With all the speculation about the 25th Amendment being used against the unlawfully occupying Resident and Vice Resident, it is understandable why Patriots might think that this is a good thing, a way to get a Republican into the Executive Mansion. Get rid of Biden and Harris, and then Speaker McCarthy moves on up!
Before we continue, I can't avoid noting how many people are cheering this development despite having only just last week opposed McCarthy, an alleged swamp creature, becoming Speaker at all. Many wanted and expected Trump to somehow become Speaker to set him up to succeed to the presidency. Yet now everyone seems to be on the "Speaker McCarthy for POTUS" train. Odd how principles shift so quickly when passion and emotion take over...
When it is suggested that Biden and Harris should [or will] be 25th’d, such a double vacancy would have to be the result of 1.) impeachment and removal 2.) death or 3.) resignation, OR 4.) a temporary vacancy due to inability.
As already pointed out, with the Democrats in control of the Senate, we can reasonably rule out scenario 1. Perhaps Biden is suicided or forced to resign a la Nixon, but I think both scenarios 2 and 3 are unlikely. It is possible that Harris+Cabinet may use Section 4 to declare Biden “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office” and move to have Harris as Acting POTUS. But then the same would have to be done to Harris to create a double vacancy. Problem is that with the VP as Acting POTUS, there is no VP to trigger Section 4 (the Amendment’s drafters brain farted on this one), so scenarios 1, 2 or 3 would have to occur. Even if that happened, technically that’s only removing Harris, and if the inability is removed, then Biden resumes POTUS powers.
Even if by some miracle, a double vacancy is achieved, there’s still one massive constitutional problem. Despite being an officer of the House of Representatives, the Speaker is NOT an Officer of the United States of America and thus, not constitutionally eligible to succeed to the presidency.
For those with or willing to create a [free] JSTOR account, you can get a more in-depth study here. For those wanting a quicker read, here’s my shorter summary of the constitutional issues in play.
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected. – US Constitution: Article II, Section 1
The original intent of the Framers was that in the case of presidential vacancy, the VP wouldn’t immediately become POTUS but rather ACTING POTUS. His Ascendancy John Tyler ignored the Constitution and made himself POTUS, much to the objections of John Q. Adams, Henry Clay, the Whigs and even members of his own Cabinet. For whatever reason, nobody had a spine enough to stop Tyler from stealing the office and helping set into motion some major Disunion Dominoes (a story for another post). This issue was finally settled by the ratification of the 25th Amendment, clearly stating that upon a vacancy, “the Vice President shall become President.”
In cases of double vacancy, the Constitution authorized Congress with establishing what would be called the Presidential Succession Order. Congress passed Acts in 1792, 1886 and 1947, with several amendments to the latter, most recently in 2006.
Though the order in the 1792 Act included two members of Congress (President Pro Tempore and Speaker), such order violated the original intent of the Constitution, as was attested by the “Father of the Constitution” (not really the most accurate title, but I digress…) James Madison in both his notes from the Constitutional Convention and in letters such as one to Edmund Pendleton in 1792. For whatever reason, Washington signed the Act and no challenges were made to SCOTUS.
The rise of party factionalism in the 19th Century exposed the massive vulnerability Madison identified in 1792, and wisely in 1886, both President Pro Tempore and Speaker were removed from the order. But a push from the Democrats in 1947 got both put back into the order, albeit reversed from 1792, with Speaker then PPT. Again, nobody has challenged this unconstitutional measure up to SCOTUS, so to date it has not made any ruling on the matter.
But the Constitution is textually and contextually clear that both the Speaker and PPT are officers of the Congress and not “officers” of the USA within the meaning of the term “officer” in Article II. In multiple places in the Constitution, including Amendments, members of Legislature, including its officers, are explicitly differentiated from officers of the USA:
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. – US Constitution: Article II, Section 4
Congress cannot impeach members of Congress. The process for the removal of members from Congress is explicitly covered earlier in Article I of the Constitution:
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Since members of Congress are not relevant to the impeachment section of Article II, thus the reference to “civil Officers of the USA” cannot include members of the Legislature.
The Senators and Representatives [of Congress] before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, AND all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; – US Constitution: Article VI (emphasis added)
Again, Senators and Representatives are differentiated from executive and judicial Officers.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, OR as an officer of the United States, – US Constitution: Amendment XIV, Section 3 (emphasis added)
And again, explicit differentiation between members of Congress and officers of the USA.
Why the dudes on the style committee during the Constitutional Convention removed the “of the United States” from the original draft of Article II, is a mystery. Perhaps they were afraid of hitting a max character limit and thought it was a good way to axe 4 redundant words? In any case, all evidence indicates that without a doubt, the Framers intended the meaning to be “officer [of the United States].”
Again, see the above linked article for a more in-depth textual analysis. Even without the textual arguments, common sense is that allowing a Legislative officer to succeed to the presidency would be a massive violation of the separation of powers doctrine, as well as create a massive vulnerability to be exploited by Party, which was addressed by Madison in his opposition to the 1792 Succession Act.
It would be completely hypocritical for professed Patriots to advocate for the usage of a tactic that would require the violation of the Constitution, regardless of the purported good that such an action might attain. We cannot become the very enemies that we oppose.
That, is correct. Supreme Court has a different zero day dilemma. Got no teeth.
If you do a second post on that, then add bonus points for mentioning Lincoln. People love and hate Lincoln.
Don't get sidetracked on how Lincoln's VP was a Southern Belle and really gained from his death. Slavery too.
Yup. Andrew Johnson was something of a shit. But influential people convinced Lincoln he needed a border state running mate to ensure re-election. The Johnson impeachment actually exposed the massive problem with the then in effect succession order from the 1792 Act, which had President Pro Tempore (PPT) as next up behind VP, which was vacant at the time due to Johnson's elevation and failure to have a replacement VP confirmed.
Guess what the PPT did during that impeachment trial? Voted to remove Johnson! Man was so confident it was going to happen that he literally published a list of those he planned to comprise his cabinet. This was but one of many instances the helped bring about the 1886 Act removing PPT and Speaker from the succession order, back to Madison's and the Framers' originally intended design.
Whether Johnson had a part in Lincoln's murder, I cannot say conclusively... same goes for the next Johnson with JFK. Clearly both personally benefited, but who else benefited more? Cui bono? Answer that question, and you find the real puppet master(s)
Also, keep in mind that Andrew Johnson, despite being from a slave state and owning slaves, HATED the rebels for their treason. Johnson wanted Jeff Davis, Bobby Lee and others hung. He fought for the indictment of rebel leaders for a long time, until pressure was put on him to change his tune. Imo, his desire for indictments of treason were justified. Despite my admiration of Lincoln, I don't fully agree with his 100% mercy approach. Traitors deserve to die a traitors death. Convict them all for treason, but then commune sentences for all but the ring leaders. Because examples were made, Reconstruction was hindered to the point where the rebels were allowed to regain power to reconstitute what amounted to "legalized" slavery.
After that, we got new kinds of slavery. It's was more profitable than old slavery.
You didn't even have to take care of the slave. Just arrest a new one.
I digress or, do I?
I'm sure you could argue slavery died many times.
No need to enslave the body and have to support it, when you can just enslave the mind and the body will follow.
Slavery evolved.
The Black Codes never changed.
They just changed the name to Black Rock, Google, etc.
Control the money, the institutions, the reality, the people.
Indeed. They became the Human Codes. Leftists should marvel at such efforts to promote inclusion and equity.
Harris isn't Qualified to be President, whether it's acting or real, because she doesn't meet the Natural Born requirements at all....
Both parents were Foreigners when she was Born, at best she qualifies to be called ""Naturalized"", but would need All of Congress to remove any other disability....
Biden can be Arrested and charged with Crimes in order to remove him, Harris only needs to be Exposed, and hit with the 25th....
If at least one parent was a naturalized citizens or at the very least a legal permanent resident subject to the jurisdiction of the USA, before she was born, then she would be a natural born citizen under principle of jus sanguinis. But that's the question... were either of her parents citizens or legal permanent residents, as opposed to foreign nationals or vagabonds? The internet doesn't seem to have an answer. All that we are told is that this question doesn't matter because she was born here, so that makes her a natural born citizen under the flawed jus soli interpretation of the Court. Obviously the answer does matter because the Court was wrong back then. Why is the internet void of the answer we're looking for? Curiouser and curiouser.
Wouldn't matter if she was naturalized. Only natural born are eligible. My wife, for instance, despite now being a naturalized citizens, was not born a natural born citizen, so barring a constitutional amendment, she will never be eligible to be POTUS. And consider, if Harris always believed herself to be a natural born citizen, which might not be true if neither parent was in fact a citizen or at least legal permanent resident, then there'd have been no reason for her to go through the naturalization process.
Both could be arrested, convicted and removed. How is Harris hypothetically hit with the 25th? Death? Impeachment? Resignation? How does either of those scenarios happen? Impeachment and removal isn't going to happen with the Senate in the hands of Democrats.
For the reasons stated in the OP, getting Biden and Harris out doesn't really matter as far as the theory that it'll vault McCarthy to the office. Speaker isn't eligible.
The Natural Born Citizen Clause has THREE LEGS that must be accounted for, in order for her to be considered a Natural Born Citizen, and you fucking it up into only TWO LEGS in an attempt to qualify her, is just Wrong, Legally Speaking....
The Qualification is SPECIFICALLY::
Mother must be Naturalized of a Citizen....
PLUS
Father must be Naturalized or a Citizen....
PLUS
She MUST Be born on American Soil....
Remove ANY of these three legs and she is automatically Disqualified, and no question asked....
Simply put, the Argument you pose is just plain Wrong, and it almost the exact same argument that was given to Qualify BrokeBackBarry, except that al of his Records were hidden and placed behind seals so we couldn't easily pull them up and show the World that he is in fact a FOREIGN SPY, and deserves to be directly disqualified, and his entire Presidency made Null and Void....
It fits Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, NoName, BrokeBack Barry, and many others, But with Kameltoe specifically, BOTH of her parents were simply Foreigners with Work Visas....
You say that the Internet doesn't tell us anything about her Parents Citizenship Status....
Bullshit, CT People have been digging into that forever::
by Sharon Rondeau
(May 21, 2021) — On Friday evening the Twitter account “” posted what appears to be a for Donald Jasper Harris, the father of Kamala Harris.
The certificate appears to bear the date stamp “14 SEP 1981,” which, if authentic and accurate, indicates Donald Harris, who was born in Jamaica and arrived in the U.S. on a student visa in the early 1960s, naturalized as an American citizen approximately a month prior to his elder daughter Kamala’s 17th birthday. https://www.thepostemail.com/2021/05/21/was-kamala-harriss-father-naturalized-in-1981/
Shyamala Gopalan, HeelsUp Harris Mother, got her ""Lawful Permanent Residency"", on Oct 20th, 1967, but only as a Lawful Permanent Resident, which is different than Naturalized.... https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/foia/Shyamala_Gopalan_Harris.pdf
What is the difference between permanent residency and naturalization ... https://www.leelawusa.com/blog/2020/09/what-is-the-difference-between-permanent-residency-and-naturalization/ There are many different ways that you may legally enter and live in the United States. Two common options if you want to remain here for the long-term are permanent residency and naturalization. According to Stilt, the rights you have are the biggest difference between these two long-term immigration options. Permanent resident As a permanent....
So you see, NEITHER of her parents were Naturalized when she was Born, meaning that Kamala is only a 14th Amendment Anchor Baby, as well as her sister, and neither are Qualified for President nor Vice President....
If you're going to jump into this arena, please take the tie to look for the Right Questions an their Answers, because we all know just how much the DemonRats love to suppress specific Information....
According to Vattel, yes.
Watch that tone.
According to Blackstone, only required the father be a citizen.
Both Vattel and Blackstone were equally influential on the Framers, but keep in mind that influences are not necessarily authoritative. The Framers didn't always adopt all of the concepts and principles of those they looked to for guidance. On the contrary they often identified flaws in other systems and experiemented to prevent them in the American system (for instance, separation of powers doctrine with independent Executive and Judicial branches, as opposed to a parliamentary system).
Also remember that within the historical context, western civilizations tracked everything in law through fathers. This influence was evidenced in the very first Naturalization Act passed by Congress, which noted only one parent requirement, albeit the father. That statutory law was of course changed over time, and as it applied in the 1960s and today, the one parent requirement can be either father or mother.
Close, but no cigar. He followed in gramps' footsteps... company man 😉
Good stuff there on mother. Docs clearly indicate student visa, then application for nonimmigrant visitor status, already married in US in 1963, and yes no move to naturalization until 1967. According to these docs, she was still a foreign national until then, after daughters were born. Interesting that the husband name was censored out on the 1963 marriage certificate. Also odd that according to multiple forms, she didn't change her last name to Harris until 1966. Weird. We sure Donald Harris was the name on that marriage certificate? What a coincidence that Barry also had lots of questions about his real father...
Some sketchy photo from a random Twitter user? Do you have anything as extensive as there was for Gopalan?
Sufficient evidence does indicate Gopalan wasn't naturalized and still had foreign alien status. But going to need better evidence re: Donald Harris. If you have more, please provide.
If Harris, who we presume really was her father, indeed also hadn't been naturalized by the time she was born, then 100% absolutely she is ineligible.
After our previous interaction over your Lost Cause discipleship, you're on thin ice as it is. Be nice fren.
Ok, so ""Blackstone"" has his place, but America is NOT Britain....
In America we use more Vattel then Blackstone, so any shit you get from Blackstone, is just that, shit, and needs to be thrown out due to newer and better adjustments of Law....
Have you researched the Qualifications to become a Citizen???
NOPE....
Have you broken down the 14th amendment to see what is actually in it, seriously broken it down into like ""Terms"" instead of just Words, nope, didn't think so...
There is soo much that we do not know about all of this shit Law that has been created since the civil, egh er, Lincolns War against the states, that our HERITAGE, directly from the Founders, the Knowledge of Law, that has been stripped from us, if you chose to look for it, will blow your mind....
At one time there were only TWO BOOKS needed in a house/Home, The Bible, and Bouviers 1856 Law Dictionary made for the U.S. Constitution and other laws, but all that ended with Lincoln and his war against the States, which subjugated ALL the States equally under the Federal Govt, yet the State Govt, is the one you directly influence, and is closest to you, but people don;t think about any of that in relation to their Immediate Lives....
And even back then, nobody had the balls.
Also you completely omitted this context: Section 3 Disqualification from Holding Office No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Basically you cannot run for or be in office if you've committed treason/sedition/insurrection/etc. That's huge, huge context you left out.
I didn't include that part because it wasn't relevant to the question of whether or not Speaker is an officer of the USA as applicable to Article II.
But yes, those who've been treasonous scum, are barred from public office, neither federal nor state office. Important requirement here is that one must first be judged guilty of having committed treason, before being barred from office. Being found guilty while in office (or illegally occupying office) would obviously result in immediate removal.
Thanks for this post. More informative than anything I ever got out of civics class. I’m curious as to why people think that if biden goes then so will Harris. Seems to me that if he is 25thed then she takes office. This leaves a VP vacancy, right?
Correct. Per the 25th, if Biden dies, is removed or resigns, then she would become POTUS to finish the term, leaving VP vacant for her to appoint a replacement to be confirmed by Congress. However if it's just Section 4 used (inability/incapacity) she would only be Acting POTUS, leaving open a Biden return if the inability is removed.
People want to get rid of Biden and Harris to in theory, elevate McCarthy. Of course as I've argued here, Speaker isn't eligible. But it's not like anyone actually cares about the Constitution 🤷🏻
We sure did a lot of nervous Nancy Pelosi dances around here for awhile.
u/NewExpertBread
u/CHAOS_ACTUAL
So what happens if the VP is taken out by impeachment first?
Then the VP remains vacant. POTUS would have to nominate a replacement, to be confirmed by both houses of Congress.
I mean, it's theoretically possible to get rid of Harris, and force Biden to nominate Trump as VP, get Congress to approve, then remove Biden, allowing Trump to succeed... but I likely have a better chance winning a billion dollar lotto jackpot 😂