We win by persuasion, not banning. Banning results in Democrats winning elections.
I disagree. You're not accounting for God.
Unborn children are fully human from the moment of conception. In fact the first person to recognize Jesus was John the Baptist while they were both was still in the womb. The premeditated taking of a human life is defined as murder and scripture calls for capital punishment.
Here's the part that's important...
"God curses a nation that sheds innocent blood."
By allowing the slaughter of innocent children we are bringing God's judgment upon our nation. Not just judgment after we're dead, judgment now.
When God wants to judge a nation one of the ways He does that is by sending them wicked rulers. It also appears many other ways from droughts, floods, natural disasters, moral and cultural decline, corruption, degeneracy, and much more.
God is sovereign over everything including elections. God doesn't call us to simply win elections and work top down. God calls us to be faithful and stand in the gap for the innocent.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We run www.EndAbortionNow.com and have equipped churches around the world to fight abortion in a biblical way. We have bills of full abolition pending across the country. We produced the documentaries "babies are murdered here" and "babies are still murdered here" (both free online, go watch them)
Our work is responsible for closing dozens and dozens of abortion facilities. We lost count of how many babies have been saved by this ministry years ago.
We are very much in this fight and we have seen God move an incredible ways time and time again. We have a absolute shoestring budget and are a small church in Mesa Arizona but by being faithful God has used us to move political mountains. We've accomplished more in just a few years than the entire pro-life establishment has accomplished in the last 40 years. How? Being faithful and consistent with scripture.
Outlaw child sacrifice. God will do the rest. This nation would turn around and become righteous and prosperous so fast it would make your head spin.
I'm thankful that at least at this point we've made it a states rights issue. It took a lot of work for us to get here. The next step is getting the first state to criminalize it then others will soon follow. You will see not only the curse lifted off the states that criminalize it but also the blessings that God will pour down on the states. The dichotomy of states that celebrate child sacrifice versus the states that criminalize it will quickly become apparent.
God is sovereign over reality. God doesn't call for careful men, he calls for faithful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.
I didn't question your faith. But now I'm definitely questioning your understanding of scripture based off that response.
You know I'm sure there were a few people that were telling Joshua that marching around Jericho and circles and blowing trumpets wasn't very strategic and wasn't going to win the battle. But the walls crumbled. Not because of strategy and planning, because of God. And God did it in such a way that everyone would know it was Him.... when His people were faithful even when commanded to approach a problem in a impossible or improbable way. That's reality.
Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it.
See how far scripture gets you with every Leftist woman and beta male who was going to sit out the November election but is now leaping off the couch to vote against DJT after he takes the Stand you want him to take.
You'll see Biden win the Presidency. You'll see down ballot Republicans losing elections they would have won. You'll see Democrats taking control of state legislatures and consequently you'll see abortion expand dramatically in its accessibility and term across the country.
Personally, I'm more interested in winning this war than platitudes.
If getting what was right and just was simply a matter of praying and believing in scripture, the world would be a far better place. But it's not because there is evil in the world. We fight evil by praying, but we fight evil by fighting SMART. Over the decades, political stupidity has undone a mountain of good.
I swear, some of you don't seem to realize that DJT is literally the first President in your lifetime that's actually fighting against abortion; not just speaking out against it like Reagan did. Trump made actual political maneuvers to end Roe vs Wade at the federal level and get it to the states where we can start chipping away. And there's a half dozen of you on here that are railing against him because he didn't take the noble stand you wanted him to take.
Again, I want to win this war. I'm willing to do what it takes to win this war and it's apparent that so does DJT. Are you?
"Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it."
For God's sake, get over yourself.
We don’t need a ban as murder is already banned in 50 states. Leave it to the states to decide whether to allow murder on the innocent and let them have blood on their hands. The day will come when people finally realize what they’ve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance.
I understand where you're coming from, SAA and I agree with you on both counts.
It is a tragedy of incalculable proportions that it's legal and happens every day. But we're slowly winning this battle and we haven't been able to say that for a very long time.
"The day will come when people finally realize what they’ve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance."
I agree. And I could not imagine having that stain on my soul.
You are completely right and God bless you for doing God work and fighting for the innocent unborn. Now that Roe-wade is gone and it’s been declared a state issue just need people to realize that abortion is murder - an act which is outlawed in all 50 states.
Exactly. Now instead of hearing all the my body my choice bs talking points perhaps we can have an actual debate about what constitutes murder and what constitutes a person - the latter has never been truly defined although Supreme Court does have the power to do so.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade.
The result of which was leaving it to the states.
It's all good and dandy to want to take it further, but by overturning Roe vs Wade, the argument has been strengthened against a nationwide ban as well.
It is a double edged sword, but fortunately in reality even if we don't have a nationwide ban, we now have the opportunity to convince enough people to bypass cheating and fraud on an individual state level, thereby eventually achieving the same thing.
Murder is federally illegal. 18 U.S.C. § 1111 defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being with malice.
It's not strictly a state's issue. If our federal government would recognize the fact that an unborn child is fully human from the moment of conception We could wrap this right up.
Even if we defined life at a federal level most states still have statutes on the books that would instantly make abortion illegal in those states.
Should slavery be a state issue? Same category. Dehumanizing a group of people in order to enact someone else's will upon them.
This was my response to another post saying the same thing:
That's the rub, isn't it? The world has disagreed many times on what constitutes murder and the criteria that needs to be met.
Fortunately, we have an opportunity that we did not have before because we were held hostage by a federal ruling that wasn't even based in honesty.
It doesn't strictly matter that murder is illegal if the criteria of what murder is or isn't, who is guilty or isn't guilty, who constitutes a person or doesn't, is fluid.
The states rights is a stepping stone, but it's an important one. We won't win a fight by aiming for the grand prize when there are a ton of other steps we have to take first.
But by taking a step down the states' rights path, we stepped away from a path that led directly to a national ban.
The next path leads to a philosophical battle to get people to understand that an unborn baby is still human, which causes people to vote in favor of banning abortion in their states, which also leads to recognition of that fact.
I must admit this is a dark day to see more down votes for your comment then up votes. I stand with you. You are either against abortion or for it; no in-between. You cant serve the world and God at the same time. Look up Matthew 6:24-26
Doing nothing is a sin of omission. I would look at James 4:17 too; we can't pass the buck to others. Truly anyone who calls themselves a Christian must be against abortion. You are either all in or not at all; we can't pick and choose what we want to follow....again, sad to see so many who are ok with the state choosing.
I will say this doesn't change my stance on Trump the plan as we all are sinners short of perfection; but I will pray that he and others see the error of their ways repent and move for real change.
I support Trump. He's the greatest president of my lifetime.
I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted honestly. I think maybe people are misconstruing My position on abortion with me somehow not supporting Trump in general.
I've been in this fight for the lives of the unborn for years now at a level that virtually no one on the subreddit could relate to. I'm very close to this issue and the success that my church has had in this area has been solely based off of how consistent with scripture and faithful we've been.
What would shock some people is to know that one of our biggest opponents in getting full abolition and criminalization legislation on the books has been the existing pro-life establishment that only wants to practice incrementalism and doesn't surprisingly actually want abortion to end. If abortion was outlawed tomorrow these organizations that pull in millions and millions of dollars a year and have very high paying salaries for their leadership, would dry up in heartbeat.
At no place in scripture does God command or promote incrementalism. That concept in itself is essentially rejecting the power of God to bring change out of our faithfulness and instead leaning on our own ability and understanding when we should be faithfully trusting in God to bring the increase.
You can be 100% against abortion and yet still agree to leave it up to the states to decide. Giving the federal government more power is not the answer. We need a debate that hopefully one day will lead the Supreme Court to define what is a person and by that statement we will be able to define whether the states are legalizing murder or not.
I respectfully disagree. I just can't in good conscious stay out of the fight when we have the ability to impact that decision. Does my vote count for much? No. A drop in the ocean but its still part of that change.
However, I do 100% agree with you on big government. More power is not the answer and a debate exposing truth would be great just never see that happening; at least hasn't happened to the degree we'd like it to yet.
Tough topic, I think the point I'm trying to make is something like this:
Trumps position on allowing states to decide would be much more popular with the masses. However, at what cost? Are we sacrificing appeasement to the world over God? This is where my conflict and conviction is.
On the other side of the coin it could be argued if he doesn't take this stance then gives ammo to other side to stay in power and more evil is committed. Same analogy as would it be ok to lie if Gov was rounding up Christians in your home to protect them (yes I used a different analogy than ww2 to avoid another angle). You get the point.
So that's how I'm approaching it. I still 100% would have to stand on this hill that all abortion is murder and willfully allowing "others" to decide whether they desire to sin is still blood on my hands if I can contribute to rectifying that change.
However, again, as a realist I recognize that all men are sinful creatures and Trump will not be perfect as will be the majority of the world made up of nonbelievers and self professing Christians. Am I still behind him 100%, yes. All we can do is pray. Everything after all is in God's control.
A deft political move; Very, very smart.
We win by persuasion, not banning. Banning results in Democrats winning elections.
I disagree. You're not accounting for God.
Unborn children are fully human from the moment of conception. In fact the first person to recognize Jesus was John the Baptist while they were both was still in the womb. The premeditated taking of a human life is defined as murder and scripture calls for capital punishment.
Here's the part that's important... "God curses a nation that sheds innocent blood."
By allowing the slaughter of innocent children we are bringing God's judgment upon our nation. Not just judgment after we're dead, judgment now.
When God wants to judge a nation one of the ways He does that is by sending them wicked rulers. It also appears many other ways from droughts, floods, natural disasters, moral and cultural decline, corruption, degeneracy, and much more.
God is sovereign over everything including elections. God doesn't call us to simply win elections and work top down. God calls us to be faithful and stand in the gap for the innocent.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We run www.EndAbortionNow.com and have equipped churches around the world to fight abortion in a biblical way. We have bills of full abolition pending across the country. We produced the documentaries "babies are murdered here" and "babies are still murdered here" (both free online, go watch them)
Our work is responsible for closing dozens and dozens of abortion facilities. We lost count of how many babies have been saved by this ministry years ago.
We are very much in this fight and we have seen God move an incredible ways time and time again. We have a absolute shoestring budget and are a small church in Mesa Arizona but by being faithful God has used us to move political mountains. We've accomplished more in just a few years than the entire pro-life establishment has accomplished in the last 40 years. How? Being faithful and consistent with scripture.
Outlaw child sacrifice. God will do the rest. This nation would turn around and become righteous and prosperous so fast it would make your head spin.
I'm thankful that at least at this point we've made it a states rights issue. It took a lot of work for us to get here. The next step is getting the first state to criminalize it then others will soon follow. You will see not only the curse lifted off the states that criminalize it but also the blessings that God will pour down on the states. The dichotomy of states that celebrate child sacrifice versus the states that criminalize it will quickly become apparent.
I'm accounting for reality.
You can try to ban it and all that will happen lost elections and abortion "rights" becoming even more pervasive.
Please don't question my faith in God and my accounting of him, it's insulting.
God is sovereign over reality. God doesn't call for careful men, he calls for faithful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.
I didn't question your faith. But now I'm definitely questioning your understanding of scripture based off that response.
You know I'm sure there were a few people that were telling Joshua that marching around Jericho and circles and blowing trumpets wasn't very strategic and wasn't going to win the battle. But the walls crumbled. Not because of strategy and planning, because of God. And God did it in such a way that everyone would know it was Him.... when His people were faithful even when commanded to approach a problem in a impossible or improbable way. That's reality.
Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it.
Amen
See how far scripture gets you with every Leftist woman and beta male who was going to sit out the November election but is now leaping off the couch to vote against DJT after he takes the Stand you want him to take.
You'll see Biden win the Presidency. You'll see down ballot Republicans losing elections they would have won. You'll see Democrats taking control of state legislatures and consequently you'll see abortion expand dramatically in its accessibility and term across the country.
Personally, I'm more interested in winning this war than platitudes.
If getting what was right and just was simply a matter of praying and believing in scripture, the world would be a far better place. But it's not because there is evil in the world. We fight evil by praying, but we fight evil by fighting SMART. Over the decades, political stupidity has undone a mountain of good.
I swear, some of you don't seem to realize that DJT is literally the first President in your lifetime that's actually fighting against abortion; not just speaking out against it like Reagan did. Trump made actual political maneuvers to end Roe vs Wade at the federal level and get it to the states where we can start chipping away. And there's a half dozen of you on here that are railing against him because he didn't take the noble stand you wanted him to take.
Again, I want to win this war. I'm willing to do what it takes to win this war and it's apparent that so does DJT. Are you?
"Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it." For God's sake, get over yourself.
We don’t need a ban as murder is already banned in 50 states. Leave it to the states to decide whether to allow murder on the innocent and let them have blood on their hands. The day will come when people finally realize what they’ve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance.
I understand where you're coming from, SAA and I agree with you on both counts.
It is a tragedy of incalculable proportions that it's legal and happens every day. But we're slowly winning this battle and we haven't been able to say that for a very long time.
"The day will come when people finally realize what they’ve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance."
I agree. And I could not imagine having that stain on my soul.
You are completely right and God bless you for doing God work and fighting for the innocent unborn. Now that Roe-wade is gone and it’s been declared a state issue just need people to realize that abortion is murder - an act which is outlawed in all 50 states.
That's the rub, isn't it? The world has disagreed many times on what constitutes murder and the criteria that needs to be met.
Fortunately, we have an opportunity that we did not have before because we were held hostage by a federal ruling that wasn't even based in honesty.
Exactly. Now instead of hearing all the my body my choice bs talking points perhaps we can have an actual debate about what constitutes murder and what constitutes a person - the latter has never been truly defined although Supreme Court does have the power to do so.
Amen. Fellow abolitionist here. And I'd adopt in a heartbeat.
The result of which was leaving it to the states.
It's all good and dandy to want to take it further, but by overturning Roe vs Wade, the argument has been strengthened against a nationwide ban as well.
It is a double edged sword, but fortunately in reality even if we don't have a nationwide ban, we now have the opportunity to convince enough people to bypass cheating and fraud on an individual state level, thereby eventually achieving the same thing.
Murder is federally illegal. 18 U.S.C. § 1111 defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being with malice. It's not strictly a state's issue. If our federal government would recognize the fact that an unborn child is fully human from the moment of conception We could wrap this right up.
Even if we defined life at a federal level most states still have statutes on the books that would instantly make abortion illegal in those states.
Should slavery be a state issue? Same category. Dehumanizing a group of people in order to enact someone else's will upon them.
This was my response to another post saying the same thing:
It doesn't strictly matter that murder is illegal if the criteria of what murder is or isn't, who is guilty or isn't guilty, who constitutes a person or doesn't, is fluid.
The states rights is a stepping stone, but it's an important one. We won't win a fight by aiming for the grand prize when there are a ton of other steps we have to take first.
But by taking a step down the states' rights path, we stepped away from a path that led directly to a national ban.
The next path leads to a philosophical battle to get people to understand that an unborn baby is still human, which causes people to vote in favor of banning abortion in their states, which also leads to recognition of that fact.
I must admit this is a dark day to see more down votes for your comment then up votes. I stand with you. You are either against abortion or for it; no in-between. You cant serve the world and God at the same time. Look up Matthew 6:24-26
Doing nothing is a sin of omission. I would look at James 4:17 too; we can't pass the buck to others. Truly anyone who calls themselves a Christian must be against abortion. You are either all in or not at all; we can't pick and choose what we want to follow....again, sad to see so many who are ok with the state choosing.
I will say this doesn't change my stance on Trump the plan as we all are sinners short of perfection; but I will pray that he and others see the error of their ways repent and move for real change.
I support Trump. He's the greatest president of my lifetime.
I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted honestly. I think maybe people are misconstruing My position on abortion with me somehow not supporting Trump in general.
I've been in this fight for the lives of the unborn for years now at a level that virtually no one on the subreddit could relate to. I'm very close to this issue and the success that my church has had in this area has been solely based off of how consistent with scripture and faithful we've been.
What would shock some people is to know that one of our biggest opponents in getting full abolition and criminalization legislation on the books has been the existing pro-life establishment that only wants to practice incrementalism and doesn't surprisingly actually want abortion to end. If abortion was outlawed tomorrow these organizations that pull in millions and millions of dollars a year and have very high paying salaries for their leadership, would dry up in heartbeat.
At no place in scripture does God command or promote incrementalism. That concept in itself is essentially rejecting the power of God to bring change out of our faithfulness and instead leaning on our own ability and understanding when we should be faithfully trusting in God to bring the increase.
100% understand what you are saying brother. I'm with you. We must submit to Gods will; he is in control.
You can be 100% against abortion and yet still agree to leave it up to the states to decide. Giving the federal government more power is not the answer. We need a debate that hopefully one day will lead the Supreme Court to define what is a person and by that statement we will be able to define whether the states are legalizing murder or not.
I respectfully disagree. I just can't in good conscious stay out of the fight when we have the ability to impact that decision. Does my vote count for much? No. A drop in the ocean but its still part of that change. However, I do 100% agree with you on big government. More power is not the answer and a debate exposing truth would be great just never see that happening; at least hasn't happened to the degree we'd like it to yet.
Tough topic, I think the point I'm trying to make is something like this: Trumps position on allowing states to decide would be much more popular with the masses. However, at what cost? Are we sacrificing appeasement to the world over God? This is where my conflict and conviction is.
On the other side of the coin it could be argued if he doesn't take this stance then gives ammo to other side to stay in power and more evil is committed. Same analogy as would it be ok to lie if Gov was rounding up Christians in your home to protect them (yes I used a different analogy than ww2 to avoid another angle). You get the point.
So that's how I'm approaching it. I still 100% would have to stand on this hill that all abortion is murder and willfully allowing "others" to decide whether they desire to sin is still blood on my hands if I can contribute to rectifying that change. However, again, as a realist I recognize that all men are sinful creatures and Trump will not be perfect as will be the majority of the world made up of nonbelievers and self professing Christians. Am I still behind him 100%, yes. All we can do is pray. Everything after all is in God's control.