Pay for performance doesn't work bc teachers are working with "raw materials" of varying quality.
You wouldn't pay a blacksmith for how many horseshoes he made when you were delivering him different quality metals to produce them with.
The same goes for children. There are structural and psychological and other issues which impede ability to learn. It is profoundly wrong to expect equal results from them
Well said. I don’t have a problem with the idea of merit pay. I want to see it actually working. But, until you have actually been there, in a classroom of 30 with special needs kids, ADHD, kids who don’t want to be there, helicopter parents whose kiddo can do no wrong….😳.
It can be done, but not every child is going to cross the same finish line at the end of the year. Parents need to support their child and the teacher/school. Teachers need to have some discretion in how to teach.
I’ve been a retired teacher for about 14 years. I find myself thinking about the DOE finally being abolished and the education of our children is now in the hands of state & local communities. I believe this is an exciting time to be an educator.
This is true. I had a student with cerebral palsy or something (it's been 20 years, I forget) and his parents would send him in to school with soiled diapers bc the aide was certified to change him.
indeed. Also people follow incentives. Book Freakanomics point out in one study - (chicago I believe it was...of course) - that when an area ties financial incentives to test scores - teachers and institutions just started cheating on behalf of the students so they can boost their pay. (Oh I get a bonus if you all score 100% on the test? - ok here are the answers, thanks for the bonus check!)
Measuring improvement over classes baseline should give pay benefits maybe - but it needs to have a lot of checks and balances to avoid devolving into just another scam of fraud reporting.
My sincerest Apologies that you still haven't learned much about the Learning Capacity of Humans....
Yes, we are all different, but the only difference between me and my Friend XXXXX is that he CHOSE to be an asshole and stay home smoking Weed an when he did try to join the Army, he CHOSE to be an ASSHOLE and get kicked out for Fighting in Basic Training....
I did 6 Years in, and have TWO Honorable Discharges, among other accolades....
I am my own Self Made Man, Alcoholic by my own Choice, RETIRED, whereas he might never retire....
Same Age, Same Grade, Same school, Exactly the Same Educations, Different Metals....
My condolences that you have no concept of the differences in learning capacity of people born with disabilities, exposed to lead, etc etc. And clearly lack the empathy and humility to try to understand that your perspective is limited.
God bless you friend and may he open your eyes to that which I speak of.
Oh I get the Real Disabilities, but LEAD isn't one of them, I and ALL of my friends grew up in houses with Lead Based Paint, absolutely NONE of us ever ATE any of the paint chips, and IF we had, we would have gotten beaten within an inch of our lives for eating a NONFOOD SUBSTANCE, plus called Stupid for about a year by our Friends for doing so, that whole thing about kids eating Paint Chips is a 100% Total LIE....
Vaxxxines on the other hand....
But even my most Mentally disabled Friend was intelligent enough to know most of the Common Sense things that these current Moronic Generations think they need LABEL WARNINGS for....
My Perspective isn't ""LIMITED"", its very well Earned, Collected, Condensed, Collated, and Summarized, we've been bamboozled, lied to, an frauded, we have been Mentally Abused, Mislead, Misinformed, and heavily Propagandized, especially in the direction where, some lean into Emotions to an allow Empathy to rule their Minds, whereas others move towards Logic an Common Sense to find out what is it, and Why is it....
Way too many People lean way too heavily upon their Emotions, I no longer do, I have had enough of other people manipulating me via my Emotions, that shit ended a very long time ago, and I have worked from Logic and Common Sense ever since, because Emotions Dictate you Cole the Scraped Knee, or the Skinned Elbow, while Ignoring the Slippery Floor that Caused each, or you Punish the Janitor for Mopping, and not the children running into the WET FLOOR AREA....
Joey:: Touches That, Screams in pain, has a first or Second Degree Burn on his fingers, an is now pissed his pants, shit himself, vomited profusely, and is in need of Medical Attentions....
Dad:: {As he administers First Aid} I told you to NOT Touch that, because it would hurt you, an now you have been hurt....
Joey:: [Later after bawling his ass off] Why didn't you tell me???
Dad::: Joey, I did tell you, I told you to Not Touch that because it would hurt you, but you went an DISOBEYED me an touche it anyway, an you got yourself Hurt. Do You see??
And this is where we are in our Society.....
The ADULTS keep saying ""Don't Do That"" it will ENSLAVE YOU.....
And the Child Minded keep Pushing to DO THAT....
I really hope you get the Jist of this, it isn't that I'm being unemotional, it's just that I WAS Joey, an now I'm Dad, and, through EXPERIENCE, I know Better.....
Oh I get it, I'm a dad too...but there are people like a child I follow on FB that has leukodystrophy. He attends school, but will never understand a lot of what he will learn, because of his genetic condition. He is non verbal in 3rd grade. The happiest and nicest kid you'd ever want to meet but he literally cannot do certain things neurological kids can do. In a walker, etc.
There's def the type you talk about that don't want to or are too lazy or distracted by the world to do what they should but there are plenty like my friend who sadly will never be able to do those things though they'd love to.
Then there are the kids abused, forced to be drug mules for their parents, if they have them, falling asleep in my 2nd period English class at 14 when they're still in 7th grade bc they're out dealing drugs at night to help their mom keep the shitty rental. Kids who were hiding behind a sofa when gang members broke in and killed the family member who they lived with etc etc. I've seen a lot. Those kids need extra help to get their acts together and school does not do a good job of providing it
Pay for performance doesn't work bc teachers are working with "raw materials" of varying quality.
You wouldn't pay a blacksmith for how many horseshoes he made when you were delivering him different quality metals to produce them with.
The same goes for children. There are structural and psychological and other issues which impede ability to learn. It is profoundly wrong to expect equal results from them
Well said. I don’t have a problem with the idea of merit pay. I want to see it actually working. But, until you have actually been there, in a classroom of 30 with special needs kids, ADHD, kids who don’t want to be there, helicopter parents whose kiddo can do no wrong….😳.
It can be done, but not every child is going to cross the same finish line at the end of the year. Parents need to support their child and the teacher/school. Teachers need to have some discretion in how to teach.
I’ve been a retired teacher for about 14 years. I find myself thinking about the DOE finally being abolished and the education of our children is now in the hands of state & local communities. I believe this is an exciting time to be an educator.
All raw materials have a base line to start.
Kids don't. Beyond maybe breathing, eating, and walking upright. I've worked with all ability levels and backgrounds.
Which is not to say I have the answers. I don't. That's why I don't teach anymore.
This is true. I had a student with cerebral palsy or something (it's been 20 years, I forget) and his parents would send him in to school with soiled diapers bc the aide was certified to change him.
indeed. Also people follow incentives. Book Freakanomics point out in one study - (chicago I believe it was...of course) - that when an area ties financial incentives to test scores - teachers and institutions just started cheating on behalf of the students so they can boost their pay. (Oh I get a bonus if you all score 100% on the test? - ok here are the answers, thanks for the bonus check!)
Measuring improvement over classes baseline should give pay benefits maybe - but it needs to have a lot of checks and balances to avoid devolving into just another scam of fraud reporting.
My sincerest Apologies that you still haven't learned much about the Learning Capacity of Humans....
Yes, we are all different, but the only difference between me and my Friend XXXXX is that he CHOSE to be an asshole and stay home smoking Weed an when he did try to join the Army, he CHOSE to be an ASSHOLE and get kicked out for Fighting in Basic Training....
I did 6 Years in, and have TWO Honorable Discharges, among other accolades....
I am my own Self Made Man, Alcoholic by my own Choice, RETIRED, whereas he might never retire....
Same Age, Same Grade, Same school, Exactly the Same Educations, Different Metals....
My condolences that you have no concept of the differences in learning capacity of people born with disabilities, exposed to lead, etc etc. And clearly lack the empathy and humility to try to understand that your perspective is limited.
God bless you friend and may he open your eyes to that which I speak of.
Oh I get the Real Disabilities, but LEAD isn't one of them, I and ALL of my friends grew up in houses with Lead Based Paint, absolutely NONE of us ever ATE any of the paint chips, and IF we had, we would have gotten beaten within an inch of our lives for eating a NONFOOD SUBSTANCE, plus called Stupid for about a year by our Friends for doing so, that whole thing about kids eating Paint Chips is a 100% Total LIE....
Vaxxxines on the other hand....
But even my most Mentally disabled Friend was intelligent enough to know most of the Common Sense things that these current Moronic Generations think they need LABEL WARNINGS for....
My Perspective isn't ""LIMITED"", its very well Earned, Collected, Condensed, Collated, and Summarized, we've been bamboozled, lied to, an frauded, we have been Mentally Abused, Mislead, Misinformed, and heavily Propagandized, especially in the direction where, some lean into Emotions to an allow Empathy to rule their Minds, whereas others move towards Logic an Common Sense to find out what is it, and Why is it....
Way too many People lean way too heavily upon their Emotions, I no longer do, I have had enough of other people manipulating me via my Emotions, that shit ended a very long time ago, and I have worked from Logic and Common Sense ever since, because Emotions Dictate you Cole the Scraped Knee, or the Skinned Elbow, while Ignoring the Slippery Floor that Caused each, or you Punish the Janitor for Mopping, and not the children running into the WET FLOOR AREA....
IT comes own to something like this::
Dad:: Hey Joey, Don't Touch That, it's hot, it'll hurt you....
Joey:: Touches That, Screams in pain, has a first or Second Degree Burn on his fingers, an is now pissed his pants, shit himself, vomited profusely, and is in need of Medical Attentions....
Dad:: {As he administers First Aid} I told you to NOT Touch that, because it would hurt you, an now you have been hurt....
Joey:: [Later after bawling his ass off] Why didn't you tell me???
Dad::: Joey, I did tell you, I told you to Not Touch that because it would hurt you, but you went an DISOBEYED me an touche it anyway, an you got yourself Hurt. Do You see??
And this is where we are in our Society.....
The ADULTS keep saying ""Don't Do That"" it will ENSLAVE YOU.....
And the Child Minded keep Pushing to DO THAT....
I really hope you get the Jist of this, it isn't that I'm being unemotional, it's just that I WAS Joey, an now I'm Dad, and, through EXPERIENCE, I know Better.....
Oh I get it, I'm a dad too...but there are people like a child I follow on FB that has leukodystrophy. He attends school, but will never understand a lot of what he will learn, because of his genetic condition. He is non verbal in 3rd grade. The happiest and nicest kid you'd ever want to meet but he literally cannot do certain things neurological kids can do. In a walker, etc.
There's def the type you talk about that don't want to or are too lazy or distracted by the world to do what they should but there are plenty like my friend who sadly will never be able to do those things though they'd love to.
Then there are the kids abused, forced to be drug mules for their parents, if they have them, falling asleep in my 2nd period English class at 14 when they're still in 7th grade bc they're out dealing drugs at night to help their mom keep the shitty rental. Kids who were hiding behind a sofa when gang members broke in and killed the family member who they lived with etc etc. I've seen a lot. Those kids need extra help to get their acts together and school does not do a good job of providing it
I see what you are saying also though