Many know that Jesus said:
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
However, did you know of all the manuscripts, only the Textus Receptus adds punctuation to the translation, and is absent from such diverse manuscripts as papri, Uncials, Latin texts Itala, Syriac, Coptic, and the Sahidic. It is also not found in either books of Matthew or Mark. It should also be noted that Luke 23:34 is not mentioned in ANY Greek manuscript older than the 5th century. This means it was not in the New Testament for the first 400 hundred years.
The Textus Receptus would has us translating Luke 23:34 as - "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".
You find this in all the bibles, but it is NOT what was actually stated. First of all, it is actually contrary to God's commandments. The law for forgiveness is based on the repentance of sin.
If anything Luke 23:34 should actually read -
“Father, **forgive them not, for they know what they are doing.”.
If we examine, the translation from Textus Receptus we find that it DOES actually translate to this.
Let’s look further, In the Emphatic Diaglott, containing the Original Greek Text of the New Testament (Dr. J.J. Griesbach) based on the interlinearly translation, and on the "The Vatican Manuscript", No. 1209 in the Vatican Library, together with illustrative and explanatory foot notes, and a copious selection of references, and added alphabetical appendix (Benjamin Wilson) states on page 304, that Jesus in Luke 23:34 actually said:
"and Jesus said; O Father, forgive them not for ‘they know' what they do".
We know this to be true because we are told by Isaiah:
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amos saw concerning Judah AND JERUSALEM...
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, BECAUSE THEY BE REPLENISHED FROM THE EAST,..they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures...Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: THEREFORE FORGIVE THEM NOT." (Isaiah 2:1-9).
It is clear that the forgiveness of sin requires repentance. Those who want to destroy us are not asking for repentance. We are at WAR
It is used against us for destroying us. It creates doubt, confusion, and division among us.
I've studied Edgar Cayce for years and years and one of the things he talked about was how they corrupted the Bible. This is an amazing dig and I'm grateful for you sharing it. And as Bye_Reddit said, "It's a good thing that we can find God within,..." because that is exactly what each and every one of us should do.
Oh yes, Edgar Cayce. I am familiar with. I'm put this out there to let people know we don't live a life with Stockholm Syndrome.
U should post this on c/christianity I'm interested to see what they say about it over there
Agreed. My two bits on the topic are here:
https://communities.win/c/GreatAwakening/p/13zgbjnHke/x/c/4JH5Y5I5j4p
Yes, no where in the Bible does it say we should lay down and accept people who are trying to destroy our lives, our families and our own Christian beliefs.
In fact, it tells us to hate evil.
If we have deep staters who repent, turn from their wicked ways, and tell the truth of what they have been a part of, then I can quickly forgive.
But not a moment sooner.
Agreed. You should respond to @otherwisesafe post.
I'm going to hold with the traditional view here. This does not excuse anyone involved with the crucifixion of Jesus, but does leave the path open for what happened in Luke: one of the centurions admitted Jesus was who he claimed to be. Peter both gives a stellar testimony of what happened and to the leaders' and the people's guilt in the matter. They are cut to the heart and ask, what can they do to be saved?
See Acts 2: 22 - 41
I believe that there is enough in the Bible to show God's mind on forgiveness absent the posted verse. In many of the below verses, I don't see any requirement for the offender to do anything to get your love and forgiveness. I don't think that any of it prevents us from stopping evil or protecting others from evil, though. I agree that we are at war.
Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, "I will avenge this evil!" Wait on the LORD, and He will save you.
Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "I will do to him as he has done to me; I will repay the man according to his work."
Matthew 5:40 if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;
Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew 7:2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 18:35 That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Mark 11:25 And when you stand to pray, if you hold anything against another, forgive it, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your trespasses as well."
Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
Colossians 3:13 Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Love Your Enemies (Luke 6:27–36)
38 You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’o 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; 41and if someone forces you to go one mile,p go with him two miles.q 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’r and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,s 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
why is this board so crappy at formatting text
All these verses are in reference to brethren of the House of Israel. There is a big difference between another where "another" is translated from the Greek: "all ēl ōn" (from allos) that means "of the same kind".
99% of the time when someone quotes this particular Scripture, they're quoting it out of context, they don't understand what "allelon" means, and they're ignorant of the fact that Christ came only for the "house of Israel".
Are Luciferians of the House of Israel? Of course not. All of these passages refer to the quarrels between the Israelites and those who worship the same God.
And what of "If someone compels you to walk a mile". Was that not referring to the Roman practice of using the populace as their personal porters? Would that not clearly identify the Roman as being included in the rest of the chapter? Which also contains the following: "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you"
You're misinterpreting and taking enemy out of context.
Love thine Enemy Enemy #2190 echthros – Gr. From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)
But slay them if they don't permit God or Jesus to rule over them:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
And also to make footstools of them:
Matthew 22:44, Mark12:36, 1 Corinthians 15:25, Hebrews 10:13, Acts 2:35
And don't forget that it was our enemies who sowed the tares amongst us:
Matthew 13:25, Matthew 13:28
And don't make them a friend, or YOU will become an enemy--of God:
James 4:4
And don't forget that we were given power over them:
Luke 10:19
And don't consider a fallen brethren Israelite to be one:
2 Thessolinians 3:14-15
Be sure we are saved from them, and that they remember God's everlasting covenant with US:
Luke 1:71-72
Don't forget we have the power to blind them:
Acts 13:10
AND--don't forget that their end is destruction:
Phi 3:18-19
You did not address what I pointed out.
Everyone knows what an enemy is. It included Romans of which you had excluded by saying the verses were only for Israel and God's people.
You miss the forest for the trees, and you are taking and presenting things out of context.
God wants us to love our enemies. And by love, I think He means by how we treat them. I know it's hard, but it is what God wants.
I especially do not like that you quoted James 4:4 because that verse is talking about being like the world and supporting the world in its rebellion against God and committing sin.
Showing love and even compassion for your enemies is no sin. It is commanded by the Lord.
You missed the entire point I just made and don't understand the koine Greek I provided. You're misrepresenting the Scripture.
I have a newsflash for you that will surely blow past you like the wind. You need not understand a single word of Greek to understand the Gospel. Salvation is not reserved only for pseudo-intellectuals.
Thank goodness for people like you. We can just throw away Liddel-Scott, Strong's, and Thayers Concordances. Who needs them? NOT. We can also just throw away that pesky Greek Septuagint that was written in 250 BC. Not that Greek was the world language at the time even in Jesus day matters and that the written ancient Hebrew (not the recreated one in 900 AD) was already a lost to antiquity. Forget about the ancient Septuagint that the Latin Vulgate was transliterated from because we have that English version you speak of. Oh wait, the Early English Translators also used the Latin Vulgate (along with the Masoretic Text 10th Century AD) to come up with the King James Version. Amazing.
Tell me, what is the Septuagint and its meaning? Who created the Septuagint and why? Otherwise Mr. "newsflash", you have no idea what you are talking about.
Good post.
It's a good thing that we can find God within, because I fear the Bible is wrought with many instances of such manipulation.
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion around these parts, but I ask this: if you don't trust a document that was published by the mainstream media today, what makes you think they haven't had their way with the Bible? It's been around for thousands of years, written about events that occurred hundreds of years prior, and then translated countless times. Of course it's been compromised.
I still love Christians though, especially the ones on Great Awakening.
Thanks. We just need to know not to turn the other cheek when our very souls are at stake. Otherwise, the reality is a perpetual Stockholm Syndrome.
I got taken to task for saying this once but you are correct, the food book has been translated by many men who added and subtracted from it at tumes... this does not mean we don't follow the biblical teachings...it simply is stated as a fact.
Blessings fren..
It's definitely a sensitive topic, but I believe God would want us to exercise the critical thinking abilities we have been blessed with - even if it means putting the Bible under a microscope.
The Book contains many good teachings despite the many subtle manipulations, and Christians by and large lead good lives, so I can understand why this is a sore subject.
That said, I believe it has led people to hold questionable beliefs in the realm of forgiveness, the role of love vs hate, and a number of other weighty topics.
Wish you well.
🙏
Great post. Thank you for this. I question everything, including our rewritten Bible.
Great post! Those who think our Lord forgives all are sadly mistaken....his wrath is to be feared. Be humble in the eyes if the Lord. Hell would not have a waiting list to get in if God forgave all...
Blessings