so how do you think the Catholic church misinterpreted 'on this rock?'
Occam's razor suggests Peter was in fact the rock, since Peter means rock.
I don't believe Catholics practice idolatry or ritual magic. Its all based on faith in God.
Of course that's not a defense of the official catholic church in recent years, which has become as infiltrated as any other public organization. all denominations of Christianity have been targeted for infiltration. ...and have always talked shit about each other anyways. i'm not sold yet.
Because "on this rock" is referring to the faith of Peter. Jesus called Peter ("rock"), because of his faith. The Christian church (fellowship of all Christians) is based on Jesus, not Peter or any other man. How does it magnify Christ to have the Catholic church include so many rituals and works? Does praying to Mary in Heaven glorify God? The Catholic church only allowed people to actually read the Bible very recently. It is so utterly clear, if you read through the Bible, that the Catholic church is so wrong on so many things. U.S. Treasury agents don't learn what counterfeit currency looks like. They only study real U.S. currency so that it is ingrained in their minds so indelibly that they IMMEDIATELY recognize when they are handling counterfeit bills. If you become familiar with the Bible enough, you IMMEDIATELY recognize false teaching, whether by the Catholic church, or any Protestant denomination or church. If you are a Christian, I encourage you to read through the entire Bible, and then see if what I am saying is not true. If you are not a Christian, the Bible may not make too much sense, so reading through the New Testament is a good start, but until you accept Jesus as your Savior, even reading the New Testament may not make sense. With Christianity, first you believe, then you see.
Latin was the language of European scholarship until the 1800s. Anyone who could read knew Latin. If the RCC didn't want people reading the Bible they wouldn't have translated it into the language everyone on the whole continent spoke in the first place.
And how many people could read latin? Seriously, it wasn't until the 20th century that Catholics were allowed to read a Bible printed in their language, correct?
I can see where you're coming from, I just don't think the Catholic position is any less valid than your own. Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
to me it seems like the depth of symbolism in the Catholic church is indicative of the depth of symbolism in the Bible. Simple and complex are not mutually exclusive terms.
and hey, i've even resisted mentioning the whole 'faith without works' thing. in which i usually favour faith as well, but certainly not at the prohibition of 'works'.
Whenever i hear stuff against the Catholic church, its either from reeeing atheists, or the kind of people who think having a painting or poster on your wall or a wooden bracelet is idolatry. all of whom are entitled to their opinions...
but the only ones I find credible are those who point out that the pope is a pedophile and the church has been infiltrated. because that's not ridiculous.
the rest is just more of the same theological debate that's been going on since forever. honestly, I think that debate should be discouraged on GAW. this is not the place to gatekeep Christianity and push your own brand.
The Catholic obsession with Mary is just not supported by Biblical text. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had siblings, so Mary did not remain a virgin! I'm not aware of any Bible verse where praying to Mary, or anyone else besides Jesus/God is done, or referred to. God is so far above human existence, that it is insulting to God to pray to anyone other than God.
Clearly others have interpreted Biblical text differently than yourself. My beliefs don't have to make sense to you if they make sense to me. I don't think its a stretch to consider Mary worthy of prayer if she was worthy of bearing God's son. If you don't understand how that's relevant, then just stick to God. Simple as.
Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Catholics often pray to statues, so they removed the second commandment from their version of the Ten Commandments, and split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments about covetousness, hoping nobody would notice.
This worked well when the scriptures were hidden behind ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and nobody could read. Not so much anymore.
Luke 8:19-20
19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them,My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
You're right about works though. Works don't save you, but if you truly believe in Christ, works are evidence of the changes happening within. You write the commandments on your heart and live by the spirit, and not just the letter of the law.
John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And when we inevitably stumble?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I can see how there could be disagreements, but I can't come to the same conclusions that you have. and I really don't see any value in trying to emphasize differences between Christians on this platform. I know we have atheists and Jews here, and I'd be willing to bet we have a handful of Muslims and witches as well. Can we just appreciate the people that speak up against evil, such as Vigano?
Jesus also told Simon Peter to "Get behind me, Satan," in that very same chapter of Matthew, when Peter suggested they shouldn't allow Jesus' sacrifice to manifest.
Christ restored our ability to have a right relationship with God. Our failings in that were the only reason the Israelites set up a monarchy in the first place. To believe that God needs an earthly monarchy in order to organize His Kingdom would be to say that God is incapable of reaching us personally.
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
Yeshua (AKA Jesus), the master of parables, is comparing the pebble Cephas to Himself. the chief corner stone.
Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
The rock is Jesus, not Peter. Paul agrees -
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
And so does Peter!
1 Peter 2:1-10
2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
All you've said here is that Christ is the cornerstone, which nobody disagreed with in the first place. Peter's name is not an accident. and personally i'm not seeing anything that incriminates Catholics.
so how do you think the Catholic church misinterpreted 'on this rock?'
Occam's razor suggests Peter was in fact the rock, since Peter means rock.
I don't believe Catholics practice idolatry or ritual magic. Its all based on faith in God.
Of course that's not a defense of the official catholic church in recent years, which has become as infiltrated as any other public organization. all denominations of Christianity have been targeted for infiltration. ...and have always talked shit about each other anyways. i'm not sold yet.
Because "on this rock" is referring to the faith of Peter. Jesus called Peter ("rock"), because of his faith. The Christian church (fellowship of all Christians) is based on Jesus, not Peter or any other man. How does it magnify Christ to have the Catholic church include so many rituals and works? Does praying to Mary in Heaven glorify God? The Catholic church only allowed people to actually read the Bible very recently. It is so utterly clear, if you read through the Bible, that the Catholic church is so wrong on so many things. U.S. Treasury agents don't learn what counterfeit currency looks like. They only study real U.S. currency so that it is ingrained in their minds so indelibly that they IMMEDIATELY recognize when they are handling counterfeit bills. If you become familiar with the Bible enough, you IMMEDIATELY recognize false teaching, whether by the Catholic church, or any Protestant denomination or church. If you are a Christian, I encourage you to read through the entire Bible, and then see if what I am saying is not true. If you are not a Christian, the Bible may not make too much sense, so reading through the New Testament is a good start, but until you accept Jesus as your Savior, even reading the New Testament may not make sense. With Christianity, first you believe, then you see.
"The Catholic church only allowed people to actually read the Bible very recently."
That is just a straight up lie.
The first book EVER printed was a Latin Bible.
And nobody but the priests could read Latin...
Latin was the language of European scholarship until the 1800s. Anyone who could read knew Latin. If the RCC didn't want people reading the Bible they wouldn't have translated it into the language everyone on the whole continent spoke in the first place.
And how many people could read latin? Seriously, it wasn't until the 20th century that Catholics were allowed to read a Bible printed in their language, correct?
20th century? LOL
Douay Rheims was 1582 homeboy.
BEFORE the King James
I can see where you're coming from, I just don't think the Catholic position is any less valid than your own. Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
to me it seems like the depth of symbolism in the Catholic church is indicative of the depth of symbolism in the Bible. Simple and complex are not mutually exclusive terms.
and hey, i've even resisted mentioning the whole 'faith without works' thing. in which i usually favour faith as well, but certainly not at the prohibition of 'works'.
Whenever i hear stuff against the Catholic church, its either from reeeing atheists, or the kind of people who think having a painting or poster on your wall or a wooden bracelet is idolatry. all of whom are entitled to their opinions...
but the only ones I find credible are those who point out that the pope is a pedophile and the church has been infiltrated. because that's not ridiculous.
the rest is just more of the same theological debate that's been going on since forever. honestly, I think that debate should be discouraged on GAW. this is not the place to gatekeep Christianity and push your own brand.
The Catholic obsession with Mary is just not supported by Biblical text. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had siblings, so Mary did not remain a virgin! I'm not aware of any Bible verse where praying to Mary, or anyone else besides Jesus/God is done, or referred to. God is so far above human existence, that it is insulting to God to pray to anyone other than God.
Clearly others have interpreted Biblical text differently than yourself. My beliefs don't have to make sense to you if they make sense to me. I don't think its a stretch to consider Mary worthy of prayer if she was worthy of bearing God's son. If you don't understand how that's relevant, then just stick to God. Simple as.
Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Catholics often pray to statues, so they removed the second commandment from their version of the Ten Commandments, and split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments about covetousness, hoping nobody would notice.
This worked well when the scriptures were hidden behind ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and nobody could read. Not so much anymore.
Luke 8:19-20
19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
You're right about works though. Works don't save you, but if you truly believe in Christ, works are evidence of the changes happening within. You write the commandments on your heart and live by the spirit, and not just the letter of the law.
John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And when we inevitably stumble?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Catholics DON'T "pray to statues"! So tired of this ignorant and false statement.
I can see how there could be disagreements, but I can't come to the same conclusions that you have. and I really don't see any value in trying to emphasize differences between Christians on this platform. I know we have atheists and Jews here, and I'd be willing to bet we have a handful of Muslims and witches as well. Can we just appreciate the people that speak up against evil, such as Vigano?
Jesus also told Simon Peter to "Get behind me, Satan," in that very same chapter of Matthew, when Peter suggested they shouldn't allow Jesus' sacrifice to manifest.
Christ restored our ability to have a right relationship with God. Our failings in that were the only reason the Israelites set up a monarchy in the first place. To believe that God needs an earthly monarchy in order to organize His Kingdom would be to say that God is incapable of reaching us personally.
Peter, or Cephas here, means pebble.
Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
Yeshua (AKA Jesus), the master of parables, is comparing the pebble Cephas to Himself. the chief corner stone.
Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
The rock is Jesus, not Peter. Paul agrees -
Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
And so does Peter!
1 Peter 2:1-10
2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
All you've said here is that Christ is the cornerstone, which nobody disagreed with in the first place. Peter's name is not an accident. and personally i'm not seeing anything that incriminates Catholics.
The corner stone is the rock on which the church is built, not the pebble.
what exactly is the relevance of this seemingly obvious statement?