12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates
...
Thank you for the prompt. I don't know where I got the idea that they had to obey God or fulfill some requirements to fully possess the promised land.
Even still since Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets it would be counted as such, yes? Then by extension all who believe in Christ are included somehow? Can you help me hone in on what's happening here, my head is starting to spin 😅
Fren, this is a different, separate covenant from the covenant of the law (Covenant of Moses). The Mosaic Covenant is conditional, but the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional.
do the two covenants relate to one another / flow together somehow? Is the Mosaic covenant nested within the Abrahamic?
I think I recall learning about this early on in my walk.
Abraham was given the promise
Moses was given the law
Jesus fulfilled the law, and the promise is steadily being fulfilled as we speak and throughout all of time. The Law / Prophets was a temporary portion of God's ultimate plan, the promise. Am I onto the correct path here?
Yeah, this stuff can be a bit difficult... I hope you don't mind I enlisted the aid of AI to answer this question, since I'm a bit slow (and inarticulate) -
How are the mosaic and abrahamic covenants related?
The Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant are closely connected, with the latter unfolding and expanding the former [I think it means the former unfolding and expanding the latter]. Here are key points highlighting their relationship:
Unconditional vs. Conditional: The Abrahamic Covenant is unilateral and unconditional, with God making promises to Abraham without specifying conditions (Genesis 12:2-3, 15:1-21). In contrast, the Mosaic Covenant is conditional, requiring obedience to God’s laws and commands (Exodus 19-24).
Expansion and Fulfillment: The Mosaic Covenant builds upon and fulfills the promises made in the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant predicted the growth of Abraham’s descendants into a nation (Genesis 12:2-3), while the Mosaic Covenant defines Israel as a nation under God’s law (Exodus 19-24).
Signs and Symbols: Both covenants feature signs and symbols. The Abrahamic Covenant is marked by circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14), while the Mosaic Covenant is characterized by the Passover and Sabbath (Exodus 12:1-30, 20:8-11).
Purpose and Focus: The Abrahamic Covenant emphasizes God’s promise to redeem humanity and establish a relationship with His people. The Mosaic Covenant, while still focused on redemption, adds a layer of responsibility and obedience, defining Israel as a covenant people.
Temporal and Eschatological: The Mosaic Covenant is a temporary covenant, given to Israel during their wilderness wanderings and until the coming of the Messiah (Hebrews 8:13). The Abrahamic Covenant, on the other hand, is an eternal covenant, pointing to the ultimate redemption and restoration of humanity through Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:8, Romans 4:13-16).
In summary, the Mosaic Covenant is a development and expansion of the Abrahamic Covenant, with the latter providing the foundation and promise, and the former defining the terms and responsibilities of Israel as God’s covenant people.
I hope you don't mind I enlisted the aid of AI to answer this
No problem at all fren.
I do recall the concept now that we ended up on the topic. It's been a while since I've gone into this stuff.
Some thoughts:
The first thing that sticks out to me after reading that is that the Law of Moses should perhaps be applied to the government, or nation, in how they rule the people (not the Levitical or sacrificial parts). I think that was basically accomplished with the founding of America despite the corruption it has suffered. If the government, regardless of the religions of its members (or lack thereof) is bound to the last 6 commandments, there is a good foundation to have a functioning society...
...
so the Mosaic covenant was like a state of emergency during Israel's captivity and wilderness wandering. God had to preserve the remnant as best He could, so He put Israel under strict rules and burdensome rituals, both to show them the true horrors of sin and also to slow them down (as we know He already had to wipe humanity out once before due to their full-speed ahead into wickedness), and ultimately to show them how badly they needed God...
...
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic system and now we can freely access God no matter where we are or who we are. This was not the case before Christ, though there were individual outsiders who must have seen a glimpse of "the Way the Truth and the Life", as Rahab the prostitute covered for Joshua's spies, but they were very rare. Most of the gentiles were all into their various pagan crap, so were blinded to the truth. (easier to tell someone the truth than to convince them they've been lied to.. their paganism was in the way of the truth, so Israel was to be a light unto the nations, to show them how a truly godly nation should operate..)
...
Now that Christ came there is no longer any reason to worry about bloodlines. The bloodline issue was important due to God's promises about the Messiah being of a specific blood lineage. I know of no other reason to be concerned about bloodlines now.
...
just some things that came to me pondering this. Open to corrections!
...
back to the topic of physical promised land and bloodline Hebrews, how do you see this playing out? Do we even have any "Hebrews" today? Everyone's lineages seem to be thoroughly mixed up now. How do we know who's who?
Gen. 15:12-21
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates
...
Thank you for the prompt. I don't know where I got the idea that they had to obey God or fulfill some requirements to fully possess the promised land.
Even still since Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets it would be counted as such, yes? Then by extension all who believe in Christ are included somehow? Can you help me hone in on what's happening here, my head is starting to spin 😅
Fren, this is a different, separate covenant from the covenant of the law (Covenant of Moses). The Mosaic Covenant is conditional, but the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional.
I think I'm now more confused. Kek
do the two covenants relate to one another / flow together somehow? Is the Mosaic covenant nested within the Abrahamic?
I think I recall learning about this early on in my walk.
Abraham was given the promise
Moses was given the law
Jesus fulfilled the law, and the promise is steadily being fulfilled as we speak and throughout all of time. The Law / Prophets was a temporary portion of God's ultimate plan, the promise. Am I onto the correct path here?
Yeah, this stuff can be a bit difficult... I hope you don't mind I enlisted the aid of AI to answer this question, since I'm a bit slow (and inarticulate) -
How are the mosaic and abrahamic covenants related?
The Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant are closely connected, with the latter unfolding and expanding the former [I think it means the former unfolding and expanding the latter]. Here are key points highlighting their relationship:
Unconditional vs. Conditional: The Abrahamic Covenant is unilateral and unconditional, with God making promises to Abraham without specifying conditions (Genesis 12:2-3, 15:1-21). In contrast, the Mosaic Covenant is conditional, requiring obedience to God’s laws and commands (Exodus 19-24).
Expansion and Fulfillment: The Mosaic Covenant builds upon and fulfills the promises made in the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant predicted the growth of Abraham’s descendants into a nation (Genesis 12:2-3), while the Mosaic Covenant defines Israel as a nation under God’s law (Exodus 19-24).
Signs and Symbols: Both covenants feature signs and symbols. The Abrahamic Covenant is marked by circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14), while the Mosaic Covenant is characterized by the Passover and Sabbath (Exodus 12:1-30, 20:8-11).
Purpose and Focus: The Abrahamic Covenant emphasizes God’s promise to redeem humanity and establish a relationship with His people. The Mosaic Covenant, while still focused on redemption, adds a layer of responsibility and obedience, defining Israel as a covenant people.
Temporal and Eschatological: The Mosaic Covenant is a temporary covenant, given to Israel during their wilderness wanderings and until the coming of the Messiah (Hebrews 8:13). The Abrahamic Covenant, on the other hand, is an eternal covenant, pointing to the ultimate redemption and restoration of humanity through Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:8, Romans 4:13-16).
In summary, the Mosaic Covenant is a development and expansion of the Abrahamic Covenant, with the latter providing the foundation and promise, and the former defining the terms and responsibilities of Israel as God’s covenant people.
No problem at all fren.
I do recall the concept now that we ended up on the topic. It's been a while since I've gone into this stuff.
Some thoughts:
The first thing that sticks out to me after reading that is that the Law of Moses should perhaps be applied to the government, or nation, in how they rule the people (not the Levitical or sacrificial parts). I think that was basically accomplished with the founding of America despite the corruption it has suffered. If the government, regardless of the religions of its members (or lack thereof) is bound to the last 6 commandments, there is a good foundation to have a functioning society...
...
so the Mosaic covenant was like a state of emergency during Israel's captivity and wilderness wandering. God had to preserve the remnant as best He could, so He put Israel under strict rules and burdensome rituals, both to show them the true horrors of sin and also to slow them down (as we know He already had to wipe humanity out once before due to their full-speed ahead into wickedness), and ultimately to show them how badly they needed God...
...
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic system and now we can freely access God no matter where we are or who we are. This was not the case before Christ, though there were individual outsiders who must have seen a glimpse of "the Way the Truth and the Life", as Rahab the prostitute covered for Joshua's spies, but they were very rare. Most of the gentiles were all into their various pagan crap, so were blinded to the truth. (easier to tell someone the truth than to convince them they've been lied to.. their paganism was in the way of the truth, so Israel was to be a light unto the nations, to show them how a truly godly nation should operate..)
...
Now that Christ came there is no longer any reason to worry about bloodlines. The bloodline issue was important due to God's promises about the Messiah being of a specific blood lineage. I know of no other reason to be concerned about bloodlines now.
...
just some things that came to me pondering this. Open to corrections!
...
back to the topic of physical promised land and bloodline Hebrews, how do you see this playing out? Do we even have any "Hebrews" today? Everyone's lineages seem to be thoroughly mixed up now. How do we know who's who?