Israel is using as a basis for it's modern international policy... the writings of prophet Zechariah from about 520 BCE, or roughly 2,546 years ago in the early Persian period.
I say that an event occurred in 0 BCE that changed everything that happened before it.
Yeah... I think we don't need to establish a court system based on a 2,550 year old prophecy. There has to be a cutoff date somewhere.
Thanks Bud. Doesn't "Noahide" means that all humanity, Gentiles and Jews, gets to contribute? Why would one nation's interests necessarily override those of many others? I never see those dots connecting in all the speculation.
Obviously I don't support laws treating Christianity as idolatry or a capital crime. But that's not a requirement of Noahidism as interpreted authoritatively by Judaism or Christianity. Further, Christianity is already a capital crime in Muslim states, so we have a much more real threat to object to.
There are Gentile movements to set up Noahide laws too, but the Jews take a disproportionate interest in the process because they want to protect themselves in advance (like their disproportionate interests elsewhere). Muslims e.g. don't participate in Noahidism because they think Shariah is good for everyone. Via Noahidism, Jews admit that Mosaic details aren't for everyone, and of course the Christians at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 agreed, so there's a closer tie there than the concept of universal law in Islam.
So everyone favoring Noahide laws should introduce them as being for all. Your article links https://brit-olam.org/congress/ which is introduced as being for all. But your article proposes this analysis:
Hijacking bible verses to justify a new global Noahide courts is a deliberate attempt to trick people into submitting to a Judaic legal system in which christians will be persecuted and eventually beheaded for their faith in Jesus. We are watching a well financed, highly organized global Judaic network go live in real time, complete with its own international finance committee, mandatory fees, and a unified curriculum. Individuals are being pressured to stand before this newly formed Rabbinic Court to receive an official compliance status, completely subordinating themselves to a Jewish group of judges. As this entire infrastructure prepares to launch this November, the convergence of Western political laws, twisted Judaic theology, and international Noahide courts should serve as an urgent wake up call that a dangerous system of Noahide global control is being built right before our eyes under the fake banner of universal moral unity and under the banner of “prophecy fulfillment”.
In theory, any culture or religious org is free to certify, or not, that a universal court meets its specs, and the involvement of the Jews is for the purposes of that certification, namely to state that the court does not conflict with their religion. However, the fact that this is tied to a single leader (Oury Cherki) and organization (Brit Olam) is helpful, as it might not go any further than the last attempt, quoting from my notes:
On 2006-01-10, ten non-Jewish men met with the nascent Sanhedrin and were appointed as the "High Council of Noahides", and pledged "to uphold the Seven Laws of Noah in all their details, according to Oral Law of Moses under the guidance of the developing Sanhedrin." Right now both that Sanhedrin and that Council are little more than mordant wikis, and it appears each council member is pursuing Noahidism in his own way. Notable members include Baptist archaeologist Vendyl Jones (died 2010); Baptist Jack E. Saunders; radio host and Jones protege James D. Long (resigned 2007); and Catholic Roger Grattan.
If this movement didn't go anywhere, perhaps Cherki's won't either.
Important: Now, by digging deep into Cherki's site, I do find this specific (which is not advertised upfront and which does not work well with the universal introduction you describe):
It's best to read this statement aloud: "I pledge my allegiance to HaShem, God of Israel, Creator and King of the Universe and to God's Torah. I pledge to observe the Seven Laws of Noah, in their details, according to the Oral Law of Moshe under the guidance of the rabbis. Baruch Ata Adonai-Blessed are You God, King of the universe, Who has given me life, supported me, and sustained me till this day."
The Seven Basic Noahide Laws: 1. The Prohibition Against Idolatry* in all Forms .... *The Prohibition Against Idolatry in all forms It is important to note that if you believe that Jesus is god or an incarnation of god, you would not be able to make this declaration sincerely. The Hebrew tradition is clear that God is one and cannot become a human form ever. Please accept our wishes for a blessed life, and may you continue learning the Bible with us.
Well, there you go then. "Brit Olam" is not a Noahide movement after all but a quiet but overt non-Christian movement (and thus a cult). See, my concept is that the Hebrew tradition rightly read does not prohibit Jesus's incarnation, and that Talmudic discussion of Noahide law plus the prevailing Jewish opinion that Christianity is a special case requiring circumspection means that the religion does not as a religion speak against Jesus. If there were a true Noahite movement it would accommodate the Jewish reading that Christianity is not necessarily idolatry, and not the also-Jewish reading by a few rabbis that it certainly is. If your source had taken 5 minutes to dig into the website and find this damning page, then it would've been clear from the start.
So, if you'd like me to join you in affirming that Brit Olam is not a true Noahide movement as it purports, by holding off on this footnote until the very page where it asks people to make their vow with their interpretation, I'm all in with you. But that doesn't mean that a Noahide movement must necessarily involve that interpretation, because it's not proven to be an interpretation of Judaism at large (i.e. by proof that I've challenged people to present for 5 years).
Someone certainly knows their Noahide history. If you say there is nothing to be concerned about because it won't go anywhere, is tis where i should be concerned?
If in one year it was actually going somewhere, I'd be concerned, because this particular one is a cult. Yeah, I guess I'm using Gamaliel's rule. All the planning talk and pretense of uniqueness is standard for the movements, but they have incredible trouble demonstrating it.
If they slaughter the red heifer, I'd be concerned. If the nascent Sanhedrin comes out of their hiding and starts pronouncing everywhere, I'd be concerned.
As a Christian, I accept the Acts 15 binding council, which also defines laws of Noah in a way that is normative for Christianity, which is directly opposed to this rabbi on the point of idolatry. But most Jews don't put their neck out like that.
OTOH there are a few rabbis experimenting with talking nicely about Jesus and Christianity, and those are the ones who could influence the Jews at large to get the comms figured out.
Israel is what you see.
The Vatican is what controls what you see.
Tick tock.
Noahide...isn't that what kept the ark dude's meat together?
Good question.
Israel is using as a basis for it's modern international policy... the writings of prophet Zechariah from about 520 BCE, or roughly 2,546 years ago in the early Persian period.
I say that an event occurred in 0 BCE that changed everything that happened before it.
Yeah... I think we don't need to establish a court system based on a 2,550 year old prophecy. There has to be a cutoff date somewhere.
Agreed.
The Seven Laws of Noah as traditionally enumerated in the Babylonian Talmud
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
To establish courts of justice.
The first one is the most concerning as they consider Jesus an idol The PENALTY is DEATH
but jews worship money as an idol dont they?
Thanks Bud. Doesn't "Noahide" means that all humanity, Gentiles and Jews, gets to contribute? Why would one nation's interests necessarily override those of many others? I never see those dots connecting in all the speculation.
This is the second time you've enter into the conversation supporting Noahide laws. If they were for all, they would be introduced that way.
Obviously I don't support laws treating Christianity as idolatry or a capital crime. But that's not a requirement of Noahidism as interpreted authoritatively by Judaism or Christianity. Further, Christianity is already a capital crime in Muslim states, so we have a much more real threat to object to.
There are Gentile movements to set up Noahide laws too, but the Jews take a disproportionate interest in the process because they want to protect themselves in advance (like their disproportionate interests elsewhere). Muslims e.g. don't participate in Noahidism because they think Shariah is good for everyone. Via Noahidism, Jews admit that Mosaic details aren't for everyone, and of course the Christians at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 agreed, so there's a closer tie there than the concept of universal law in Islam.
So everyone favoring Noahide laws should introduce them as being for all. Your article links https://brit-olam.org/congress/ which is introduced as being for all. But your article proposes this analysis:
In theory, any culture or religious org is free to certify, or not, that a universal court meets its specs, and the involvement of the Jews is for the purposes of that certification, namely to state that the court does not conflict with their religion. However, the fact that this is tied to a single leader (Oury Cherki) and organization (Brit Olam) is helpful, as it might not go any further than the last attempt, quoting from my notes:
If this movement didn't go anywhere, perhaps Cherki's won't either.
Important: Now, by digging deep into Cherki's site, I do find this specific (which is not advertised upfront and which does not work well with the universal introduction you describe):
https://noahideworldcenter.org/pages/preliminary-noahide-self-declaration
Well, there you go then. "Brit Olam" is not a Noahide movement after all but a quiet but overt non-Christian movement (and thus a cult). See, my concept is that the Hebrew tradition rightly read does not prohibit Jesus's incarnation, and that Talmudic discussion of Noahide law plus the prevailing Jewish opinion that Christianity is a special case requiring circumspection means that the religion does not as a religion speak against Jesus. If there were a true Noahite movement it would accommodate the Jewish reading that Christianity is not necessarily idolatry, and not the also-Jewish reading by a few rabbis that it certainly is. If your source had taken 5 minutes to dig into the website and find this damning page, then it would've been clear from the start.
So, if you'd like me to join you in affirming that Brit Olam is not a true Noahide movement as it purports, by holding off on this footnote until the very page where it asks people to make their vow with their interpretation, I'm all in with you. But that doesn't mean that a Noahide movement must necessarily involve that interpretation, because it's not proven to be an interpretation of Judaism at large (i.e. by proof that I've challenged people to present for 5 years).
Someone certainly knows their Noahide history. If you say there is nothing to be concerned about because it won't go anywhere, is tis where i should be concerned?
If in one year it was actually going somewhere, I'd be concerned, because this particular one is a cult. Yeah, I guess I'm using Gamaliel's rule. All the planning talk and pretense of uniqueness is standard for the movements, but they have incredible trouble demonstrating it.
If they slaughter the red heifer, I'd be concerned. If the nascent Sanhedrin comes out of their hiding and starts pronouncing everywhere, I'd be concerned.
As a Christian, I accept the Acts 15 binding council, which also defines laws of Noah in a way that is normative for Christianity, which is directly opposed to this rabbi on the point of idolatry. But most Jews don't put their neck out like that.
OTOH there are a few rabbis experimenting with talking nicely about Jesus and Christianity, and those are the ones who could influence the Jews at large to get the comms figured out.
Thanks for summarizing where things stand, to the best of your knowledge.