What do you think?
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In the meantime, since you won’t give me an indication what eschatological camp you landed in, I’ll have to ask some clarifying questions to get a better feel for where you’re coming from;
How do you explain the ongoing existence of evil and suffering if all biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the past?
Why do we still see the growth of Christianity if all biblical prophecies, including about the Kingdom of God, were fulfilled in the first century?
How do you interpret passages that seem to describe a future judgment and resurrection of the dead?
Why has the expectation of Christ’s return persisted throughout history if all prophecy was fulfilled in the past?
How do you explain the unrealized events described in Revelation, such as the defeat of evil and the establishment of a new heaven and earth?
Do you think this view diminishes the hope and urgency of the Christian message regarding Christ’s return and the final redemption of creation?
Just to give you a heads up: After 2000 years of church history, it’s highly unlikely you’ve landed in some nuanced, “new” eschatological framework.
[EDIT]
It’s important I clarify that no single end-times framework can perfectly accommodate every passage about the end times. However, some frameworks align more accurately with the overall biblical narrative than others.
if God eradicated evil he would be closing the door on any hope for salvation for the lost as well as taking out quite a large chunk of Christians who are still growing in their faith, making mistakes, espousing bad teachings etc. "wheat and tares"
I didn't say they were all fulfilled, I was mainly thinking of Daniel's 70 weeks and the Olivet Discourse. We see the continual growth of Christianity because Christ is alive and well, operating in the hearts of true believers worldwide, only growing and with each false doctrine exposed being more and more magnified. I can't tell you how many people I've shocked by showing them the difference between say, Catholicism VS true Christianity, or other manmade religious dogmas VS what Christ actually showcased and taught.
When you die in Christ you face Him instead of the Father of Spirits, when you die outside of Christ...you go straight to Pops 😬 as to duration or timing or periods of resting in graves beforehand I have no idea
because people have misunderstood the scriptures, as many did in Jesus' time on earth in the flesh
NCSWIC
not my view, maybe the ones where they've got Christians watching if some river in the Middle East dries up, holed up in their building every Sunday waiting for the Rapture sending checks to "Israel"...looking for a blessing that's from the Law of Moses...which Christ already fulfilled and gave us a much better covenant to replace
Thank you for answering. Helps me understand a little better where you're coming from, and I agree with most of what you say.
Could you expand on your interpretation of these prophecies and explain why you believe they have already been fulfilled?
Are you aware of the concept of dual fulfillment in Hebrew prophecy, where a prophecy may have an immediate fulfillment in the historical context it was given, as well as a future fulfillment?
I have heard of it.
Babylon: 603BC - 538BC
Medo-Persia: 559BC - 330BC
Greece: 333BC - 30BC
Rome: 168BC - 476AD (1st Roman emperor 27BC)
10 European kingdoms: 476AD - present
4th beast in Daniel = Roman empire. It is shown to exist in some form continuously until the coming of Christ. (Dan. 2:33-34, 40-44) It is the only institution which has lasted long enough to fulfill the 1260 days (years) prophecy. The 10 horns are a divided, but united, Western Europe. This has been the state of things since the fall of the last Roman emperor in 476 A.D. One power, different from the 10 horns, did arise from among them:
494 A.D. Gelasius, Bishop of Rome, "There are two authorities by which the world is governed-- The PONTIFICAL AND THE ROYAL, the sacerdotal order being that which has charge of the sacraments of life, and from it must be sought salvation. Hence in Divine things it becomes kings to bow the neck to priests, especially to the head of priests, whom Christ's own voice has set over the universal Church."
The very eschatology most Christians profess has been one of the most effective weapons of Rome to blind the saints to the existence of the anti-christ among us and as you assumed me to be a "preterist" I will say that both Preterism and Futurism were invented by Jesuits some time in the 1500s to throw people off the foul stench of Rome. [They] don't care what you believe as long as you don't know the truth about [them]. These lies were spread into Christendom via Jesuit-infested seminaries and backed up via Jesuit-infested "new Bible" translation teams who modified key bits of scripture in their "new Bibles" (AKJV1611 still good!)
The 70 weeks of Daniel were to begin "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" which happened with King Cyrus' decree; 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (of the age), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." = Jesus ministered for 3.5 years, or half a "week". Jesus' sacrifice put an end to sacrifices, oblations, and He cried "Jerusalem Jerusalem which killest the prophets, behold your house is left unto you desolate!" and then they "cut Him off"... Shortly after that the Jews stoned Steven, at which point I believe the transgression (of Israel) was finished, and God begun to instead focus on the Gentiles (hello Paul!). Steven also saw the Son of man in the clouds which is interesting when pondering Matthew 24:30... anyways, "to make an end of sins" is put under the Gospel, obviously. Atonement and reconciliation were made by the death of Christ upon the cross. To bring in everlasting righteousness is again accomplished by faith in Christ (our Righteousness!) To seal up vision and prophecy = no more prophets for Israel, they keep stoning them to death! It was foretold that both vision and prophet (eye and ear) were to be closed up, so that seeing they would see not, and hearing they would hear not.
When emperor Titus (the "prince" from Daniel 9:26) destroyed the temple in 70AD it fulfilled Matthew 24 up unto verse 28. Jesus confirms in verse 36 that the generation he was speaking to wouldn't pass away until all these things be fulfilled. The things were fulfilled...about 30 years later. The Great Tribulation was the destruction of Jerusalem, Josephus documents the horrors of that time. The "rapture language" applies to those who weren't paying attention so if anybody's getting "raptured" it's not us, it's them! It is interesting how these things seem to have a fractal nature and can be applied to cycles of history, in alignment with the dual prophecy meaning thing you mentioned. Anyways eagles = Roman legions who wore that icon on their armor. Carcass = spiritually dead Jews who didn't see the signs to leave Jerusalem.
Regarding the signs in the skies and falling stars, coming of the Son of man etc. I'm not sure. The sun going dark could allude to the coming merger of church and state "Roman Catholic Church", the "dark ages" where Christ was seldom preached truly (all you got was Catholic drivel) and the moon, which reflects the sun's light, could represent the church itself being "dark", with the stars falling = there were no great teachers of the church, apostles and evangelists, See Rev 1:20. When the apostles were "dethroned" by Rome, "the stars fell from heaven," figuratively. Other stars, great church lights who fell away from the truth, fell from heaven in another sense. As I said I'm unsure on this aspect but it could work! We know wild symbolism has been used to describe simple, earthly things before such as is found in Daniel, and it's more believable to me than it meaning God's going to blow up the whole universe 😂
Finally as briefly mentioned above, the 1260 day "war against the saints" by the Beast- or "time, times and half a time"- was fulfilled in 1260 years: the war of deceit and persecution waged by the Papacy corresponded with its' "temporal" power, which lasted approximately from 610 A.D. until 1870 A.D. It is interesting to note that the USA stopped all diplomatic relations with the Vatican in 1867 due to their involvement (Jesuit intrigue oh my!) in the Lincoln assassination and only resumed them in 1984 after Reagan was sent a "message"💥! If we use 1867 as the end date and apply -1260 we get year 607, which, notably, was the year Pope Boniface III in collusion with Emperor Phocas obtained the declaration that the poop was now the head of all churches. spit
I haven't delved into what them still existing at all could mean (deadly wound healed?) but look forward to their "entire corrupt temple crashing down"! Perhaps when the RCC is finally, fully exposed and all Christians know who the anti-christ is, the King of kings might pay us a visit?... fun to think about!
(and yes I blame all modern-day repulsion to being a Christian on that whore Rome and her daughter churches and the wine of fornication being Protestant churches who mingle some of her lies in with their teachings and so become corrupted. I can say with no exception that everyone I've tried to witness to who rejected me did not do so on any Christian point but rather on bad experiences with Catholicism or corrupted Protestantism.)
Thank you for your detailed response! I’d like to point out a few points of agreement:
1.Historical Empires: Your outline of the historical empires aligns with mainstream historical and biblical scholarship.
2.Daniel’s Fourth Beast: Your identification of the fourth beast as the Roman Empire and its continuity in Western Europe is consistent with classical dispensationalism.
3.Daniel’s 70 Weeks: Your interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks aligns with the belief that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy through His ministry and sacrifice.
4.Matthew 24 Interpretation: Your view that the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is in line with a Preterist understanding.
5.Symbolism in Revelation: Your symbolic interpretation of Revelation’s imagery corresponds to a common approach to understanding apocalyptic literature.
While we find agreement on these points, it’s intriguing to observe that your views actually incorporate elements of both Preterism and Dispensationalism, concepts you suggest were invented by Jesuits to distract from Rome.
Additionally, the cosmic apocalyptic imagery in Revelation, such as the darkening of the sun and the falling stars, bears a striking resemblance to the prophetic language used by Amos and other OT prophets as well as mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, suggesting a dual fulfillment—one in the contemporary context and another in the future return of Christ.
Revelation:
Revelation 6:12-14: "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Revelation 8:12: "The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."
Amos:
Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24):
(Here are some other OT references using the exact same wording:
Isaiah 13:10: "The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."
Isaiah 24:23: "The moon will be dismayed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders—with great glory."
Isaiah 34:4: "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."
Ezekiel 32:7-8: "When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you)
It's also worth noting that the apostle John, the author of Revelation, often draws his imagery from the Jewish Old Testament. The Old Testament serves as a key that unlocks the meaning of many symbols and visions in Revelation
Given this context, what are your thoughts on the gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy? Do you see scriptural support for the idea that we are currently in that gap, and that the 70th week will be fulfilled during the time of Jacob’s trouble or the great tribulation?