When Christ spoke of the abomination of desolation in Matthew, he’s talking to Jews.
How do we know this? He instructs His listeners to pray that their flight from the abomination not take place on the sabbath. Christians don’t observe the sabbath as Christ is our sabbath per Hebrews.
The church is the bride of Christ. In the Jewish wedding traditions that early Christians would have been familiar with, the bride makes herself ready for the groom to come take her without knowing when he’ll arrive. If this analogy holds, then why would Christ let His church go through the Tribulation, which is tantamount to the groom abusing his bride before the marriage? Why would Christ let His church endure His wrath when He’s already paid for their sin?
Short answer - Tribulation is what man does to Christ's bride, Not the wrath of God. Jesus said Himself that we would see persecution for His name's sake, and Revelation confirms this.
If you would like, I will provide a more detailed answer.
Part of the confusion here is that "tribulation" is used in two different senses. Yes, the church does go through tribulation here on earth, though I try to use persecution instead to avoid confusion. The Tribulation, the contents of Revelation 6-19, is notably different from the kind of persecution that Christ said the church would go through.
Persecution of the church comes exclusively at the hands of other men, the best examples are from the gospels and Acts. Aside from the Antichrist's persecution of those who don't take the Mark, virtually all of the woes/trumpets/bowls/etc. in Revelation come straight from God.
The phrase "wrath of God/the Lamb" is used extensively to refer to the Tribulation, and to my knowledge never to general persecution. This phrase first pops up in Revelation 6:16-17. This is after the sixth seal is opened, and the seals are the first catastrophic events of the Tribulation period. This in my mind refutes the growing theory that only the second half of the Tribulation is the wrath of God.
The difficulty I have with that position is two fold, but voted you up anyway for explaining it clearly.
(1)
Many times people blame God for natural disasters, when we people have not followed God's principles for stewardship of creation. Some of the seals (woes) here can now be accomplished by evil men. Also, when the first plagues hit Egypt, both the Israelites and the Egyptians delt with the consequences of them.
Revelation 11 is the first time we see anyone trustworthy mention the wrath of God: (the 24 Elders) 15 - 18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; **and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.>
and the harvest of souls occurs afterward,
Rev, 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, (Hint! and a big one!) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Yeah and they give it exactly. 3.5 years in after the the abomination the sun and moon are darkened the dead in Christ rise and all who are alive and remain are caught up (transformed in the blink of an eye). It’s always the same. Then a period of about 75 days takes place. If not for Christ shortening those days then no flesh would be saved. It is appointed once for man to die!
Acts 2:20 mentions the sun going dark and the moon turning to blood before the Day of the Lord, but that is not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes back at the end of the Tribulation, which logically requires the Rapture to happen first. References in the gospels and Revelation to the sun going dark place it during the Tribulation, and don’t give a direct time frame between this event and the Rapture. They don’t even definitely say that the Sun going dark comes first. Of course in my view the Rapture happens first; a full list of arguments can be found in the links that I provided earlier.
I also still can’t find your 75 days. Daniel 12:11-12 gives the closest number, but it’s still not 75. It gives 1,290 days between the Abomination being set up and the Temple being cleanses, then says that those who make it to 1,335 days after the Abomination are blessed. I’m my view the 1,335 day is the Day of the Lord, when AntiChrist is defeated and the Millennial Kingdom is established. It’s still a difference of 45 days, not 75. And since Daniel uses days instead of years or months in its calculations, these numbers don’t change depending on what calendar you use.
75 comes from the fact that they did not use an American calendar in those days. It’s all in revelation and Daniel. Plain as day. Chronological order. And confirmed in many other scriptures that the timeline is flawless. It is exact every time. Sun and moon first! Pay attention when reading in context. Don’t take pastor bobs word for it. It blew my mind when I realized it. It’s what originally woke me up. Use a Jewish calander and add up the days mentioned and you will see exactly to the week what will take place. It’s not distorted by a people, it is distorted by false teachers who lack study. I am not claiming you to be this I am just saying, I once was lost and now I am found. Was blind but now I see. I studied for myself and took all preconceived notions and traditions out. I found out that the old fundamentalist have it right. The old fire and brimstone preachers were right up until the corporate mega seminaries too over in the 16-1700’s. It’s always been about control. It is the enemies forte. You control people by telling them they can do whatever they want and if they will just repeat a little prayer all their dreams will come true. It is another gospel!
The old fundamentalists generally subscribed to the pre tribulation pre millennial position. Including some of the oldest church fathers like Iraneus.
Mid Trib, post Trib, a millennial, and post millenial are all positions invented later and/or adopted by denominations with other doctrinal problems (Catholics, Anglicans, LDS, etc).
In either case, none of the alternate views of eschatology constitute another gospel in and of themselves. A post Tribulation a millennial can preach the gospel just as accurately as a premillennial pre Trib preacher. Salvation is still by grace through faith in Jesus Christ no matter how future events shake out.
Oh here we go with Matthew preaching to Jews. Yes Matthew was written to Jew, but this book was written to Christian converts. When Christ instructs John to write to the churches in revelation he speaks of those he saw at the alter crying how long until God avenges their blood on earth. The angel tells them to wait until the rest of the martyrs are killed. Why would Christ say the sun and moon should be darkened first? Only for the Jews? He came to his own and they received it not. The same is repeated over and over that we would see the abomination. It is in the Old Testament as well as the new. This timeline never changes. It is the same in all the books mentioned. You are to overcome the flesh. Not expect God to save your flesh. It is spiritual. When you are changed in the blink of an eye then you will see. When the veil of flesh is lifted and you realize that we were created from the earth and will remain with the earth in the flesh. It is appointed once for man to die after this is the judgment. We will die. We have to. If I use your logic then why has Christ allowed the persecution of his church ( Bride) as long as he has already? Because the martyrs are waiting on the rest of us. They are asleep waiting for Christ to raise them from the dead. Then those who are alive and remain are transformed in the blink of an eye. Once the antichrist declares all who hold the testimony of Christ to be put to death it is said that if Christ dosnt shorten those days then no flesh would be saved. This is in a time span of about 75 days after the abomination. The Jews who have claimed him as the messiah will realize they were wrong. War is waged at that point on Jews and Christian’s because it is at that point they realize that Jesus was their messiah and because of the two witnesses many will get saved. But it’s about 75 days until Christ and the saints following him unleash hell on earth as they pour out The Wrath of God on all who took the mark and worshiped the beasts image. Jewish calendar and parallel scripture confirms this timeline over 20 biblically. Christ told us they would kill is because they hate him!
I didn't say the whole book of Matthew was only for Jews, I said that in that specific conversation in Matthew 24 Christ is speaking to a Jewish audience, which we know because He mentions the observation of the sabbath.
Revelation doesn't mention the martyrs until chapter 6, which is after the Tribulation starts. Furthermore it doesn't specify when those martyrs were killed. Lastly, many Israelites during the Tribulation will be saved only to be persecuted and martyred by the Antichrist. None of this conclusively indicates that the church goes through the Tribulation.
I also don't see where Christ says that the sun and the moon must be darkened before the abomination. Could you provide a reference?
"He came unto His own and His own received Him not" has already been fulfilled, hence why the phrase is in the past tense. No relevance to end times prophecy.
You are to overcome the flesh. Not expect God to save your flesh.
You are conflating the metaphorical meaning of "flesh" referring to our sin nature with the literal meaning of God saving us from His Wrath.
If I use your logic then why has Christ allowed the persecution of his church ( Bride) as long as he has already?
Because the persecution that the church has encountered thus far is not the Wrath of God. Only the Tribulation gets that moniker.
This is in a time span of about 75 days after the abomination.
According to Daniel 12:12 there is going to be approximately three and a half years from the time the abomination is set up to the time it is abolished. Not sure where you're getting 75 from.
The two witnesses start their ministry toward the beginning of the Tribulation, being executed and resurrected shortly before or right as the abomination is set up, which is the halfway point of the 7 year Tribulation. You are correct that many, Jew and Gentile alike, will still have the opportunity to get saved.
Tribulation is sometimes used in scripture to refer to general persecution, but in modern vernacular the word tribulation is almost always associated with the 7 year period dominated by the Antichrist. Furthermore the Bible itself makes a distinction between general persecution and the Tribulation. Revelation says that this period will be worse than any other period or any other type of persecution in history, and as you have rightly pointed out, it will be so bad that if allowed to continue it would wipe out all life on earth.
When I remember to do so I’ll capitalize Tribulation to refer to the 7 years before the Day of the Lord, and persecution to refer to, well, the persecution that Christians encounter during the church age. That should eliminate any confusion.
When Christ spoke of the abomination of desolation in Matthew, he’s talking to Jews.
How do we know this? He instructs His listeners to pray that their flight from the abomination not take place on the sabbath. Christians don’t observe the sabbath as Christ is our sabbath per Hebrews.
The church is the bride of Christ. In the Jewish wedding traditions that early Christians would have been familiar with, the bride makes herself ready for the groom to come take her without knowing when he’ll arrive. If this analogy holds, then why would Christ let His church go through the Tribulation, which is tantamount to the groom abusing his bride before the marriage? Why would Christ let His church endure His wrath when He’s already paid for their sin?
Short answer - Tribulation is what man does to Christ's bride, Not the wrath of God. Jesus said Himself that we would see persecution for His name's sake, and Revelation confirms this.
If you would like, I will provide a more detailed answer.
Part of the confusion here is that "tribulation" is used in two different senses. Yes, the church does go through tribulation here on earth, though I try to use persecution instead to avoid confusion. The Tribulation, the contents of Revelation 6-19, is notably different from the kind of persecution that Christ said the church would go through.
The difficulty I have with that position is two fold, but voted you up anyway for explaining it clearly.
(1) Many times people blame God for natural disasters, when we people have not followed God's principles for stewardship of creation. Some of the seals (woes) here can now be accomplished by evil men. Also, when the first plagues hit Egypt, both the Israelites and the Egyptians delt with the consequences of them.
Revelation 11 is the first time we see anyone trustworthy mention the wrath of God: (the 24 Elders) 15 - 18
and the harvest of souls occurs afterward,
Rev, 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, (Hint! and a big one!) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Also in revelation he was speaking to gentiles when he spoke of the abomination. So there’s that.
While Revelation uses the word "abomination", the book does not directly reference the abomination of desolation.
Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and other prophetic books have to be taken together to construct the Tribulation timeline.
Yeah and they give it exactly. 3.5 years in after the the abomination the sun and moon are darkened the dead in Christ rise and all who are alive and remain are caught up (transformed in the blink of an eye). It’s always the same. Then a period of about 75 days takes place. If not for Christ shortening those days then no flesh would be saved. It is appointed once for man to die!
Acts 2:20 mentions the sun going dark and the moon turning to blood before the Day of the Lord, but that is not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is when Christ comes back at the end of the Tribulation, which logically requires the Rapture to happen first. References in the gospels and Revelation to the sun going dark place it during the Tribulation, and don’t give a direct time frame between this event and the Rapture. They don’t even definitely say that the Sun going dark comes first. Of course in my view the Rapture happens first; a full list of arguments can be found in the links that I provided earlier.
I also still can’t find your 75 days. Daniel 12:11-12 gives the closest number, but it’s still not 75. It gives 1,290 days between the Abomination being set up and the Temple being cleanses, then says that those who make it to 1,335 days after the Abomination are blessed. I’m my view the 1,335 day is the Day of the Lord, when AntiChrist is defeated and the Millennial Kingdom is established. It’s still a difference of 45 days, not 75. And since Daniel uses days instead of years or months in its calculations, these numbers don’t change depending on what calendar you use.
75 comes from the fact that they did not use an American calendar in those days. It’s all in revelation and Daniel. Plain as day. Chronological order. And confirmed in many other scriptures that the timeline is flawless. It is exact every time. Sun and moon first! Pay attention when reading in context. Don’t take pastor bobs word for it. It blew my mind when I realized it. It’s what originally woke me up. Use a Jewish calander and add up the days mentioned and you will see exactly to the week what will take place. It’s not distorted by a people, it is distorted by false teachers who lack study. I am not claiming you to be this I am just saying, I once was lost and now I am found. Was blind but now I see. I studied for myself and took all preconceived notions and traditions out. I found out that the old fundamentalist have it right. The old fire and brimstone preachers were right up until the corporate mega seminaries too over in the 16-1700’s. It’s always been about control. It is the enemies forte. You control people by telling them they can do whatever they want and if they will just repeat a little prayer all their dreams will come true. It is another gospel!
The old fundamentalists generally subscribed to the pre tribulation pre millennial position. Including some of the oldest church fathers like Iraneus.
Mid Trib, post Trib, a millennial, and post millenial are all positions invented later and/or adopted by denominations with other doctrinal problems (Catholics, Anglicans, LDS, etc).
In either case, none of the alternate views of eschatology constitute another gospel in and of themselves. A post Tribulation a millennial can preach the gospel just as accurately as a premillennial pre Trib preacher. Salvation is still by grace through faith in Jesus Christ no matter how future events shake out.
Oh here we go with Matthew preaching to Jews. Yes Matthew was written to Jew, but this book was written to Christian converts. When Christ instructs John to write to the churches in revelation he speaks of those he saw at the alter crying how long until God avenges their blood on earth. The angel tells them to wait until the rest of the martyrs are killed. Why would Christ say the sun and moon should be darkened first? Only for the Jews? He came to his own and they received it not. The same is repeated over and over that we would see the abomination. It is in the Old Testament as well as the new. This timeline never changes. It is the same in all the books mentioned. You are to overcome the flesh. Not expect God to save your flesh. It is spiritual. When you are changed in the blink of an eye then you will see. When the veil of flesh is lifted and you realize that we were created from the earth and will remain with the earth in the flesh. It is appointed once for man to die after this is the judgment. We will die. We have to. If I use your logic then why has Christ allowed the persecution of his church ( Bride) as long as he has already? Because the martyrs are waiting on the rest of us. They are asleep waiting for Christ to raise them from the dead. Then those who are alive and remain are transformed in the blink of an eye. Once the antichrist declares all who hold the testimony of Christ to be put to death it is said that if Christ dosnt shorten those days then no flesh would be saved. This is in a time span of about 75 days after the abomination. The Jews who have claimed him as the messiah will realize they were wrong. War is waged at that point on Jews and Christian’s because it is at that point they realize that Jesus was their messiah and because of the two witnesses many will get saved. But it’s about 75 days until Christ and the saints following him unleash hell on earth as they pour out The Wrath of God on all who took the mark and worshiped the beasts image. Jewish calendar and parallel scripture confirms this timeline over 20 biblically. Christ told us they would kill is because they hate him!
I didn't say the whole book of Matthew was only for Jews, I said that in that specific conversation in Matthew 24 Christ is speaking to a Jewish audience, which we know because He mentions the observation of the sabbath.
Revelation doesn't mention the martyrs until chapter 6, which is after the Tribulation starts. Furthermore it doesn't specify when those martyrs were killed. Lastly, many Israelites during the Tribulation will be saved only to be persecuted and martyred by the Antichrist. None of this conclusively indicates that the church goes through the Tribulation.
I also don't see where Christ says that the sun and the moon must be darkened before the abomination. Could you provide a reference?
"He came unto His own and His own received Him not" has already been fulfilled, hence why the phrase is in the past tense. No relevance to end times prophecy.
You are conflating the metaphorical meaning of "flesh" referring to our sin nature with the literal meaning of God saving us from His Wrath.
Because the persecution that the church has encountered thus far is not the Wrath of God. Only the Tribulation gets that moniker.
According to Daniel 12:12 there is going to be approximately three and a half years from the time the abomination is set up to the time it is abolished. Not sure where you're getting 75 from.
The two witnesses start their ministry toward the beginning of the Tribulation, being executed and resurrected shortly before or right as the abomination is set up, which is the halfway point of the 7 year Tribulation. You are correct that many, Jew and Gentile alike, will still have the opportunity to get saved.
Tribulation is another word for persecution not wrath.
Tribulation is sometimes used in scripture to refer to general persecution, but in modern vernacular the word tribulation is almost always associated with the 7 year period dominated by the Antichrist. Furthermore the Bible itself makes a distinction between general persecution and the Tribulation. Revelation says that this period will be worse than any other period or any other type of persecution in history, and as you have rightly pointed out, it will be so bad that if allowed to continue it would wipe out all life on earth.
When I remember to do so I’ll capitalize Tribulation to refer to the 7 years before the Day of the Lord, and persecution to refer to, well, the persecution that Christians encounter during the church age. That should eliminate any confusion.
Ci Scofeild reference Bible! That’s where that teaching came from.