One problem is that Wierwille hand-picked Craig Martindale as successor president, whose sexual victimization, corruption, and breach of contract against Frances Allen were found to be viable claims in court in 2000 and settled privately.
The group itself, The Way International, may be coming along in its theology but this is a flashing red warning siren that pursuit of truth is not the only thing going on. Same sex problems happened to WCG but it reformed and renamed itself (GCI) faster than TWI has come along.
The truth is that there's certainly an improvement in the heavenly state when Christ returns, but there is also a heavenly state right now known as Paradise and Abraham's bosom as others point out. I understand TWI agrees with Eccl. 12:7 that the spirit returns to God, but for it to speculate further against its consciousness requires grappling with the other passages.
Churchgoers who don't look into it get confused with the instant-gratification message that death automatically means "the highest heaven". Because I believe it's heavenly in its experience, it's not wrong to call it "heaven", but because there is a greater heaven to come it's more accurate to call it an intermediate state and the presence of Christ, as Ligonier rightly points out (the second quote above looks like someone else). But when they see the Bible using more moderate language than they've been "sold", they often overcompensate and deny all consciousness instead of admitting it's a different kind of consciousness than we are familiar with.
But people who go a fully unconscious soul-sleep route, under any name, have a whole lot of verses to deal with, like Paul's desire to be with Christ, that are not easily parried and that are not persuasive in the Greek workarounds that have been proposed for them.
When we die we are no longer constrained by our understanding of time so whether we go to heaven immediately or wait for judgment day it likely doesn’t matter and will feel the same. I don’t know anything but I imagine our perception will be we are immediately with Jesus.
Agree, for rhe dead their next moment if consciousness will be the return even if it takes another 1000 years. Say there is no remembrance from the grave.
If you can find one a book called "are the dead alive now" by a guy named Victor Paul weirwille explains it from the bible very well.
The righteous do go right to Paradise and Jesus's presence, and the wicked do go right to torment in the lower Unseen. But there are greater heavens and hells to come, and so we should not get sidetracked by any slight inaccuracies in the sales pitches that focus validly on the heavenly and hellish aspects of the spirit departing the body. There are many Scriptures indicating that time and change still govern, such as the fruit of the Tree of Life being new every month.
If you go by what Jesus teaches (according to th Gospels) as opposed to all the later teachings, Jesus simply says that there is a Kingdom in Heaven which is the only thing worthwhile, and this Kingdom of earth is nothing. He says that very few people can make it to the Kingdom of heaven.
In my reading of the Gospels I did not come across any specifics of what happens when we die or where do we wait or whether we go to Heaven directly etc. Simply that some of us will be able to go to the Kingdom of Heaven at a future point, thats. all.
Not here to argue. This is from reading and studying the Bible. Discern for yourselves.
When we die our soul goes to heaven (because we are saved, born again)to sit at the right hand of God with Jesus, until we are taken up. Our body(corrupt) goes back to the earth, Waiting for our new bodies (incorruptible)bodies to be resurrected,
There are more scripture but this is a good start.. Praise King Jesus! Amen!
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51-55
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
You will find out in the not so distant future. That is the good story.
The bad side is, what if nothing is as you were told by the books: No Jesus there or God to await you. Not even Luzifer awaiting you in hell. You might spend years or decades, before you even realize that you are dead.
Or you get tricked in to follow your ancestors, that await you , into the light, just to find out for a second, that is was a trick to force you into another reincarnation.
So if you have no plan before you die, your cards are at odd. I have a plan:
The evidence for the resurrection is sound, you should look into it. And when something in your life seems unsolvable or too difficult, call on Jesus in faith, and he sees your heart and will help in the best way possible. Praying for you
Spirit Soul ( psyche ) and body ! I believe the mind , where the devil try’s to play with is our soul , psyche ! We have a spirit we live in a body ! The soul is actually our mind , psyche realm ! So our mind is not going to heaven our spirit is and our glorified body will come after the coming of Christ ! This is what I’ve always believed, and I believe many Bible scholars teach this . but hey I could be wrong
And who knows if the Bible gets interpreted to fit a certain narrative. Does God want his people living in fear, remorse or in the power, glory and joy of his son’s forgiveness and victory.
I have a question....If you go to heaven, do you believe you're just going to be on your knees praying to God all day for eternity? 🤔 I don't think many have thought this through... I'm just curious - no judgement.
I believe that Jesus has already returned after AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed. They had the terrible tribulation (under Nero), they had the desolation of abominations, the faithful ran for the hills and Jesus returned at some point after that to destroy the Roman empire and set up his Kingdom for a millennial reign of 1000 years with the Saints who were resurrected to reign with Him. Now we are in Rev 20:7, where Satan has been released for a short season to deceive the nations. And oh are we deceived!
Bible says when Christ returns the dead in Christ shall be raised. You can't be raised if you are already running around up there. It's pretty clear.
One problem is that Wierwille hand-picked Craig Martindale as successor president, whose sexual victimization, corruption, and breach of contract against Frances Allen were found to be viable claims in court in 2000 and settled privately.
The group itself, The Way International, may be coming along in its theology but this is a flashing red warning siren that pursuit of truth is not the only thing going on. Same sex problems happened to WCG but it reformed and renamed itself (GCI) faster than TWI has come along.
The truth is that there's certainly an improvement in the heavenly state when Christ returns, but there is also a heavenly state right now known as Paradise and Abraham's bosom as others point out. I understand TWI agrees with Eccl. 12:7 that the spirit returns to God, but for it to speculate further against its consciousness requires grappling with the other passages.
Churchgoers who don't look into it get confused with the instant-gratification message that death automatically means "the highest heaven". Because I believe it's heavenly in its experience, it's not wrong to call it "heaven", but because there is a greater heaven to come it's more accurate to call it an intermediate state and the presence of Christ, as Ligonier rightly points out (the second quote above looks like someone else). But when they see the Bible using more moderate language than they've been "sold", they often overcompensate and deny all consciousness instead of admitting it's a different kind of consciousness than we are familiar with.
But people who go a fully unconscious soul-sleep route, under any name, have a whole lot of verses to deal with, like Paul's desire to be with Christ, that are not easily parried and that are not persuasive in the Greek workarounds that have been proposed for them.
You and u/Kensethfan2 might prefer to expound at u/TheWayInternational, which I set up to be more friendly to such discussion.
When we die we are no longer constrained by our understanding of time so whether we go to heaven immediately or wait for judgment day it likely doesn’t matter and will feel the same. I don’t know anything but I imagine our perception will be we are immediately with Jesus.
Agree, for rhe dead their next moment if consciousness will be the return even if it takes another 1000 years. Say there is no remembrance from the grave.
If you can find one a book called "are the dead alive now" by a guy named Victor Paul weirwille explains it from the bible very well.
I have that book. He explains the scriptures quite clearly and thoroughly. An excellent read for clarification.
The righteous do go right to Paradise and Jesus's presence, and the wicked do go right to torment in the lower Unseen. But there are greater heavens and hells to come, and so we should not get sidetracked by any slight inaccuracies in the sales pitches that focus validly on the heavenly and hellish aspects of the spirit departing the body. There are many Scriptures indicating that time and change still govern, such as the fruit of the Tree of Life being new every month.
If you go by what Jesus teaches (according to th Gospels) as opposed to all the later teachings, Jesus simply says that there is a Kingdom in Heaven which is the only thing worthwhile, and this Kingdom of earth is nothing. He says that very few people can make it to the Kingdom of heaven.
In my reading of the Gospels I did not come across any specifics of what happens when we die or where do we wait or whether we go to Heaven directly etc. Simply that some of us will be able to go to the Kingdom of Heaven at a future point, thats. all.
Jesus told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise."
Not here to argue. This is from reading and studying the Bible. Discern for yourselves.
When we die our soul goes to heaven (because we are saved, born again)to sit at the right hand of God with Jesus, until we are taken up. Our body(corrupt) goes back to the earth, Waiting for our new bodies (incorruptible)bodies to be resurrected, There are more scripture but this is a good start.. Praise King Jesus! Amen! 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51-55 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
You will find out in the not so distant future. That is the good story.
The bad side is, what if nothing is as you were told by the books: No Jesus there or God to await you. Not even Luzifer awaiting you in hell. You might spend years or decades, before you even realize that you are dead. Or you get tricked in to follow your ancestors, that await you , into the light, just to find out for a second, that is was a trick to force you into another reincarnation.
So if you have no plan before you die, your cards are at odd. I have a plan:
The evidence for the resurrection is sound, you should look into it. And when something in your life seems unsolvable or too difficult, call on Jesus in faith, and he sees your heart and will help in the best way possible. Praying for you
Spirit Soul ( psyche ) and body ! I believe the mind , where the devil try’s to play with is our soul , psyche ! We have a spirit we live in a body ! The soul is actually our mind , psyche realm ! So our mind is not going to heaven our spirit is and our glorified body will come after the coming of Christ ! This is what I’ve always believed, and I believe many Bible scholars teach this . but hey I could be wrong
I like 1 Corinthians 15, 2 Corinthians 5 : 1-10 and 1 Thessalonians 4 : 13-18
The parable of Rich Man and Beggar gives you the answer! Luke 16: 19-31
And who knows if the Bible gets interpreted to fit a certain narrative. Does God want his people living in fear, remorse or in the power, glory and joy of his son’s forgiveness and victory.
I don't think anyone actually goes anywhere...
Luke 17:21
I have a question....If you go to heaven, do you believe you're just going to be on your knees praying to God all day for eternity? 🤔 I don't think many have thought this through... I'm just curious - no judgement.
I see heaven as a new Eden. We will work, we will socialize, we will be with our God.
Thanks for replying. I'm surprised more haven't... unless I shattered their illusion or something. Who knows...
Its at judgment times when Jesus returns. The bible says the dead in Christ will rise first and then the living in Christ.
Yeah I know some people like to say when one of the bad ones die at least hes in hell now but he really isnt not yet.
I believe that Jesus has already returned after AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed. They had the terrible tribulation (under Nero), they had the desolation of abominations, the faithful ran for the hills and Jesus returned at some point after that to destroy the Roman empire and set up his Kingdom for a millennial reign of 1000 years with the Saints who were resurrected to reign with Him. Now we are in Rev 20:7, where Satan has been released for a short season to deceive the nations. And oh are we deceived!