Welcome to General Chat - GAW Community Area
This General Chat area started off as a place for people to talk about things that are off topic, however it has quickly evolved into a community and has become an integral part of the GAW experience for many of us.
Based on its evolving needs and plenty of user feedback, we are trying to bring some order and institute some rules. Please make sure you read these rules and participate in the spirit of this community.
Rules for General Chat
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Be respectful to each other. This is of utmost importance, and comments may be removed if deemed not respectful.
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Avoid long drawn out arguments. This should be a place to relax, not to waste your time needlessly.
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Personal anecdotes, puzzles, cute pics/clips - everything welcome
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Things that are clearly on-topic for this board should be posted as a separate post and not here (except if you are new and still getting the feel of this place)
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If you find people violating these rules, deport them rather than start a argument here.
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Feel free to give feedback as these rules are expected to keep evoloving
In short, imagine this thread to be a local community hall where we all gather and chat daily. Please be respectful to others in the same way
I've always understood it to mean that Jesus (and God the father) is very understanding of people's inherent skepticism, and that anyone hearing of Jesus and his deeds who scoffed or otherwise did not believe could be forgiven, the same as how God forgives our actions done of mortal ignorance, but that anyone who receives direct first-hand, personal experience of the Holy Spirit and later denied its holiness or failed to revere God after such experience is a person who willfully turns their heart away from God even after knowing Him, and therefore cannot be forgiven. Similar to Q's use of the word "knowingly."
The Old Testament has a number of examples of people who were overcome or encompassed by the spirit of God at one time or another; most went on to live holy lives and to receive God's favor. King Saul, however, turned away from God even after having felt his spirit, and the spirit left him. In my opinion, Saul was not forgiven because, not only he should've known better but he actually did know better and still turned away.
Likewise, Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 times. But this was forgiven him because his denial sprang from the human frailty of fear. But if he had denied Him after Pentecost, when he received the Holy Spirit and the personal revelation of God's love had been planted in his heart, that sin would not have been forgiven. Saul of Tarsus was likewise forgiven of his many grevious and sinful actions against the followers of Jesus, yet if he had continued to sin after his visitation on the road to Damascus, and he was no longer ignorant, his sins done in knowledge are not forgiven.
This scripture is quite meaningful to me personally, as I used to have an understanding of God based on a combination of faith (trust) and reasoning, but I once was blessed with a visitation by the Holy Spirit, something of a personal Pentecost if you will, or like those in the Old Testament who had moments of being overcome or accompanied by the spirit. The feeling was similar to that described by people who have had heavenly near-death experiences, that of being bathed in light and love. At that point I understood fully the meaning of this passage. Up until that point, any skepticism or faltering in my faith was understandable and forgivable; but after being given the gift of knowledge of God, turning away or denying my own experience would be a paramount sin and not worthy of forgiveness. If I were to say that God does not exist after such an experience, it would be to speak against, to blaspheme, the Holy Ghost.
It sounds like you're suggesting that a believer can lose their salvation. I disagree with that, as Ephesians 4:30 assures us we have been 'sealed for the day of redemption.'
It's an interesting question. I believe God gives us the opportunity to turn away from him, which if we do that, we condemn ourselves. It might depend on varying translations, but I read 4:30 as being conditioned on faithfully converting, as specified earlier in the chapter's verses 4:14, 17 and 21, which involve abandoning old ways and abstaining from evil ways and thoughts.
And then we have other verses such as Luke 9:62- "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" that imply a person can learn the truth and yet knowingly abandon it, disqualifying themselves.
In a way it's academic: the question is only relevant for those who believe in Jesus the Christ and who then knowingly do wrong. Hopefully that doesn't apply to either of us, and I will appeal to His mercy should I falter from weakness. At any rate, that's how I read it.
Thanks for the further discussion. I agree that there are passages that 'seemingly' suggest that. However, my belief is that God's promise is far superior than our human promises and it does not falter. Even after we become believers, we are still imperfect, still sinners. Though we strive to live outside the shackles of sin, we are still frail, imperfect humans and do "miss the mark" (the actual translation of the Greek word 'sin' used in the New Testament.) So yes, we miss the bullseye because we are indeed imperfect.
However, God's promises to us are unfailing. So even when we fail, even when we falter and turn away from the faith, the promise that He made to us doesn't change. We are secure in His faithfulness to us. I am very grateful for that.
Good discussions are not for winning or losing a dispute, but rather to help the participants uncover the truth themselves by exploring new perspectives, with the opportunity to further open the mind and the heart. Agreement on the conclusion is not needed to benefit from and enjoy the discussion. And it's healthy to challenge one's ideas, especially when the challenge comes from good faith. The Bible is a source of study that is inexhaustible, and deserves frequent visits. I'll continue to turn it over in my heart. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this explanation. It really helps me understand better.
God bless you.
I disagree with that as it sounds like the anon thinks believers can lose their salvation. Ephesians 4:30 assures us we have been 'sealed for the day of redemption.'