Yeah, that bugs me about about the "freedom from religion" argument. It violates freedom of speech, among other things.
That's not the kind of freedom from religion im talking about.
I have a Muslim coworker who absolutely LOVES America. I once asked him why it was better than his home country. He said he didn't like being told when to pray, or being pressured (or forced) to do so. He believes that should be between man and God, not man and the state.
I can't argue with his logic.
We still have people coming to this country for religious freedom - both to practice their religion, or to escape from an oppressive one.
Yes, I'm atheist. But I don't think religion is bad. It's like any other tool, or even a firearm - what you DO with religion makes your actions good or bad.
Preach and help the needy, spread you faith with joy, or even showing concern by warning others when you believe bad things are coming? I can't fault you for that. You're genuine and trying to help your fellow man.
Start a commune, abuse women, mary children, give 'em poison drinks, or steal men's wives, or try to start a race war by killing a pregnant woman, or
rename yourself Koresh and then let the feds burn to ashes the people you've promised to protect? Yeah, if there is a hell, some people used religion to get there.
Normal humans just doing their best to believe, live, love, work, fight, and befriend? I've no beef if they want to pray before a football game, or stand in a circle and call to Thor for strength. I've even once participated in a public asatru ritual. I don't believe in the gods or God, but I was invited, and they were a based group of 'folk'. I find it a bit silly, but it's important to THEM. And it was kinda cool.
It's not okay to demand a ten commandment sculpture be removed from a courthouse, and it's not okay to try and restrict the beliefs of other sects, religions, pagans, believers, or force beliefs on non-believers. It's just that simple.
Jesus had it right - would you want someone to do it to you? No? Then don't do it to them.
What If someone else's belief or non belief offends you?
As Matt Gaetz says, "be offended".
The rest of us will get over it. And it's probably our turn to be offended next week. LOL @ humans.
I have a Muslim coworker who absolutely LOVES America. I once asked him why it was better than his home country. He said he didn't like being told when to pray, or being pressured (or forced) to do so. He believes that should be between man and God, not man and the state.
I've noticed that as well, I have some Muslim coworkers and they don't do the whole running off to a corner to pray X times a day at the exact same time like I saw happening at university with some of the Muslim students. I remember one complaining about another coworker (long gone) who was nagging him to come along every time he went to go pray.
On a philosophical level, you have a point. However, for me, there are two important considerations.
Datadude is talking about the pseudo-religious "non-religion" that Atheistic Marxism drives in order to destroy and undermine religion. It's good that you clarify your concept of "freedom from religion", but it needs to be recognized is that there are forces and people out there who will use certain sophistry and presented arguments with a duplicitous agenda; they are not being honest.
Regardless of what they say, their purpose is to destroy religion and religious thought and practice.
But really, what you define as "freedom from religion" is actually "freedom of religion". State-controlled religion is NOT "freedom of religion". Freedom of religion in the United States constitutional context means "government is NOT free to make laws that shape and determine what religious practice is and isn't".
When you say "freedom from religion" you really mean "freedom from religious oppression" don't you?
As is clear from a study of history, despite their many flaws, most of the long-lasting religions have consistency provide significant benefits to the populations that practice them. Religions that upheld certain values declined and were pushed out (i.e. child sacrifice, human sacrifice, etc) and others that upheld certain values prospered and delivered benefits. Many of those benefits you yourself, atheist though you are in terms of your faith, acknowledge. Why? Because they are tangible and real.
Thus, it needs to be recognized that not all religions are "created equal." Some are better than others. Some yield many more benefits than others. And the ones that deliver the greatest benefits are the ones that trend towards enhancing the freedom of individuals and groups to pursue the goals of their religion while upholding the innate rights of others.
It's not a coincidence that the concept of religious freedom evolved in the Christian sphere. Religious freedom is critical to religious practice, because freedom is a core ethic or virtue in Christian teaching.
It's also not a coincidence that the greatest equality of opportunity, value assigned to human life, and other ethical 'miracles' have emerged from the Christian sphere.
In any case, I very much agree with everything you've written except for one simple caveat: that something should not necessarily be tolerated simply because it calls itself 'a religion'. However, if government abstains from attempting to define or control religion, and if the innate (God-given) rights of human beings are upheld (aka people are not forced to practice religion or people are not abused and violated in the name of 'religion') then things would work themselves in rather wonderful way.
Yeah, that bugs me about about the "freedom from religion" argument. It violates freedom of speech, among other things.
That's not the kind of freedom from religion im talking about.
I have a Muslim coworker who absolutely LOVES America. I once asked him why it was better than his home country. He said he didn't like being told when to pray, or being pressured (or forced) to do so. He believes that should be between man and God, not man and the state.
I can't argue with his logic.
We still have people coming to this country for religious freedom - both to practice their religion, or to escape from an oppressive one.
Yes, I'm atheist. But I don't think religion is bad. It's like any other tool, or even a firearm - what you DO with religion makes your actions good or bad.
Preach and help the needy, spread you faith with joy, or even showing concern by warning others when you believe bad things are coming? I can't fault you for that. You're genuine and trying to help your fellow man.
Start a commune, abuse women, mary children, give 'em poison drinks, or steal men's wives, or try to start a race war by killing a pregnant woman, or rename yourself Koresh and then let the feds burn to ashes the people you've promised to protect? Yeah, if there is a hell, some people used religion to get there.
Normal humans just doing their best to believe, live, love, work, fight, and befriend? I've no beef if they want to pray before a football game, or stand in a circle and call to Thor for strength. I've even once participated in a public asatru ritual. I don't believe in the gods or God, but I was invited, and they were a based group of 'folk'. I find it a bit silly, but it's important to THEM. And it was kinda cool.
It's not okay to demand a ten commandment sculpture be removed from a courthouse, and it's not okay to try and restrict the beliefs of other sects, religions, pagans, believers, or force beliefs on non-believers. It's just that simple.
Jesus had it right - would you want someone to do it to you? No? Then don't do it to them.
What If someone else's belief or non belief offends you?
As Matt Gaetz says, "be offended".
The rest of us will get over it. And it's probably our turn to be offended next week. LOL @ humans.
I've noticed that as well, I have some Muslim coworkers and they don't do the whole running off to a corner to pray X times a day at the exact same time like I saw happening at university with some of the Muslim students. I remember one complaining about another coworker (long gone) who was nagging him to come along every time he went to go pray.
I agree with everything you said and I cling to the teachings if Jesus.
On a philosophical level, you have a point. However, for me, there are two important considerations.
Datadude is talking about the pseudo-religious "non-religion" that Atheistic Marxism drives in order to destroy and undermine religion. It's good that you clarify your concept of "freedom from religion", but it needs to be recognized is that there are forces and people out there who will use certain sophistry and presented arguments with a duplicitous agenda; they are not being honest.
Regardless of what they say, their purpose is to destroy religion and religious thought and practice.
But really, what you define as "freedom from religion" is actually "freedom of religion". State-controlled religion is NOT "freedom of religion". Freedom of religion in the United States constitutional context means "government is NOT free to make laws that shape and determine what religious practice is and isn't".
When you say "freedom from religion" you really mean "freedom from religious oppression" don't you?
As is clear from a study of history, despite their many flaws, most of the long-lasting religions have consistency provide significant benefits to the populations that practice them. Religions that upheld certain values declined and were pushed out (i.e. child sacrifice, human sacrifice, etc) and others that upheld certain values prospered and delivered benefits. Many of those benefits you yourself, atheist though you are in terms of your faith, acknowledge. Why? Because they are tangible and real.
Thus, it needs to be recognized that not all religions are "created equal." Some are better than others. Some yield many more benefits than others. And the ones that deliver the greatest benefits are the ones that trend towards enhancing the freedom of individuals and groups to pursue the goals of their religion while upholding the innate rights of others.
It's not a coincidence that the concept of religious freedom evolved in the Christian sphere. Religious freedom is critical to religious practice, because freedom is a core ethic or virtue in Christian teaching.
It's also not a coincidence that the greatest equality of opportunity, value assigned to human life, and other ethical 'miracles' have emerged from the Christian sphere.
In any case, I very much agree with everything you've written except for one simple caveat: that something should not necessarily be tolerated simply because it calls itself 'a religion'. However, if government abstains from attempting to define or control religion, and if the innate (God-given) rights of human beings are upheld (aka people are not forced to practice religion or people are not abused and violated in the name of 'religion') then things would work themselves in rather wonderful way.
Freedom from religious oppression. Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
I've nothing to add.
Wonderful post.