and we did not give birth to ourselves. But we DO co-create with the Father, by the choices we make.
Our believing in Jesus is the work of God, something we ourselves can perform.
Anyway, your story of being redeemed is wonderful. It's powerful. Personally, I believe there is much more waiting for you and I both. I liken salvation to a doorway. Christ provides the door, but we do have a role, and once we walk through the door, but part of what comes after is shaped by us together with God (in my view).
I appreciate the sense that you were dead in sin and that God plucked you out of it. It's an amazing story of Grace.
And, at the end of the day, beyond all rational thought or logic, the simple fact (perhaps you and I can both agree on this?) is that salvation is an unfathomable miracle.
Your salvation (which is God's alone to give) may have come to you because of the virtue of others. It may have been prayers you are unaware of. It may have been a choice you actually made as a child. Or the great virtue of your ancestors moved God's heart. (This is not to say one can cause one's own salvation - one cannot) Or simply God's incredible heart moved in pity because of your suffering. What made God decide to rescue you? Have you ever asked him?
In conclusion, I'd like to respond to the 50 quotes you kind of threw at me. I'll offer one back.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
.....
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I'm sure you know where this is from.
A blessing on you brother. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate your heart to share how you understand God's truth.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm on mobile right now so I can't even hope to address it all.
We can both agree this isn't a salvific issue and we are both in Christ.
I'll say this; "God is sovereign" seems to be clear. There don't seem to be any exceptions in scripture like "God is sovereign except over X" The verses I shared from my viewpoint, seem quite clear. When I became a Christian I didn't know what Calvinism was or what TULIP or predestination was. I knew that I was dragged kicking and screaming against my will / nature into Christ through nothing I did on my own. One that happened I wouldn't change a thing but it was not something I wanted at the time at all.
Yes people were praying for me, especially my Grandmother. But prayer from another person still requires God to act so that doesn't change anything. He is still the one to save if that was the case. Yes even my groans and despair were calls to God since that is the nature of every groan. But I didn't chose Him, He chose me.
I went from 20+ year drug addict / dealer / supplier in and out of jail / prison to radically transformed. I was dead in my sin and Jesus breathed new life into me and commanded me to ride up and serve Him. Who am I to question God at that point?
Within a couple of years God lead me to my now home church, Apologia with Jeff Durbin & Dr James White. Along the way I saw in scripture some of those verses and recognized that's what happened to me. People had been telling me "I made a choice" or "decided to turn my life around" and things like that and I always said "No, God did it. He saved me. He transformed me when I didn't want it." But the scripture showed me what really happened. Then I learned more about predestination, aka Calvinism, and it just fit.
God gave me a unique skill set that that church needed and put me exactly where I'm supposed to be to serve in His perfect timing after raising me up. My weakness and struggles equipped me to serve Christians and non-Christians all over the continent and beyond in ways that no one else I know can and in a way I really wish I could share with you but I can't. Let's just say that I've helped alot of Christians, pastors, families, and missionaries in the last year be able to move about freely.
Bless you as well. God wins and Christ is king and making all His enemies His footstool and we're alive to watch it front row.