Please recommend to me books, thorough articles, or shows that explore this subject. There is so much out there promoting nonviolence, but Incant find good arguments exploring the case for violence. Any direction is appreciated.
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Violent resistance will only give [them] a reason to violently clamp down.
I wouldn’t do it.
More Prayer Warriors is what is needed.
Q asked us over 67 times to pray.
I didn’t once see Q ask for violent resistance.
Pray, like your life depended on it…because it does.
BINGO!!! Well said friend. God bless u.
If anyone tried to put me or anyone in my family into an internment camp, that is my line.
We shouldn't put lines on Gods will. Just keep your focus on Jesus and he will carry u thru it all.
That will work really well when they're being lined up on their knees without ever fighting back.
Rather go out on my knee with Jesus than standing in ego alone
I pray all the time, but I also pray my aim is true when it needs to be.
It will always be true if its backed by God so wouldnt praying to know WHEN is right make more sense Pray for discernment then u know every action u make will be Gods will and perfect
I already prayed when the right time would be, that's my line in the sand.
Ok keep praying on it though please.
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Remember who and what we are dealing with.
It's 3 sets of parenthesis, (((them))).
I thought [this] was the kill box.
Deep state…[they] …soon to be executed for crimes against humanity.
The kill box is one set of brackets. 3 sets of parenthesis is the long-nose tribe.
We shouldn't ever promote violence. Yes God does often lead his people to victory thru war. Remember this war is not against man. This is a spirtual battle. No violence will win this one. This one is about surrender to Jesus. Let him lead us. Promote him!! Then...only then.. will we no longer need to ever be violent again because Christ will reign as the true KING
Peter lobbed the ear off a guard. Jesus healed it. Jesus did not condemn Peter per se, but he let him know (as he had many times before), this is why I came. Many apostles were imprisoned/tormented/tortured because of the Word they walked in, and THE WORD they spoke. They did not respond in kind. We are to turn the other cheek in those instances-because the battle is spiritual and the Battle is the Lord's. Many times God has used those in prison to preach the Gospel to others held captive, to do good works and to help heal the broken hearted.
God abhors violence, lying in wait, malice, and hatred. Those are all characteristics of satan and his children
We are to love our enemies and do good to those that hate us. This is not a passive action. We don't respond in kind. God is helping us to mature in our thinking and actions and showing us how things should be.
On the other hand, self protection, protection of your property, and family, is a necessary thing and it is part of caring for your family. There is no malice in protecting yourself or your family from attack.
Sometimes wars were necessary as you will find in the Bible. But,many wars have been started for nefarious purposes-even now. God warned us this would happen if we had an earthly "king".
It's all about timing and circumstances, and the state of your emotions and your thinking. Christians are NOT weak. This world has to change and only a love and a WORD that breaks bonds and sets captives free will change it.
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This might help: “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That's a powerful quote.
I don't have any direction on specific resources. I also am not sure what type of violence you're referring to (i.e. war, self-defense, etc.). I'm more just sharing my personal thoughts on the matter.
The need/justification of violence in certain scenarios will not be neatly found in a proof-text / verse in the Bible. Unfortunately, the idealistic non-violence views are likely coming from doing just that: proof-texting / cherry-picking things that Jesus said (i.e. in the Sermon on the Mount). These views are shallow and simplistic.
What will afford one the right handle on such a topic is a robust theological framework/understanding, such as Reformed theology. One that speaks to the nature of God, of man, of human affairs--as inferred by the totality of Scripture and the gospel message it conveys.
For another example, consider the notion of charging interest when lending money. Some will often use a proof-text from the Levitical law to declare interest immoral (typically by referring to it as usury). However, a fully-orbed and properly-deep understanding of Scripture will show you that usury is not merely the charging of interest, but rather the exploitation of the poor by charging exorbitant interest (in other words, predatory lending). A proper understanding of Scripture would allow someone to consider interest as not evil in and of itself, and a fair risk-mitigation provided the rate is proportional to the risk.
I would see violence in much the same way. Nuance and discernment is required as to when there might be a proper usage of it. As an example: is the violence vindictive? It's wrong. Is it a defensive measure in response to an immediate attack on the weak? It's right. In terms of war, I would guess much of the thinking behind "just war" is rooted in similar ideas.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts! Little if any aspect of our human lives is categorically evil. Typically, Christians misuse the Scripture and condemn things categorically because it's easy to not have to discern between right and wrong, but rather be told from a list of rules. But the person who trusts Christ is given the freedom to discern right and wrong and grow in that discernment through trial and error (see Hebrews 5:14)--this is because the good news that we aren't saved by our works!
What you are asking for is not the results of a simple internet search. To find the real meat you have to study the writings of the Founding Fathers. Maintaining Liberty requires Scholars. My suggestion is to start with www.patriotacademy.com David Barton is very well versed in the mindset that built this country.
That's why I'm asking here. Thanks for the lead.
I'm sure there are people who know the historical thought leaders in this.
The Founding Father's are more politically minded than theologically minded though. I'm looking for the latter due to some serious church discussions.
That's where you are wrong. Many of the founding fathers were theologians. People don't know that. They were highly influenced by the religious teachings of their own time and those that came before including in Europe. I'll see if I can find a video or two to help.
These may not be exactly what you are looking for in terms "need for violence" but should get you closer.
Try reading Nehemiah as a start?
Edit: Apologia has a sermon on Jesus, Weapons and War. Have not fully listened but may be worth a listen.
Also https://redstate.com/brandon_morse/2021/12/06/thomas-massies-gun-filled-christmas-photo-brings-out-the-lefts-biblical-scholars-who-clearly-know-nothing-about-christ-n487251
Put on the full armor of God to thwart the enemy's attack!!! Never cease praying. We are in a spiritual battle. I also stand for the 2nd Amendment and fully believe in defending my life if under attack in the physical world. I don't know of any books to refer to you on this.
You can’t use scripture to prove your point. You’ll end up taking it out of context. You must go to Scripture to seek the Truth in Gods word - and be willing to hear the Truth.
This is how people justified may things - slavery, right of a husband to abuse his wife. If you want Truth, I do not believe you will find any affirmation for violence.
Some good starting points would be to research solid theologians and philosophers (e.g., Thomas Aquinas), on the topics of:
I don't know if this will be helpful to you or not, but in the old testament, God was continually sending the Jews to war, and with the promise He was with them.
that was before Jesus.
"before Jesus" as if Jesus and YHVH are not the same God... Every where in the OT you see "the word of the Lord" it's a reference to Yeshua. It's why John 1 tells us he is the Word made flesh. Stop being a western Christian believinb Catholic inspired paganism. Follow the high priest King Jesus who is a true jew and is grafting those called and willing into his kingdom.
I don't think you believe that God is not the same God before and after His Son's life on Earth. So I'm not sure how you can interpret "before Jesus" to mean such a preposterous assertion.
But our world after Jesus is different. Did we not receive His gifts of Salvation and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit? Did he not teach us a new way of living so that we not lose those gifts? Weren't His warnings to the Jewish cities where He preached and was rejected clearly stating that God's favor follows accepting the new gospel and believing in Him?
Grafting the new gospel onto the old is a maladaptation of old wine skin. Jesus taught from the Scriptures -- He built upon select scriptures as a foundation. He enlightened the meaning of Moses, of Job, of the many Prophets sent before Him. It was not hyperbole when He claimed John the Baptist as the greatest man ever to have lived up to the time of the new gospel.
And so in consideration of when and how to use violence, why wouldn't you look forward for your most advance 'arms' rather than backward to instruments who served you as best as possible given what was available at that time?
Our Founders were surely "clothed with power from on high" when they claimed the Kingdom of God is greater than the Kingdom of George. They did not declare war but independence. We are the stewards of that Liberty -- Liberty under God, and have a duty to uphold and defend against the tyranny of Man.
For what it's worth, I was raised Quaker, not Catholic. But Jesus requires unity in spirit, not uniformity in thought, so you do you.
Love that phrase, "unity in spirit not uniformity in thought." Gonna use that. And you make some good points. Love the description of the founders.
I think the point test_pattern was making is that that “God was continually sending the Jews to war” is within the context of situations in the Old Testament. In the New Testament we don’t see Jesus sending his followers to war.
"Sell your cloak, buy a sword" -Yeshua
Yes, I know. That's why I specified the OT to the OP.
Read CS Lewis’ essay on Pacifism. Really interesting
While I hate the Christian idea of "turning the other cheek" and "praying they repent," which is bullshit, this glows so bright you can see it from orbit.
Like Jesus was an FBI agent?
Without clear direction from God about attacking others for some Godly cause that He Himself has declared, the only justification for violence is in self defense or in the defense of the life of others. Very few times in the Bible did God call an offensive Holy War which was waged for His purposes and not for man's. He guaranteed the victory. Whenever the children of Israel went to war without the clear direction of God, it ended in disaster. In addition, there were very specific orders regarding how victory was to be carried out in a Holy War, as in, no profit taken. All belonged to the Almighty. The example was set by Abraham went he went to war to save Lot and others that were kidnapped. He was given victory for the saving of life. He took nothing for himself except the return of those captured. Most wars, even if they identify as Holy Wars, are fought for purely secular reasons and are therefore unsanctioned by God.
Since we are still in the season of Chanukah, if you want a case study in how and why a justified cause for violence against a strong authority was carried out and succeeded, the Maccabean Revolt is a good place to start. The issues that led to war during that time and in that place has many similarities to our current situation - an ungodly government and culture demanding assimilation and the forbidding of worshipping the Creator as He required in exchange for pagan worship. Under the Seleucid Greek authority it was against the law to practice the faith of the ancestors in service and worship to the God of Israel. Hellenistic philosophy, culture, language, and religion were to replace indigenous practices and the culture of those lands that were occupied in what remained of Alexander's empire which had later been divided among his four generals after his untimely death. Alexander had a practice of spreading Greek culture everywhere that he conquered. Some of the Jews in Israel refused to be assimilated into ungodly Greek culture. A ragtag band of priests and rebels rose up against the Hellenistic government of Antiochus IV and succeeded in overthrowing them despite being outnumbered.
A further lesson to the story is that even though the Maccabean Revolt was successful in overthrowing the foreign powers, the joy was short lived. The victors not only were established as priests in the rededicated Temple at the request of the people, but they also grasped the throne which was not lawful for them to do. They were only entitled to the priesthood as descendants of Aaron. The Hasmonean dynasty was established against the law of God that requires only a son of David to occupy the throne. They refused to relinquish power and this set the stage for the events of the life of Jesus during the Roman occupation and the brutal reign of the Herods.
The following videos are submitted for educational purposes of the Maccabean Revolt only and not to open a wider debate over Israel and the Jewish people.
THE VICTORY OF LIGHT OVER DARKENSS IN THE STORY OF HANUKKAH
Antiochus IV Epiphanes: A type of the Anti-Christ. Episode 11
And as far as the Christian perspective, the laws and principles regarding self defense laid out in the OT are not abrogated. Jesus himself understood violence in the world. And when he sent his disciples out after his death and resurrection he told them to... “Now however, the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one." Luke 22.36
We do not go out looking for trouble, but we are not to cower when it finds us. In the defense of life, we are allowed and justified to use violence - but that violence used must be proportional in order to save life after all other means are exhausted. Hate cannot be a motivation. Good luck in your search.
That’s because there are no theological arguments for offensive Christian violence within the context of the New Testament mission to make disciples of all ethnos. Matthew 26:52 shows that the weapons of the world are not the means by which God’s Kingdom will advance. There are examples of this in the book of Acts. The disciples would try to teach people and sometimes would receive violence in return. They didn’t use violence to bring the gospel to people, and they didn’t use inquisition methods of forceful conversion.
Exodus 22:2-3
Made in image of God
Try and pinch an infant: it resists. God throws a mean block an counter combo then.
can you please reframe your question in terms of the need for violence from and individual vs a group perspective? the arguments may be different.
I fine with answers approach either angle.