What do you think?
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Thank you for your detailed response! I’d like to point out a few points of agreement:
1.Historical Empires: Your outline of the historical empires aligns with mainstream historical and biblical scholarship.
2.Daniel’s Fourth Beast: Your identification of the fourth beast as the Roman Empire and its continuity in Western Europe is consistent with classical dispensationalism.
3.Daniel’s 70 Weeks: Your interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks aligns with the belief that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy through His ministry and sacrifice.
4.Matthew 24 Interpretation: Your view that the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is in line with a Preterist understanding.
5.Symbolism in Revelation: Your symbolic interpretation of Revelation’s imagery corresponds to a common approach to understanding apocalyptic literature.
While we find agreement on these points, it’s intriguing to observe that your views actually incorporate elements of both Preterism and Dispensationalism, concepts you suggest were invented by Jesuits to distract from Rome.
Additionally, the cosmic apocalyptic imagery in Revelation, such as the darkening of the sun and the falling stars, bears a striking resemblance to the prophetic language used by Amos and other OT prophets as well as mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, suggesting a dual fulfillment—one in the contemporary context and another in the future return of Christ.
Revelation:
Revelation 6:12-14: "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Revelation 8:12: "The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."
Amos:
Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24):
(Here are some other OT references using the exact same wording:
Isaiah 13:10: "The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."
Isaiah 24:23: "The moon will be dismayed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders—with great glory."
Isaiah 34:4: "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."
Ezekiel 32:7-8: "When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you)
It's also worth noting that the apostle John, the author of Revelation, often draws his imagery from the Jewish Old Testament. The Old Testament serves as a key that unlocks the meaning of many symbols and visions in Revelation
Given this context, what are your thoughts on the gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy? Do you see scriptural support for the idea that we are currently in that gap, and that the 70th week will be fulfilled during the time of Jacob’s trouble or the great tribulation?
I used to believe along the lines of Christian Zionists, pre-trib Rapture folks, even dabbled into dispensationalism (as I understood it) and now recently landed here (I don't know what "here" is anymore) the only thing I can say to it is that for the first time ever in my walk I have a grasp on eschatology that makes sense with the realities I see in the world today and the fog of dogmas and different beliefs on Bible prophecies is sort of.. irrelivent to me now.
As for "concepts from both views", one of which I never mentioned being dispensationalism, though I assume it's the same as futurism? The terms for these views are fairly new to me (I just thought it was all Christianity but different opinions on difficult issues) this is easily explained as being common to deceivers to include chunks of truth in their lies, so that doesn't surprise me.. the liars don't get to own the truths they twist just by slapping a new name on their bundles!
I don't believe there is a gap in the 70 weeks.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
To me it seems all weeks are accounted for, with the final week being the 3.5 years to execution / resurrection and the stoning of Steven (end of Israel only, beginning of Gospel to all nations) followed by the next 3.5 years, whatever happened then. I don't understand why this last week magically disappears and lasts for undetermined amount of time when all the others had a set time.
Your questioning has caused me to dig and learn even more details so I appreciate it, if you could shed some light on the gray areas in my views I'd be very grateful, also again I want to stress I'm not subscribed to any labels on this I just want to cut to the truth!
edit- forgot to reply to the OT heavenly bodies language parts... what came to me on this is that these references probably had meanings already assigned to them which were only known by the faithful remnant of Israel and these were shown to John and so he wrote Revelation with them, and of course Christ knew, and also used them. I bet they all reference the same things, all the way through, and I don't think they mean the actual stars, sun, or moon. I bet God can be quite cheeky and clever if He wants to keep something hidden, even using something with parallel earthly phenomena such as solar and lunar eclipses to veil coded language with, sort of like a double-veil. Idk if that made sense kek
I appreciate your willingness to engage with these complex topics. Forgive me for the long reply here, but these subjects require a little more explanation than normal.
Regarding the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel, while you maintain there is no gap, the text itself may provide evidence for a gap between the 69th and 70th week.
In Daniel 9:27, the prophecy states, "And he will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven,' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
This prophecy aligns with other passages that speak of the "abomination of desolation," a key event in end-times prophecy. Jesus Himself referred to this event in Matthew 24:15-21, linking it to a future time of great tribulation: "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
The apostle Paul also references the "abomination of desolation" in his letters, specifically in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, where he speaks of a future event:
That passage aligns with the concept of the abomination of desolation, where a figure of great evil (the Antichrist) will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem during a future period of tribulation.
Paul's mention of this event as something yet to come, along with similar passages in the New Testament, supports the idea that certain aspects of end-times prophecy, such as the 70th week of Daniel and the abomination of desolation, are still awaiting fulfillment. This reinforces the futurist interpretation of these prophecies, suggesting that they will be fulfilled in a future period of tribulation preceding Christ's return.
The description of the great tribulation in Matthew 24 and other passages (such as Revelation 7:14) portrays a period of unprecedented suffering and turmoil that has not yet been fulfilled in history. This, of course, aligns with a futurist interpretation of end-times events, suggesting that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet to come.
Furthermore, the idea of a gap within a prophetic timeline is not unprecedented in biblical prophecy. For example, in Luke 4:16-21, Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah and stops mid-sentence, implying a gap in the fulfillment of that prophecy. He reads, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor." He then stops before reading, "and the day of vengeance of our God." This "gap" suggests that the fulfillment of the latter part of this prophecy has a future aspect, which aligns with the concept of a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy.
One thing to keep in mind when discussing Hebrew prophecy is that the Church Age, which was not fully revealed to the Old Testament prophets, introduces the possibility of gaps in biblical prophecy. The concept of the Church Age as a mystery is a significant aspect of biblical theology. The apostle Paul, in Ephesians 3:4-6, describes this mystery as the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's redemptive plan through faith in Christ. He explains that this mystery was not made known to previous generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
This imagery can be likened to looking at two distant mountain peaks - one behind the other - without being able to see the valley between them. The Old Testament prophets, while they foresaw the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of God's kingdom, did not have a clear view of the Church Age—the period between Christ's first and second comings—where the Gentiles would be included as fellow heirs with the Jews in the body of Christ.
This hidden period, in which Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation through faith in Christ, was gradually unveiled through the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. This theological insight suggests that there may be gaps or undisclosed periods in other prophecies, especially concerning the timing and nature of future events, awaiting fulfillment in God's sovereign timing.
Considering the above points, do you see the possibility that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet future and part of a future tribulation period?
The interpretation you've presented suggests that the entire 70th week of Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the events surrounding the stoning of Stephen and the subsequent spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles. However, there are several reasons why this view faces challenges in aligning with the biblical text:
Duration of the 70th Week: The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 indicates that the 70th week would be a seven-year period (one 'seven' in biblical language often denotes a week of years, i.e., seven years). The idea that the 70th week was split into two parts with a gap between them, as you suggest, is not explicitly supported by the text.
Specific Events in the 70th Week: The events described in Daniel 9:27 for the 70th week, such as the confirming of a covenant and the setting up of the abomination of desolation, are typically understood in a future eschatological context and have not been historically fulfilled in the manner you describe.
Jesus' Ministry and the 70th Week: Your view suggests that the ministry of Jesus and the subsequent events, including the stoning of Stephen, encompassed the entire 70th week. However, this timeline does not align with the chronology presented in the Gospels or the book of Acts.
Continuity of the Prophecy: The prophecy in Daniel 9 concerning the 70 weeks is presented as a continuous timeline leading up to the Messiah. Interpreting the 70th week as having been partially fulfilled in the past and then halted for an extended period of time raises questions about the continuity and coherence of the prophecy.
In light of these considerations, it seems that the interpretation you've offered, while seeking to make sense of the timeline of events, may not fully align with the details and structure of the 70 weeks prophecy as presented in Daniel 9.
The concept of cosmic language in apocalyptic literature referring to times of great judgment is not unique to the Bible but is a common feature in ancient Near Eastern and Jewish apocalyptic texts. For example, in the Book of Enoch, similar cosmic imagery is used to depict eschatological events. The darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of stars, are used symbolically to signify the collapse of earthly powers and the arrival of divine judgment.
Moreover, in the broader context of ancient Near Eastern literature, cosmic phenomena were often seen as omens or signs of significant events, including divine intervention or the overthrow of rulers. These cosmic signs were believed to herald a time of great change or upheaval in the world.
Therefore, interpreting the cosmic language in Revelation and other apocalyptic texts as having a hidden or secret meaning beyond their symbolic value as indicators of divine judgment is not necessary. The use of such imagery is a literary device employed to convey the dramatic and transformative nature of the events described in these texts, rather than indicating a hidden code or esoteric meaning.
I know I've said a lot here. Much to ruminate on. No need to rush on a response. I do enjoy, however, this exchange and the respectful manner in which you’re engaging. It's refreshing!
Indeed I am enjoying our discussion also. You've caused me to do a lot of digging and I feel like pulling my hair out from all the mess that has been made of this topic! It's a minefield of madness out there. I cannot delve into all the things you wrote right now, I barely was able to focus on what I managed to (thank you Jesus!). Here is the zone in which I've chosen to focus:
Until the stoning of Stephen the order was given by Jesus "go not into the way of the Gentiles". Why?
Daniel was given that 490 years were determined upon Israel and the Jews, "from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince" 69 weeks. At the end of the 69th week, the beginning of the 70th, Messiah the Prince would come and confirm the Covenant with many for 1 week. In the midst of the week He caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease by becoming the final, ultimate sacrifice. The Covenant in His blood continued to be confirmed (to Israel) until the stoning of Stephen when they finally, after hearing the Gospel preached to the San Hedrin, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ, fully rejected the One they crucified on the cross, stoning Stephen, their final God-sent prophet, to shut him up.
I found a graphic which quite easily portrays the timeline (this was not an easy find!): https://files.catbox.moe/i8ite8.jpeg
Views on prophetic fulfillment aside do we at least agree on these numbers?
Yes, this is the classic Preterist interpretation of Daniels 70th week prophecy.
Let's try a different angle and see what we can find from other scriptural references regarding the Antichrist and his actions as they pertain to stopping sacrifices and the Abomination of Desolation (AoD). This may shed some light on why the "he" in Dan 9:27 most likely refers to the AC, not Jesus, thus confirming a gap (commonly referred to the Church Age or the Times of the Gentiles [see Luke 21:24]) of an unspecified period of time between the 69th and 70th week.
"He will confirm a covenant": The identity of the one who confirms the covenant is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27. Some argue, as you do, that it refers to the Messiah (Jesus) based on interpretations that the "covenant" refers to the new covenant in Christ's blood (Luke 22:20). However, this is not directly stated in Daniel 9:27.
"In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering": The phrase "middle of the 'seven'" implies a period of time, possibly three and a half years into a seven-year period. This event is often associated with the actions of the Antichrist. However, the direct connection between this event and the Antichrist is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27 but is inferred based on other passages in the Bible that describe the actions of the Antichrist
When considering the verses above mentioning this "man" it becomes clearer that these are the actions of the Antichrist and not Jesus. If not Jesus, then there must be a gap between the 69th and 70th week. And that means we are currently in this gap - albeit nearing the end of this period quickly.
Dont feel alone in your searches through ancient prophecies trying to understand the times. You are in some good company, for even the OT prophets searched these predictions trying to figure out when they would occur:
~ 1 Peter 1:10-12