The Rapture is the same as the resurrection, but not the same as the Second Coming of Christ. In the Rapture, we go to meet Christ in the air, Christ doesn’t come down to earth until the end of the Tribulation. That is the Second Coming.
It is true that Christians won’t escape tribulation in this world, but The Tribulation is a different Beast entirely (pun intended). It is described in the OT as the Day of God’s Wrath and the time of Jacob’s Trouble. In the Tribulation, God will accomplish two things: pouring out His wrath on a wicked world, and drawing Israel back to Himself. The church, as the bride of Christ, has no need to go through the wrath of God since Christ has already endured that for us. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will take place during the Tribulation. To complete the marriage analogy, it would be somewhat weird for the groom to make his bride suffer his wrath before wedding her.
More verses suggesting a pre Trib Rapture:
Luke 21:35-36
Matthew 24:36-51
1 Thessalonians 1:10
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
Revelation 3:10
See also the example of Lot; God brought Lot out before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, as Abraham correctly pointed out that God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
I just read Matthew 24 in its entirety, not only starting from verse 36. Verse 9 clearly states that Christians will be delivered into tribulation and killed. It is possible that all of this has transpired over many long centuries, as we have seen many false prophets already. Mohammad, Joseph Smith, the Watchtower/JW people (forget the name), 7th Dayers, and of course Moonies, whom are quite the focus of the media here in Japan since PM Abe's assassination last summer.
I suppose one could argue that the tribulation has been underway for the past 2000 years already, kicked off with the likes of Saul, who God revealed himself to and joined the disciples.
A church my family attended during my junior high/high school days did a study in which the pastor essentially said that the Tribulation has already been going on for quite a while already, meaning that when Jesus comes back, it will essentially be a post-Tribulation rapture and ressurrection, in which the remaining faithful plus those whom have already passed away will be reunited together at once.
Matthew 24: 17 talks about needing to flee, and woe be to pregnant or nursing mothers. It doesn't look like we'll be taken to Heaven without having to go through a lot of pain and suffering. Verse 21 talks of such great tribulation, verse 30 speaks of Christ's return, and then later in 36 it speaks of people being taken away. I'm looking at this as a linear progression and not cherry-picking.
I'm not being argumentative, but just wanting to seek enlightenment. Do you have a rebuttal? I would appreciate your input. Thanks.
Verses 1-2 obviously refer to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., so that part has already been fulfilled. Likewise, verse 4-9 describe the current church age quite well. However, I will note again that the tribulations and afflictions mentioned here are nothing compared the Tribulation, which is uniquely described as the Wrath of God and the time of Jacob's Trouble.
This fact is important as we see that Christ shifts to talk about the abomination of desolation in verses 15-28. The abomination of desolation is also mentioned in Daniel 8:9-11, 13-14, 23-26, and Daniel 11:31. These passages are stated to take place during "the latter indignation", another name for the Tribulation. The Abomination of Desolation specifically occurs during the latter half of this 7 year period. Here's an article that breaks down Daniel, specifically rebutting the theory that Antiochus IV already fulfilled Daniel:
Matthew 24:17 talks about the need to flee, because the Abomination of Desolation basically consists of the Antichrist suddenly betraying the agreement that he set up with Israel and invading. Jesus also notes that they should pray that the flight not take place on the sabbath, something that only applies to Jews as Christians don't observe the sabbath. Therefore verse 15-28 are specifically for the nation of Israel. Verse 21 states "for then there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". This imo rules out most of the lesser tribulations and trials that Christians and Jews alike have experienced in the past 2,000 years, though arguably the Holocaust may approximate some of the horrors of the real Tribulation. Lastly, verse 22 says that if those days weren't cut short, no flesh would survive. This again rules out the events of the past 2,000 years, as there are 8 billion people and millions of Jews left on the planet. The numerous catastrophes of Revelation are much better candidates for plausibly wiping out the human population were they allowed to continue for more than 7 years.
Unfortunately, your pastor seems to be incorrect that the Tribulation has been going on for 2,000 years. While I understand the confusion, as both Christians and Jews have faced fierce persecution throughout history, the scriptural evidence doesn't seem to support it. When Daniel and Revelation are read together, it's extremely difficult to come away with anything else than a specific 7 year period:
For more reading on arguments for a pre Trib Rapture and a general chronology of the events of the Tribulation, check out these links as well (this guy backs up his arguments with lots of Scripture and sound reasoning):
I'm glad you're interested in this subject and willing dive deeply into what the Bible says regarding the end times. I hope you find these resources helpful in your studies.
I grew up believing that the rapture comes before the tribulation. Those who accepted the Mark of the Beast are left after the rapture, and then they have a chance to accept Christ, but have to go through the tribulation and suffer as Christ did to earn their place in heaven.
At least that’s what I understood from those Revelation Bible studies.
But it is apparent I need to get back into study instead of relying on what I think I was taught. Thanks to all for the references.
You've pretty much got it, except that the Mark of the Beast doesn't get implemented until after the Rapture, and those who take it have no chance at salvation. It's strongly correlated with conscious worship of the Antichrist, so it's not like those who take the Mark don't know what they're doing. See Revelation 14:9-11.
Anyone who doesn't take the Mark and survives the Tribulation (presumably) gets to live into the Millenium, although at some point they'll have to make the same decision to accept Christ as Lord just like we do now.
The Rapture is the same as the resurrection, but not the same as the Second Coming of Christ. In the Rapture, we go to meet Christ in the air, Christ doesn’t come down to earth until the end of the Tribulation. That is the Second Coming.
It is true that Christians won’t escape tribulation in this world, but The Tribulation is a different Beast entirely (pun intended). It is described in the OT as the Day of God’s Wrath and the time of Jacob’s Trouble. In the Tribulation, God will accomplish two things: pouring out His wrath on a wicked world, and drawing Israel back to Himself. The church, as the bride of Christ, has no need to go through the wrath of God since Christ has already endured that for us. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will take place during the Tribulation. To complete the marriage analogy, it would be somewhat weird for the groom to make his bride suffer his wrath before wedding her.
More verses suggesting a pre Trib Rapture:
Luke 21:35-36 Matthew 24:36-51 1 Thessalonians 1:10 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 Revelation 3:10
See also the example of Lot; God brought Lot out before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, as Abraham correctly pointed out that God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
Thank you for sharing!
Thanks for sharing.
I just read Matthew 24 in its entirety, not only starting from verse 36. Verse 9 clearly states that Christians will be delivered into tribulation and killed. It is possible that all of this has transpired over many long centuries, as we have seen many false prophets already. Mohammad, Joseph Smith, the Watchtower/JW people (forget the name), 7th Dayers, and of course Moonies, whom are quite the focus of the media here in Japan since PM Abe's assassination last summer.
I suppose one could argue that the tribulation has been underway for the past 2000 years already, kicked off with the likes of Saul, who God revealed himself to and joined the disciples.
A church my family attended during my junior high/high school days did a study in which the pastor essentially said that the Tribulation has already been going on for quite a while already, meaning that when Jesus comes back, it will essentially be a post-Tribulation rapture and ressurrection, in which the remaining faithful plus those whom have already passed away will be reunited together at once.
Matthew 24: 17 talks about needing to flee, and woe be to pregnant or nursing mothers. It doesn't look like we'll be taken to Heaven without having to go through a lot of pain and suffering. Verse 21 talks of such great tribulation, verse 30 speaks of Christ's return, and then later in 36 it speaks of people being taken away. I'm looking at this as a linear progression and not cherry-picking.
I'm not being argumentative, but just wanting to seek enlightenment. Do you have a rebuttal? I would appreciate your input. Thanks.
Alright, lets look through Matthew 24.
Verses 1-2 obviously refer to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., so that part has already been fulfilled. Likewise, verse 4-9 describe the current church age quite well. However, I will note again that the tribulations and afflictions mentioned here are nothing compared the Tribulation, which is uniquely described as the Wrath of God and the time of Jacob's Trouble.
This fact is important as we see that Christ shifts to talk about the abomination of desolation in verses 15-28. The abomination of desolation is also mentioned in Daniel 8:9-11, 13-14, 23-26, and Daniel 11:31. These passages are stated to take place during "the latter indignation", another name for the Tribulation. The Abomination of Desolation specifically occurs during the latter half of this 7 year period. Here's an article that breaks down Daniel, specifically rebutting the theory that Antiochus IV already fulfilled Daniel:
https://www.barrysetterfield.org/Daniel%208/Daniel8.html
Matthew 24:17 talks about the need to flee, because the Abomination of Desolation basically consists of the Antichrist suddenly betraying the agreement that he set up with Israel and invading. Jesus also notes that they should pray that the flight not take place on the sabbath, something that only applies to Jews as Christians don't observe the sabbath. Therefore verse 15-28 are specifically for the nation of Israel. Verse 21 states "for then there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". This imo rules out most of the lesser tribulations and trials that Christians and Jews alike have experienced in the past 2,000 years, though arguably the Holocaust may approximate some of the horrors of the real Tribulation. Lastly, verse 22 says that if those days weren't cut short, no flesh would survive. This again rules out the events of the past 2,000 years, as there are 8 billion people and millions of Jews left on the planet. The numerous catastrophes of Revelation are much better candidates for plausibly wiping out the human population were they allowed to continue for more than 7 years.
Unfortunately, your pastor seems to be incorrect that the Tribulation has been going on for 2,000 years. While I understand the confusion, as both Christians and Jews have faced fierce persecution throughout history, the scriptural evidence doesn't seem to support it. When Daniel and Revelation are read together, it's extremely difficult to come away with anything else than a specific 7 year period:
https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html
For more reading on arguments for a pre Trib Rapture and a general chronology of the events of the Tribulation, check out these links as well (this guy backs up his arguments with lots of Scripture and sound reasoning):
https://www.barrysetterfield.org/Pre-Tribulation_Rapture.html
https://www.barrysetterfield.org/Tribulation_Events_Timeline.html
I'm glad you're interested in this subject and willing dive deeply into what the Bible says regarding the end times. I hope you find these resources helpful in your studies.
Yes, thank you very much for sharing. I appreciate it.
I grew up believing that the rapture comes before the tribulation. Those who accepted the Mark of the Beast are left after the rapture, and then they have a chance to accept Christ, but have to go through the tribulation and suffer as Christ did to earn their place in heaven.
At least that’s what I understood from those Revelation Bible studies.
But it is apparent I need to get back into study instead of relying on what I think I was taught. Thanks to all for the references.
You've pretty much got it, except that the Mark of the Beast doesn't get implemented until after the Rapture, and those who take it have no chance at salvation. It's strongly correlated with conscious worship of the Antichrist, so it's not like those who take the Mark don't know what they're doing. See Revelation 14:9-11.
Anyone who doesn't take the Mark and survives the Tribulation (presumably) gets to live into the Millenium, although at some point they'll have to make the same decision to accept Christ as Lord just like we do now.