as you study that passage, recognize the larger purpose of God's plan is to bring all His children home. you know the prodigal son, the laborers in the vineyard, Peter asking how many times should I forgive my brother who sins against me...?
there is both a human and a divine purpose for earthly justice, but don't confuse the two.
the human purpose is to maintain the integrity of the human community -- allowing evil to go unchecked is like a cancer.
the divine purpose here is to increase the possibilities that sinning person will come to see the light -- understand how he's hurt others, and in his despair may seek a better way. it's far better for us to come to these realizations here on earth, when we can still do something about it.
it's like step 8 in AA: “Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.” it's much better the alcoholic experience the fullness of consequences of how he's harmed others. likewise, when we isolate the criminals and take away whatever evil cup they drink from, we are giving the Heavenly Father a greater chance to reach that lost son and retrieve him.
of course some have so solidified their association with evil - have made their final conscious choice to reject the Father and all his Love and Mercy and are truly lost, un-salvable. but only the Father can know the spiritual status of His children. what if there was, buried deep within that tortured mind, the tiniest ember of faith? what if that ember were fanned and had the potential to ignite into a burning light of living faith? even the most sinful could be saved by faith.
but Jesus gave us a technique to deal with the conundrum. Love the sinner, Hate the sin. He demands we be ruthless and unyielding in rejecting Sin. so pour all your passion against evil into that. and though you may find it impossible to love the unrepentant sinner, you can turn your love to the Father and pray for His Will in that sinner's life. you may find it easier to make these difficult prayers in a community of fellow believers.
“Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.’”
Deuteronomy 32:35 NKJV
“Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.”
Romans 12:19 NKJV
“For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.””
Hebrews 10:30 NKJV
Judgement is for the uncertain. Anyone who rapes, tortures, kills then eats children are going to fucking suffer the wrath of God through my bare hands, so help me God if I ever get a hold of a single one of them.
Your going to get two different responses. Most Baptists, Presbyterians, Calvanists, Pre-destinationist crowd will tell you that everything that happens is Gods will and He will just sovereignly choose to do certain things and put certain leaders in place. Rubbish. If this was the case—God would be responsible for every rape, murder, and evil that happens every day.
The Pentecostal, full-gospel crowd believes that Christ gave us the keys of authority to fight the evil principalities in this world. We have responsibilities to act. God uses people. Why didn’t He just free the Israelites from Egypt himself? He wanted to use Moses.
If you are a Christian— you fight spiritual powers now. Fight in prayer, we don’t kill with the sword. God is the judge but you have to speak (prophesy) against the enemy. You can speak God’s judgement, “may they be brought low, put to an open shame”. If you know the Bible, you know Gods will for those who come against the Church (God’s children). Jesus spoke to the Pharisees VERY differently than he spoke to the crowds . Also, Saul commanded a witchcraft worker to be struck with blindness. Not to kill him—but to be shamed and brought low. “What you bind on earth—I will bind in heaven” you HAVE to use the power of your tongue. I would recommend buying snd reading “The Believers Authority” by Kenneth Hagin
We have a duty to bring light to the world—AND expose the darkness.
Most Christians get an A+ with the first part—and a D- on the second half
God's word in the Bible says to hate evil, but love your neighbour. I guess, love them, unless they're irredeemable... if you sense evil, it's OK to scream from the rooftops. It is our duty. Expose them, and the light will destroy them.
What if the "light" is Jesus's followers? In other words, what if the "light" is those loyal to the Crown of the Almighty? Are we the light that extinguishes the dark?
There are a lot of scriptures and commands to consider, and the strongest is the warning about discernment. Use discernment, for it over-rides most things. Only you may know in the time required, and if you do not, assume nothing. It's best to remain meek in the face of adversity, but rather expose it for the lions. Your purpose my not be for the kill, but rather for the hunt.
Discernment: Its deeply frustrating. Voices from both the demons and the angels constantly debate the judgment of righteous and evil decisions/perceptions on a millisecond basis. It can be overwhelming.
Of course. Pray brother, it's the only way. Do not act before thought. These times are going to be the biggest test we will ever face. I'm not afraid to die, because death is only temporary if you truly believe in Christ. Much love and peace to you and your family.
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
In this verse, Jude urges his readers to "snatch out of the fire" unbelievers who are perilously close to entering eternal punishment. A key point made in this letter is the danger posed by false teachers. Not only do these men place themselves in danger of eternal punishment (Jude 1:13), they can also disrupt the faith of others (Jude 1:10–12). For those who are not in open rebellion, but are merely confused or suffering from doubt, our response should be that of mercy. We need to seek their redemption, not their condemnation (Jude 1:22).
At the same time, Jude portrays some unbelievers as so contaminated by immorality that this compassion needs to come with sensible caution. It is commendable to reach grossly immoral unbelievers, but it is unacceptable to be drawn into their immorality. Jesus reached out with the message of forgiveness to the most sinful members of society (Mark 2:15–17), but He did not participate in their sin (Hebrews 4:15). Nor did He approve of it (John 8:11).
The sum of it is, there are people who are evil yes. And we should try to save them.
But there are people who are so evil, trying to save them is a danger unto itself. What good is trying to save someone if the only way to meet them half way is to corrupt yourself?
For such people, we must have a stern hand. We must deprive them of what permits their great evil, so they have nothing left to lose and everything to gain from casting off their mantle of evil.
Sure, but be aware that they might fight to the death to prevent you from taking that which permits them to sin.
You can't make them save themselves. If you press to hard, they may kill themselves, or you, when confronted with a reality where they can no longer sin.
In such cases, God says to dust your feet off and leave them be.
However, if they force you to accept them then you can't just ignore them.
If you can't ignore them, and you can't convince them, and they are threatening your own salvation, then what is left for you to do? Let them?
They may take your life, but when they try to take your soul, the only option is to fight back, and not play Mr. Nice Guy anymore. They become Satan, which means Adversary.
Universe -> One Verse -> One Word -> The Word
Satan -> Adversary -> Against the Verse -> Against The Word
The ultimate evil is the rationale that the ends justify the means.
If you attempt to save another, but in turn you corrupt your self by participating in their evils, then such a foolish ambition itself is evil.
There are different forms of Christianity, but I'm fairly certain this "damnation" bit is only entertained by a minority of them. If you believe that God only creates things that are good, and that he is "Well pleased," then there is no room for Him to make mistakes and condemn those mistakes to eternity. God is Perfect, not fallible.
I'm not an expert in Biblical study, but I have always relied on the KJV for over fifty years. There really are no good answers for what/who Satan is, so the only way to consider it is to look for the answers from the other direction, the "God direction." If God created all, and everything created perfect, then there is no hell, or those creatures sent there for eternal damnation. God is Love, not God is whimsical, or God is unpredictable.
I also know that a lot was added in to Christian dogma, as well as some "subtle changes" made to The Bible during the Council of Nicea. The goal of the Council was to create a system whereby its adherents would feel obligated, or otherwise guilty if they didn't, give tithings to an organized Church. Beware of this kind of thing. Some parts of the original Church were an evil abomination of Christianity. Some of that dogma persists today.
I personally believe that there is no such thing as hell other than what we humans make for ourselves in this "mortal dream," if you will. There are lessons to be learned, and only God understands the totality of Creation. I believe references to Satan are allegorical, if anything, since The Bible is a collection of writers, some recording historical detail, some expressing opinion.
Yes, and yes. Fight in the name of the Lord. But vengeance will be His. As much as I'd love to start striking back and taking revenge now, that isn't our place. Our place is to fight and suffer. This is our penence for reliving the mistakes of our forebears.
Please help me understand what you mean by "fight". Please be honest, because I tend to agree with you. However, many Christians that I discuss this with will abhor any sort of action to attack evil.
Cardinal Vigano said in his letter to President Trump (from the Q drops) that this is a battle between the Children of Light and Children of Darkness.
and this parable below gives the same message.
so I think there is something bigger going on, and our best 'weapon' is prayer. the 'battle' is in the spirit realm, we tame that, and we won't have violent battles in this world.
---Also interesting that Fauci means 'sickle'....
Matthew 13
36 Then sent Jesus the multitude away, and went into the house. And his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of that field.
37 [g]Then answered he, and said to them, He that soweth the good seed, is the son of man,
38 And the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom, and the tares are the children of that wicked one.
39 And the enemy that soweth them, is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers be the Angels.
40 As then the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his Angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity,
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the just men shine as the sun in the kingdom of their father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And to spread the Gospel, the idea I believe is to limit the ability of evil to spread. I am not expert by any means, I call out Evil when I see it, and protect and prepare for those I love in the meantime.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.
It is not our place to be executing angels of justice on God's behalf. While Man's justice needs to be pursued, it will always be flawed.
Can you refer me to the verse you are quoting? I'd like to study this particular part of the Word.
as you study that passage, recognize the larger purpose of God's plan is to bring all His children home. you know the prodigal son, the laborers in the vineyard, Peter asking how many times should I forgive my brother who sins against me...?
there is both a human and a divine purpose for earthly justice, but don't confuse the two.
the human purpose is to maintain the integrity of the human community -- allowing evil to go unchecked is like a cancer.
the divine purpose here is to increase the possibilities that sinning person will come to see the light -- understand how he's hurt others, and in his despair may seek a better way. it's far better for us to come to these realizations here on earth, when we can still do something about it.
it's like step 8 in AA: “Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.” it's much better the alcoholic experience the fullness of consequences of how he's harmed others. likewise, when we isolate the criminals and take away whatever evil cup they drink from, we are giving the Heavenly Father a greater chance to reach that lost son and retrieve him.
of course some have so solidified their association with evil - have made their final conscious choice to reject the Father and all his Love and Mercy and are truly lost, un-salvable. but only the Father can know the spiritual status of His children. what if there was, buried deep within that tortured mind, the tiniest ember of faith? what if that ember were fanned and had the potential to ignite into a burning light of living faith? even the most sinful could be saved by faith.
but Jesus gave us a technique to deal with the conundrum. Love the sinner, Hate the sin. He demands we be ruthless and unyielding in rejecting Sin. so pour all your passion against evil into that. and though you may find it impossible to love the unrepentant sinner, you can turn your love to the Father and pray for His Will in that sinner's life. you may find it easier to make these difficult prayers in a community of fellow believers.
“Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.’” Deuteronomy 32:35 NKJV
“Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.” Romans 12:19 NKJV
“For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”” Hebrews 10:30 NKJV
No, it is not your place to judge.
Is it not our duty to swim upstream against the flow of evil?
Judgement is for the uncertain. Anyone who rapes, tortures, kills then eats children are going to fucking suffer the wrath of God through my bare hands, so help me God if I ever get a hold of a single one of them.
Your going to get two different responses. Most Baptists, Presbyterians, Calvanists, Pre-destinationist crowd will tell you that everything that happens is Gods will and He will just sovereignly choose to do certain things and put certain leaders in place. Rubbish. If this was the case—God would be responsible for every rape, murder, and evil that happens every day.
The Pentecostal, full-gospel crowd believes that Christ gave us the keys of authority to fight the evil principalities in this world. We have responsibilities to act. God uses people. Why didn’t He just free the Israelites from Egypt himself? He wanted to use Moses.
If you are a Christian— you fight spiritual powers now. Fight in prayer, we don’t kill with the sword. God is the judge but you have to speak (prophesy) against the enemy. You can speak God’s judgement, “may they be brought low, put to an open shame”. If you know the Bible, you know Gods will for those who come against the Church (God’s children). Jesus spoke to the Pharisees VERY differently than he spoke to the crowds . Also, Saul commanded a witchcraft worker to be struck with blindness. Not to kill him—but to be shamed and brought low. “What you bind on earth—I will bind in heaven” you HAVE to use the power of your tongue. I would recommend buying snd reading “The Believers Authority” by Kenneth Hagin
We have a duty to bring light to the world—AND expose the darkness. Most Christians get an A+ with the first part—and a D- on the second half
Can you refer me to the quoted scripture? I'd like to read it.
What in particular? The power He gave us to fight… Mark 16:17
Read the whole book of Acts
The expose the darkness part. I think this is what He is guiding me to investigate
God's word in the Bible says to hate evil, but love your neighbour. I guess, love them, unless they're irredeemable... if you sense evil, it's OK to scream from the rooftops. It is our duty. Expose them, and the light will destroy them.
What if the "light" is Jesus's followers? In other words, what if the "light" is those loyal to the Crown of the Almighty? Are we the light that extinguishes the dark?
I can't say for sure brother, but perhaps if the time comes, you will be told.
You don't seem to sure. Can you explain your reservations? I truly want to know.
There are a lot of scriptures and commands to consider, and the strongest is the warning about discernment. Use discernment, for it over-rides most things. Only you may know in the time required, and if you do not, assume nothing. It's best to remain meek in the face of adversity, but rather expose it for the lions. Your purpose my not be for the kill, but rather for the hunt.
Discernment: Its deeply frustrating. Voices from both the demons and the angels constantly debate the judgment of righteous and evil decisions/perceptions on a millisecond basis. It can be overwhelming.
Of course. Pray brother, it's the only way. Do not act before thought. These times are going to be the biggest test we will ever face. I'm not afraid to die, because death is only temporary if you truly believe in Christ. Much love and peace to you and your family.
Is this a suggestion, or are you just brushing me off?
Thank you, my fren.
Read Jude's Epistle. It's short.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude&version=NIV
https://www.bibleref.com/Jude/1/Jude-1-23.html
What does Jude 1:23 mean?
In this verse, Jude urges his readers to "snatch out of the fire" unbelievers who are perilously close to entering eternal punishment. A key point made in this letter is the danger posed by false teachers. Not only do these men place themselves in danger of eternal punishment (Jude 1:13), they can also disrupt the faith of others (Jude 1:10–12). For those who are not in open rebellion, but are merely confused or suffering from doubt, our response should be that of mercy. We need to seek their redemption, not their condemnation (Jude 1:22).
At the same time, Jude portrays some unbelievers as so contaminated by immorality that this compassion needs to come with sensible caution. It is commendable to reach grossly immoral unbelievers, but it is unacceptable to be drawn into their immorality. Jesus reached out with the message of forgiveness to the most sinful members of society (Mark 2:15–17), but He did not participate in their sin (Hebrews 4:15). Nor did He approve of it (John 8:11).
The sum of it is, there are people who are evil yes. And we should try to save them.
But there are people who are so evil, trying to save them is a danger unto itself. What good is trying to save someone if the only way to meet them half way is to corrupt yourself?
For such people, we must have a stern hand. We must deprive them of what permits their great evil, so they have nothing left to lose and everything to gain from casting off their mantle of evil.
This suggests that ACTION must be taken. In order to "seek" one must ACTIVELY participate in the redemption. Am I off?
Sure, but be aware that they might fight to the death to prevent you from taking that which permits them to sin.
You can't make them save themselves. If you press to hard, they may kill themselves, or you, when confronted with a reality where they can no longer sin.
In such cases, God says to dust your feet off and leave them be.
However, if they force you to accept them then you can't just ignore them.
If you can't ignore them, and you can't convince them, and they are threatening your own salvation, then what is left for you to do? Let them?
They may take your life, but when they try to take your soul, the only option is to fight back, and not play Mr. Nice Guy anymore. They become Satan, which means Adversary.
Universe -> One Verse -> One Word -> The Word
Satan -> Adversary -> Against the Verse -> Against The Word
The ultimate evil is the rationale that the ends justify the means.
If you attempt to save another, but in turn you corrupt your self by participating in their evils, then such a foolish ambition itself is evil.
I hope I'm making sense.
Ultimately, you can't save them all.
My heart and mind are not "settled" on apathy. But I do, most of the time feel the same as you. my fren.
There are different forms of Christianity, but I'm fairly certain this "damnation" bit is only entertained by a minority of them. If you believe that God only creates things that are good, and that he is "Well pleased," then there is no room for Him to make mistakes and condemn those mistakes to eternity. God is Perfect, not fallible.
If I am to believe what is written in the bible (albeit KJV), then there MUST be Heaven, whence Lucifer was cast. Or shall I disregard?
I'm not an expert in Biblical study, but I have always relied on the KJV for over fifty years. There really are no good answers for what/who Satan is, so the only way to consider it is to look for the answers from the other direction, the "God direction." If God created all, and everything created perfect, then there is no hell, or those creatures sent there for eternal damnation. God is Love, not God is whimsical, or God is unpredictable.
I also know that a lot was added in to Christian dogma, as well as some "subtle changes" made to The Bible during the Council of Nicea. The goal of the Council was to create a system whereby its adherents would feel obligated, or otherwise guilty if they didn't, give tithings to an organized Church. Beware of this kind of thing. Some parts of the original Church were an evil abomination of Christianity. Some of that dogma persists today.
I personally believe that there is no such thing as hell other than what we humans make for ourselves in this "mortal dream," if you will. There are lessons to be learned, and only God understands the totality of Creation. I believe references to Satan are allegorical, if anything, since The Bible is a collection of writers, some recording historical detail, some expressing opinion.
Yes, and yes. Fight in the name of the Lord. But vengeance will be His. As much as I'd love to start striking back and taking revenge now, that isn't our place. Our place is to fight and suffer. This is our penence for reliving the mistakes of our forebears.
Please help me understand what you mean by "fight". Please be honest, because I tend to agree with you. However, many Christians that I discuss this with will abhor any sort of action to attack evil.
Okay. I can tell you are going to help me.
With the above verses in mind, what does the Gospel say about DEFENSE against evil that you have recongnized?
In other words, If I shall aspire to be on the right hand, how shall I act/react when perceiving a threat to something/someone that is righteous?
Cardinal Vigano said in his letter to President Trump (from the Q drops) that this is a battle between the Children of Light and Children of Darkness.
and this parable below gives the same message.
so I think there is something bigger going on, and our best 'weapon' is prayer. the 'battle' is in the spirit realm, we tame that, and we won't have violent battles in this world.
---Also interesting that Fauci means 'sickle'....
Matthew 13
36 Then sent Jesus the multitude away, and went into the house. And his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of that field.
37 [g]Then answered he, and said to them, He that soweth the good seed, is the son of man,
38 And the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom, and the tares are the children of that wicked one.
39 And the enemy that soweth them, is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers be the Angels.
40 As then the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his Angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity,
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the just men shine as the sun in the kingdom of their father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Abhor all things Evil
Abhor - To regard with disgust and hatred.
So, to merely think about evil as disgusting is all that is required?
And to spread the Gospel, the idea I believe is to limit the ability of evil to spread. I am not expert by any means, I call out Evil when I see it, and protect and prepare for those I love in the meantime.
Verbal indication of evil, and the purpose is to encourage others to recognize and shame evil as well.
Very interesting, because it sounds like this exact tactic is employed by the demons in our government.
When someone says "He's doing God's work", are they making the claim that said person is unjustly acting on God's behalf?
Now that is an interesting turn on that phrase.
My fren, you can see I'm actually trying to understand. Haha!
Revenge is an act of passion, vengeance is an act of justice. - Samuel Johnson