So my daughters and sons in laws (brothers) have decided to worship God as Messianic Jews (they have chosen Jesus as Saviour and Believe he is the Son of God) because rather than the Baptist church they were raised in which tended to avoid many tough subjects and lightly skim through others rather than delve in depth to learn, teach and understand, they wanted to learn and use entire Bible (as God intended)
My dilemma is that they have sent me a link following several discussions regarding why not to celebrate Christmas due to pagan roots So I read up on the history of Christmas. Yes, the cut tree, the red and green lights and ribbons and the wreath and mistletoe all have pagan origins, however no one knows the exact date of Jesus birth since they did not keep track and from what I gather, it sounds like worshipping God as Christians was banned and punishable by death in many countries and cultures blending these cultures with celebrating Jesus birth became a way of basically worshipping in secret and the gifts represent the gifts the wise men brought To Mary and Joseph. And the lights are like blending in Hannukah as well. Never did get into the whole Santa thing.
Both our son in laws parents (friends of ours) and my husband and I still want to get everyone together and celebrate Christmas and believe the kids are being legalistic. Currently one of our daughters and her family wish to go do something else because they don’t agree.
Praying they come around,
May I get yall’s thoughts please.
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Imho, I believe that God is pleased that we celebrate the birth of His Beloved Son. Many Christian symbols and observances were perverted by pagans. It’s possible, too, that Christians adopted pagan symbols and turned them into good symbols by definition and practice. St. Nicholas, or today’s Santa, emphasize giving, good cheer and family. The tree is evergreen (eternal). Jesus is the Light. Gifts allude to the Wisemen and God’s Gift of the Messiah to us. The beautiful carols are positive and uplifting. I am weary of people telling me that celebrating the most wonderful Birthday in the Universe has to be rigid. I think God smiles when He looks down at our attempt to make Christmas wonderful! He has said that he looks at the heart. I think you should “go all out” and celebrate to your heart’s desire. Those who criticize remind me of the Pharisees during the time of Christ.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I love that verse, and absolutely agree with my whole being! Thank you.
Amen
Worth noting that Christ's birth was not celebrated by the early church. That practice crept in later, along with all the other rituals.
I celebrate God's precious gift to us every day and give thanks.
That’s a wonderful way to live. God bless you!
You pretty much said the same as our son in laws’ mom who is calling her own sons legalistic Christmas Nazis
Nice to know I’m not alone in my thoughts!
Rooftop, methinks you are a velvet hammer! 😉
The velvet hammer approach! Love it! Hahahaaa! I am so glad you exist, or else I would go crazy. No joke.
We would all go crazy if we didn’t have this platform!😉
A what??
??
Grace,diplomacy ; taking the lead to make a point, or to get someone to do what you’d want in a smooth way!
Heres an interesting documentary or whatever. Sorry for the Shit Tube link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exmbuX1NffU
Also look into the history of the actual St. Nicholas. It's an interesting read.
Christmas is a holiday to commemorate Christs birth. Are there pagan aspects, yeah- undoubtedly. But there's more of a Christian theme to it at its core. Regardless, put the messiah first.
I love you so much. Merry Christmas you guys.
If they have decided Christmas is pagan they will not be convinced otherwise. Rather than make it a point of conflict I would maybe plan a family dinner sometime between Christmas and the new year so that the extended family can still fellowship together. I hope this helps. We have to let our children choose their own way. We may feel betrayed if they separate from the traditions they were raised in but one must certainly count their blessings. They have chosen to live in faith and this is something to be thankful for. Many Christian parents weep as they have lost their children to the world.
This ^
I'm a bit busy to check this now, but I recall the bible mentioning Jesus being born around the time that shepherd's were tending young lambs... so we can estimate which month Jesus was born.
Our family celebrates Jesus Christ's birth on December 25, but without any of the Pagan associations. We have no gift-giving or tree cutting or flashing lights or mistletoe and instead everyone is asked to cook one side dish for everyone else to enjoy and our family invites Jesus to celebrate his birth with us.
We set a place at the head of the table for Jesus Christ. We recognize that we don't know Jesus exact birth date and we each speak of acts or teachings of Jesus Christ that was specifically important to us during the year.
I think that is a good compromise.
EDIT: With enough research, I wonder if we could narrow down Jesus' birth date even further. If we could narrow it down to a few weeks then we may attract enough traction to move Christmas to a more accurate date and abandon the Pagan aspects. I'd like to see the needless consumerism of Christmas replaced by caring for strangers as a gift to our Lord and Savior.
AMEN
I think its just a distraction away from an important time of year where the truth of Christ penetrates the veil of the world more easily than at other times... I would recommend just holding steady, but as lightly as you can, that this is the time of year when the world unites around the wonder of the birth of Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to do his work in you and in them...
In my experience this knowledge based picking apart of traditions is a subtle way of diverting attention from what is really important, which is that Christ was born, that it is a miracle that changed the world, and that all the people may have glad hearts because of it.
I keep telling them, if not for Jesus birth, where would the importance in His death and resurrection be?
I suspect they probably honor His birth at a different time of year, early to mid - fall. Many Messianic Congregations for a variety of reasons believe Jesus was born around the time of Sukkot, also known as the feast of Tabernacles or Booths. This would (BTW) put His entrance into Mary's (Miriam's) womb around the time of Christmas and Hanukkah. Part of the reasoning behind this comes from some hints dropped in Scripture, such as in John 1 where it says: He dwelt among us, (literally, tabernacled) and the shepherds were watching the sheep in the fields (it would be too cold and rainy to watch them in the fields if Messiah had been born in the winter, the shepherds would be in the caves) There are other reasons, some of which are here: https://jewishroots.net/library/messianic/was-the-birth-of-christ-during-tabernacles.html
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/yeshua-concieved-at-hanukkah-born-at-sukkot.7319831/
Yes, my daughter mentioned some of this, yet she also said that early Christians believed celebrating birthdays was a pagan thing so they don’t celebrate it at all, which is totally oxymoronic considering they celebrate the kids’ birthdays but have decided to eliminate candles on cakes. So many thing they have begun doing make no sense to me.
I tried to reason with her telling both she and my son n law that if not for Jesus birth then where would the importance in his death and resurrection be?
Jack Posobiec posted about this topic around Halloween. It was right after a discussion with a coworker about the same concerns of paganism. He linked to the following site where I found the rebuttal to the pagan connection to Christmas. I hope it gives you and your family comfort and joy to be able to celebrate the way Christians have been celebrating for centuries.
https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/
I know trees have great significance, the tree was involved in the fall (Adam and Eve/ first sin), and in the salvation of man (Jesus and the cross).
I’m not a fan of Santa though. It’s anti Christmas in my opinion. Santa teaches that if you’re good you get gifts, Jesus says no one can earn salvation, the gift is free, you don’t deserve it. Santa teaches greed and materialism..and lying.
I get this. The whole Santa thing is a evil twisting of the real story of St. Nicholas. St. Nicholas is known for giving gifts to those who needed them, and for standing up to those who tried to deny the deity of Jesus.
It really is. :(
It’s heavenly. They will see it. May take a few human years.
Here’s the story of St. Nicholas: https://www.stnicholascenter.org/who-is-st-nicholas
I’ll try to sum it up like this. My belief is that the origin of the concept of Christmas relates not to Christianity itself, but the nature of the church in those times. Christianity went from a persecuted sect, to the dominate religion because of some of that.
In those times the churches were more political. As for the Pagans, their gods were tied more to aspects nature in our world. So their traditions were centered around Harvests, solstices, and equinox. The church wanted more control, so they began to culturally overshadow these festivals in a sort of takeover. Personally I don’t think it had anything to do with Christianity itself. You don’t need festivals to have a relationship with God.
Easter came from Éostre. It was a festival to honor the Germanic Goddess of Spring. She was also known as the goddess of fertility. Which is why there is a bunny and an egg. It symbolizes life and fertility. The earlier Christians overshadowed it by using it to honor the resurrection of Jesus.
Halloween, though not really a primary Christian Holiday, is celebrated by many Christians, and it comes from the Celtic festival Samhain. It was celebrated halfway between the Autumn Equinox and the Winter Solstice. They believed that boundary between the living and the dead was blurred so they dressed as spirits and monsters to try and fool the dead.
Finally Christmas. Christmas as a tradition originates from a mixture of a few Pagan traditions. Primarily Yule, but also Saturnalia, as well as Oskoreia. Saturnalia was Roman. I call it a fools festival. It was largely about drinking and partying, and it honored Saturn. The Roman’s believed Saturn to be the God of Agriculture. Yule was to celebrate what they believe to be another form of rebirth. They believed the sun was reborn and it basically brings in the new year. Some also honor Odin during this time. Now the Norse have a tradition called Oskoreia around this time. They attempt to prepare themselves for The Wild Hunt, when Odin leads a ghostly parade through the sky. Its Odin during Oskoreia that is theorized to be one of the earliest origins of Santa Claus.
In other words. It’s complicated 😂
Everyone experiences G-d. Let Him do his work.
Jmricht, I had a dear friend who wrote God’s name like you do. I asked her why, and she replied that she was taught that God’s Name was too sacred to write. I was in awe of such respect. It’s inspiring. And it’s such a shame that many misjudge the intent.
Curious why you abbreviate God
And I get shot down. Point proven. You do know you’re easy to see, right?
??? Please clarify
I was taught not to say his name. He’s kind of a big deal.
I read up in the Bible (since it breaks my heart when I hear the name if God profaned and makes me furious at the same time) and it sounds like when using the name of God to discuss and share him with others and to talk with and pray to God is good, yet not for cursing, swearing and the like.
You just shared a shortcut for beginners.
Sick of seeing "Christians" say Christmas is a pagan holiday.
The Christmas tree represents the saints who cut down pagan groves where they worshipped trees, i.e. Jesus triumphing over false gods.
It is as pagan as Easter: worship of the sun, not the son. I gave up celebrating it a few years ago and have grown spiritually and been abundantly blessed. Had doubts and niggles for a while, "Pagan Christianity?" by Barnes and Viola finally convinced me. I swapped the glitter and the baubles for something far more precious and joyful.
Traditions are innocently accepted and ignorantly passed on.
Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices
https://books.crossmap.com/book/pagan-christianity-exploring-the-roots-of-our-church-practices-2/
Celebrating with family gatherings for a feast Jesus himself would have celebrated makes sense. The commercial side of Xmas and kids expecting presents etc always bothered me. That said, too many go into the Judeica practices: prayer shawls etc. which is just as ritualistic and bad.
I see my personal Jesuit troll is still hard at work downvoting me. May God's grace, love and peace be upon you.
Orthodox Christians in Eastern Europe celebrate Christmas on the 7 of January, nativity day. My Russian friend said it’s bc they don’t follow the Roman calendar. Maybe celebrate it then? But I think God just is happy however we celebrate.
Isn’t it nice God can take a Pagan Holiday and turn it towards him
I think it’s more about the church wanting control. If there are Pagan holidays it gives other options. But if the new Christian traditions become the big THING people do every year it takes over. Can’t exert control if the populace doesn’t buy what you’re selling. The churches back then operated more like government entities.
Just Tell them if they want to toss everything with Pagan origins they’ll have to toss everything from the names of our planets, to the names of the days of the week. Because the days of the week honor Norse Gods lol
Funny you should say that. That was actually another conversation with one of my son in laws. We were all out stargazing one night and my son brought up that while out in dark putting his birds in coops for the night he saw a slow moving streak in the sky (turned out to be one of the new space exploration/satellite companies) and one of our grand daughter pointed out a big bright star which I then noticed appeared to be moving slowly, so I said maybe it’s a satellite or a planet. My son in law piped in and said “I don’t believe in planets, it’s just a star.” This got me looking for planets in the Bible and by george, I think he may be right. There’s mention I found of the earth, the sun and moon and stars and heavenly host and the universe. Nothing that I could find on planets. I do believe it’s quite possibly a manmade theory that has been adopted as fact because if ‘science’
I believe there is a distinction between stars and heavenly host, which sometimes refers to planets, and sometimes refers to angels:
And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven. Deut. 4:9
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Planets here's one answer: https://askjohnmackay.com/planets-why-does-the-bible-only-mention-the-creation-of-stars-and-not-the-planets/
Yep, makes sense
To deny the existence of planets would be to deny the existence of gravity. Because of how gravity works. You can’t jump and float away, because gravity pulls you down. The gravity that pulls you down is based on the size of our planet. The gravity based on the size of our planet is what holds the moon in our orbit. The moons gravity is what controls the tides of our oceans. The gravity of the sun is what holds the moon and our planet in orbit. Jupiter’s gravity is what protects us from a large part of any potential asteroids. Etc
The stars or ‘heavenly hosts’ could be what does that
Could be
It was a question on what others thoughts were on how I should deal with the situation with a different belief than my girls and sons in law. Sorry, if I wasn’t clear on that.
Chris Pinto usually covers this every year at Christmas. Here is last year's episode:
From Christmas 2020:
http://www.noiseofthunderradio.com/show-downloads/2020/12/25/notr-the-annual-christmas-show-12252020.html
Here are some notes:
199AD Churches began celebrating the birth of Christ
Christmas trees are not Asherah poles. Search for "asherah poles" online to see the difference.
Christmas trees don't show up until the time of Martin Luther. One Lutheran historian claims that Luther was the first one to have a Christmas tree but it's not believed by many Lutherans.
Some believe Christmas trees are a fulfilment of prophecy:
Isiah 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree and the box together to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
From Christmas 2019:
http://www.noiseofthunderradio.com/show-downloads/2019/12/25/notr-the-annual-christmas-show-122519.html
He explains that Jeremiah 10 refers to carving idols out of wood and overlaying them with gold or silver. These were then worshipped as gods--nothing to do with the modern Christmas tree. (BTW he makes reference to the making of idols of Mary.)
He does not do Santa Claus and the elves, but focuses on the birth of Jesus Christ.
"The practice of remembering the things that God has done on an annual basis or a regular basis and teaching it to your kids, this is something that we're shown over and over again in the old testament."
The Christmas Tree is a post reformation invention and often traced to Martin Luther, though not believed by all historians.
Q. Is the Christmas date, Dec 25 the feast of Saturnalia?
A. No, that was Dec 17th - 23rd.
The 25th was actually chosen because from Jewish tradition, a prophet dies on the day of his conception. The date of Christ's death was said to be March 25, so that was chosen as the date of his conception. So you can add 9 months months which takes you to Dec 25.
Some will try to argue that it's the worship of Saul Invictus, but in reality Saul Invictus worship begins in 274 AD, about 75 years after the first recorded Christmas celebration by Christians.
He says that he has spoken before that the worship of Saul Invictus seems to have been imposed to try and cover up the Christian holiday; not the other way around.
These are some of the scriptures that my daughter brought to my attention.
Jeremiah 10:3-4 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Isaiah 57:5 You burn with lust among the oaks and under every spreading tree; you sacrifice your children in the ravines and under the overhanging crags.
Jeremiah 2:20 “Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, ‘I will not serve you!’ Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute.
Jeremiah 3:6 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, “Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there.
As I said before, Jer 10:3-4 is about making idols (statues) out of wood that represent false gods, not about worshipping trees themselves.
Always check against the KJV and read John Gill's commentary.
The KVJ version of Isaiah 57:5 is:
And reading John Gills commentary suggests that under the trees is just a location where they would worship their wooden idols, just as on the hilltops is another location.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-57-5.html
Note: with this next reference, the commentary on the last phrase of Jer 2:20 has been erroneously buried under the footnotes section:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/jeremiah-2-20.html
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/jeremiah-3-6.html
Curious why you responded the same twice
I edited the post to fix a typo, which must have sent it to you twice?
Oh, ok
BTW, sorry if my posts sound a bit dry. I was just being factual and to the point with limited time.
So I would like to add this:
Have a Merry Christmas!!
You too
I want to join this conversation because I’m a Pagan, but I don’t want to end up in an argument with my frens.
Why don’t you join and we will civily prove to you that God is real and loves you and the pagan gods are not real and any who may be are actually demonic and evil. Care to take that challenge?
As long as we can still be frens if you don’t succeed
Sure but will still keep you in prayer if we can’t that one day while still living you will meet and choose Jesus.
I appreciate it. Who knows, maybe one day I will. But I need to see more evidence than just something written by man. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, just a statement
That's high bar to meet. Many things are written down that we regard as historical and believe without much question. Part of the reason we do is because the evidence is so strong: we have eye witnesses to the events who have recorded them in writing, they have been found to be accurate on other historical details, such as titles of government officials, city names, time frames, and even details that only someone living at the locale and time would know, such as unusual titles for local officials. Interestingly enough, this can be said of the Gospels, as well, and in particular, Luke.
They can celebrate Jesus any timed they like... including on the pagan holiday. All they need to avoid is celebrating Yule.