PRAYER WARRIORS: If you ever feel discouraged and that your prayers aren't important, that is satan attacking you because they ARE important.
(media.greatawakening.win)
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That’s the Calvinist view, yes.
Each timeline is fixed. I agree.
Now imagine that there are infinite timelines, with all our souls dancing each other between them in a glorious spiritual dance based on everything we all choose.
If I choose X, we go here. If you choose Y, we go there.
It’s why when I say you can blame me for all this mess, I’m right. it’s not that I’m going to steer us to salvation, that’s not my role. I am of myself nothing. It’s that if I wasn’t participating in sin, and had to this point properly allowed the Holy Spirit to work through me, and allowed myself to be led by the Will of God Almighty, where might we be?
We have seen before what one man can do when living out righteousness. We are seeing what one man can do now. It only takes one…
WWG1WGA, fren. Very literally. We are all Him.
John 10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
They wanted to stone Him for that, on the spot! There’s something important there.
I wasn't arguing against free will specifically.
I was saying that praying for X is useless because The Divine has already decided what It's going to do before the prayer was made.
What you have to essentially believe is that Divinity might have intended for Y but your praying for X led to X happening instead. This can't possibly be true otherwise that would mean the Divine isn't omniscient.
You cannot change the Divine Plan, whatever it is. Y is going to happen regardless of how many pray for X or how intensely they pray for it.
One more thing. The Divine Plan can work without violating free will, since all the punishments The Divine intends for evil have being pre-planned as well, ordained before creation as justice to evil.
That doesn't mean the actions themselves are controlled, but the reactions by fate were already determined before you were born as the Divine by Its omniscience had foreknowledge of everything you will do and thus has already determined ( I speak in past tense but really Divinity made all these choices beyond time) what your fate will be.
Now if X happens, then X was Y(The Divine Will) anyway, which means you praying for it was unnecessary. It was going to happen whether you prayed for it or not. It just happened that what you prayed for was what the Divine was going to do anyway.
Within any given timeline, you’re correct, but you’re not visualizing what I say correctly.
Why do you think so many people on this board say, “I love this timeline!”
If everything is fixed, and there’s only one timeline, there is no free will, only an illusion of it. Salvation is already determined. Prayers are already determined. God in this situation would have created some of us knowing we would sin our way into hell.
Or.. He puts us here knowing our character, from before we were ever born, and watches to see if we find our way. There are events where He does things. There are some things that may be inevitable under all timelines, but how we arrive at any place is not necessarily a given before we play it out.
Neither of us know which one of our proposals is the way things actually work, but the mechanics of this model are sound, and I like the thought of mine better.
Time is a fourth dimension beyond space. Add choice as a fifth dimension beyond time, with our souls able to move between them. God, then, is somewhere beyond that. It’s just how I think of things, fren. I saw a waking vision of it one day. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but it was beautiful
"watches to see if we find our way"
Again you're assuming a Being that doesn't have omniscience. That wouldn't be the Divine. Tests are done because whoever is doing the testing is ignorant of what the subject will do. The Divine by definition cannot be ignorant, therefore testing or seeing what someone will do isn't possible since it already knows.
Choices by finite, unknowing human beings are done within time.
Some think Angels make choices beyond time in a similar way that you think souls make choice beyond time. This is ridiculous since if they were timeless then they always existed. This is called polytheism as that would make them gods at this point. It makes more sense to say Angels exist in a different time stream rather than beyond time, so their universe/dimension might have started before ours.
Only the Divine is timeless (Always existed), everything else, including time, is contingent on Divinity. There's no such thing as a timeless choice by contingent beings that at one point didn't exist.
If you already chose to do X before time existed, then you're essentially the Divine, but since you're not omniscient, you're obviously not.