First, I am Catholic, and so is this other guy.
I responded to him and asked, "Do you remember how you felt when the first news about Catholic priest abuses in Boston broke, a couple of decades ago?"
He replied, "I was sort of numbed with disbelief."
"Okay," I continued, "and have you ever thought about how such a scandal could exist for so long, not to mention other scandals? Have you ever thought about the power structure at the top levels of the church administration that manipulated things to keep all the scandals a secret?"
"I guess I never thought of it that way," he replied.
"Well, " I said, "do you think that the the Catholic church is the only entity in the history of the world to have a power structure, and secret scandals, etc.?"
Silence.
"And so," I added, "by simple extrapolation, I am confident that a relatively tiny number of people in the highest positions among the governments, corporations and other institutions are all busy pushing their agendas, and protecting their secrets. And if that's true, it's probably just as true that an even higher level of controllers are orchestrating things to their advantage and to further their agenda."
Deer in the headlights stare.
So your attempting to communicate with spirits of the dead. Yeah thats not a good argument.
What part about Jesus saying "only through ME" did you not understand. Those prayers from Mary you requested to patch through to the Father was in vain. You should have asked Jesus Christ to pray for us. He's still alive and well.
Still dogding the question. WHY NO GRANDMOTHER OF GRACE? IS SHE NOT JUST AS IMPORTANT?
"so your attempting to communicate with spirits of the dead."
Uh, not really. Last I checked the whole fucking POINT of Christianity eternal life.
"What part about Jesus saying "only through ME" did you not understand." Oh, I understand it perfectly. Mary won't get me to heaven. Jesus will. But shitting on Catholics for asking her to pray for us is like shitting on a friend for asking you to pray for them. It's intercession and as far as I know intercession is perfectly okay.
"Hey buddy you kind saying a prayer for me I'm going through a tough time. Anything helps." "WeLl WhY dOnT yOu AsK jEsUs hUrR dUrR"
"Grandmother of grace" is a bullshit strawman fallacy and you know it. Let me ask you a question, do you really think it makes Jesus happy when people shit on his mother? And downplay her importance?
Yes exactly..."why don't you ask Jesus?" Very telling how you profile the Father's instructions as "retarded"
I never said that but cool of you to put words in my mouth.
I said it would be foolish to tell your friend that you refuse to pray for them. Because you seem to have a big ass problem with praying for other people. Intercession for others is mentioned REPEATEDLY in the new testament but you clearly don't understand that simple fact.
You know I'm saying you can ask a human dead or alive in faith to communicate to the father on your behalf.
You furthered that point and don't realize it.
You can't have faith they will do shit, like you eloquently stated, they may be dicks or they may simply forget, humans are imperfect. You can keep hoping and wishing those prays you ask someone else to perform. Go ahead and have faith in mankind I'm sticking to reserving that kind of faith for my savior Jesus Christ. Have fun with your many faiths.
"WeLl WhY dOnT yOu AsK jEsUs hUrR dUrR" - redlotus69
Until the resurrection for judgment, she's dead. We all take dirt naps until the big wakeup and judgment. Some awaken to eternal condemnation and others to salvation and eternal life.
Also no one downplayed her role but her role is no more important than yours or mine. Sorry to dissapoint.
So you admit you catagorize her mother as so unimportant you demote her to a strawman argument instead of explaining why she isn't that important vs. is important to ask to pray for us? Ah how convenient. Also only through Jesus do you get communication to the father.
Show me where it states in the Bible we are commanded to inquire upon man, in reverence and faith, living or dead to communicate with the father on our behalf. That is something the other party is to take upon themselves for all peoples and they are to ask Christ to commicate to the father not any other proxy.
Also nice try with the misdirection you know I was referring to the command that Jesus is the ONLY way to speak to the father (not just solely for salvation purposes but also solely for communication purposes) and ONlY one who we are to have faith in to speak to the father on our behalf. But I think you knew that.. No man living or dead shall our faith rely on for this tasks. Period.
The Father is very specific. Any deviation from what he has commanded should put the fear if God in yall. But it seems you guys are very comfortable making your own rites and rituals up along the way. Can't play politics with one that is absolute.
Is John 14:6 the only verse you know? Because I don't get why you're so fixated on it. Nobody's saying Mary will get you into heaven so quit bringing it up. It's not fucking RELEVANT. And even if that verse DID mean you can only pray to Jesus and not to God directly, Catholics do NOT pray to Mary. Catholics ask her to pray for us. Therefore a sane person would assume she prays to Jesus...
Once again, the entire point of this religion is that Christ can give you eternal life. Mary is no more dead than any other soul in heaven, like Moses or Elijah. And there's no reason to think she never went to heaven. You're either being deliberately difficult or you're just that stupid.
Intercession to saints in heaven has no Biblical basis? How about Revelation 8:3-4? "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel."
"Any deviation from what he has commanded should put the fear if God in yall."
Yeah, okay. Because protestants NEVER deviate...
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You started by saying that Catholics pray to Mary. I said they don't do that now you're saying intercession to people in heaven is non-Biblical. You know what your problem is? You have made up your mind that the Catholic faith is "witchcraft". Nothing I say will ever change your mind. Talking to you has been a complete waste of my damn time. Done with this conversation.
Why do I fixate on Jesus's christ words. What a odd question. His commands are the only thing that you should fixate on. Are you saying people shouldn't.
No one but you said anything about her getting you to heaven why do you keep saying that? Wierd. I said it said no other way you can have faith in to communicate with the father. Stop trying to misdirect the conversation.
Telling how the words of our only savior get you so upset.
Just because protestants do something doesn't make it right. Thats not a good argument. You should be more concerned with what Jesus told you exactly how to do.
You sound like your projecting. Coming from someone indoctrinated by a cult it's hilarious to hear. Funny how you defend your religion more than the words of christ. You rarely speak on him but boy do you tall alot about your rites and rituals. Looks like you love your religion more than your savior.