What do you think?
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Thanks for your thoughtful response!
Indeed, John refers to the harlot as the “mother of harlots and abominations of the earth” (Revelation 17:5). While Jerusalem is likened to a harlot, this does not necessarily mean she is the ultimate “mother” or source of all harlotry. Your argument about Babylon, starting with Nimrod’s Tower of Babel, being the original source of such corruption is compelling, given its foundational role in introducing idolatrous practices that spread to other nations, including Jerusalem.
However, the imagery and context within Revelation still support the interpretation of Jerusalem as a key player in the narrative. Jerusalem’s history of spiritual unfaithfulness and its central role in the biblical narrative make it a significant symbol of apostasy.
Your point about the Protestant Reformation and the historical consequences of Rome’s religious and political power is valid. The middle ages indeed saw severe consequences for dissenters, highlighting the far-reaching impact of religious systems.
One thing I haven’t pointed out yet is the woman mentioned earlier in Revelation 12, often interpreted as representing Jerusalem, seems to be associated with events of the first century, particularly leading up to the birth of Jesus and the persecution of the early Christian church. This chapter appears to be covering the time period you are focusing on.
The transition from this vision of the woman to the vision of the harlot and the beast implies a shift in time or focus within the narrative. If the woman representing Jerusalem is primarily associated with first-century events, then the introduction of the harlot and the beast most likely signifies a later period or a broader scope of events beyond the first century. This transition aligns with a later date of composition, as proponents of a later date argue that Revelation reflects developments and challenges facing the Christian community in the late first century, such as the persecution under Emperor Domitian.
So, the first woman mentioned in Revelation clearly represents Jerusalem/Israel, given the imagery of the sun, moon, and stars (Revelation 12:1), which aligns with Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11. This strongly suggests that the second woman, the harlot, is also likely Jerusalem, especially considering the textual evidence. John explicitly identifies the harlot as “the great city” (Revelation 17:18), which he earlier defined as Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8). This identification is further supported by the Old Testament references to Jerusalem’s unfaithfulness (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20, 3:1-11; Ezekiel 16:1-43)..
Regarding the dating of the Book of Revelation, I believe it is crucial because it frames our understanding of the text’s purpose and fulfillment. Knowing whether it was written before or after 70 A.D. helps determine if the prophecies were meant for the first-century events or for future occurrences.
While it’s true that John did not include a specific date, the context and historical references within the book offer clues. Scholars use these to argue for either an early or late date. This discussion on the dating is foundational, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on the arguments for both early and late dating to see how it shapes our interpretations of Revelation.
Rev 12 pregnant woman = The New Covenant being birthed into the world - Real Christianity spirit-filled believers
Immediately Rome was there to "devour" this "child", IE to capture and reframe it under their rule - think Constantine and those blasphemous Council of Nicea and the rest..7 heads 10 horned dragon = Roman empire
12:15 serpent cast water out of his mouth to carry her away = something to do with flooding the zone with tons of bad doctrine? idk
12:17 alludes more to who the woman is - spirit-filled Christians not the CINO's of Rome's church-state system
13:1 more Roman empire allusion - of course there is distinction between the "pagan Rome" and the "Catholic Rome" 13:11 sheds more light on this second beast as looking like a lamb (oh holy Catholic fathers blah blah) yet speaking as a dragon (submit or die!) and causes the world to worship the first beast (pagan Rome) whos deadly wound was healed ? idk about that, if the wound was healed in recent centuries, have not pondered this aspect yet.
I think too a good thing to keep in mind is the division between the faithful of Israel and the unfaithful. "not all Israel are of Israel". If John was including unfaithful harlot Israel Jerusalem within the category Babylon / Rome was put into, I could see both of us being on the right track...
There's so much in Revelation I don't know about. Perhaps you could give your take on what the symbolisms mean in 12-13 and that would give me something to smash against what I believe and see where it lands me 😅
Thanks for your response! Let's delve into the symbolism in Revelation 12-13 and see how it aligns with our discussion.
Revelation 12: The Pregnant Woman:
The Dragon's Pursuit (Revelation 12:13-17):
Revelation 13: The Beasts:
Wound and Healing (Revelation 13:3, 13:12):
Faithful vs. Unfaithful Israel:
To sum up, while there are various interpretations, my view aligns with seeing the woman in Revelation 12 as representing Israel (based on the direct reference to Joseph’s dreams), the faithful remnant, or the early Christian community. The harlot in Revelation 17 could then symbolize Jerusalem in its state of apostasy, drawing from Old Testament references to Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Ezekiel 16:1-43).
Your insights into the historical and symbolic aspects of Rome and its influence are valuable. I appreciate the dialogue and the opportunity to explore these profound texts together. Let’s keep discussing and see where our interpretations converge or diverge!
Ok ok, here me out. I think we're actually quite close on this. You said
Can this not be attributed to both Israel and Christians? As it is said we are "grafted in" to the Israel vine, which would lump us together...And the Roman govt was there shortly after this "new thing" was being born to consume it! I can imagine how tricky for a believer it must have been to see that this "Holy Roman Empire" was not the same faith, there were probably many who saw it as a move of God, "look even the pagan Romans have converted!" at least until the overt wickedness begun (I assume this took some time but could be wrong).
So we have the birthing of a new (updated is probably a better term) faith, with God now dwelling in our hearts, and we have a political system (the dragon) there in wait and trying to devour this and make it into their own machination.
The harlot! Lets goo. So: if it's Jerusalem, how could it fit the title "mother" and also the description of "with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication"? I think these two are critical in ID'ing her. If you compare Jerusalem and Babylon, who had more of an influence over the kings of the earth? Israel was always pretty secluded and at the time of Christ they were basically dominated by Rome. How could Jerusalem be said to have influenced Rome in this way? I would argue that it was the other way around.. Rome influenced Jerusalem. Also, it's kind of cheeky as it's in her name itself "Mystery Babylon"... Why would she be called that? I believe John wrote Revelation in such coded language to not tip off the Roman gov't at the time or they would have stopped the circulation of the book. If it was Jerusalem in his crosshairs I don't see why he would need to veil it.