“Roe was egregiously wrong from the start,” Alito writes. The entire draft opinion can be read below:
(www.scribd.com)
🏆 WINS OF THE DAY 🏆
You're viewing a single comment thread. View all comments, or full comment thread.
Comments (243)
sorted by:
You and I probably agree philosophically on abortion, but I disagree with the attributions you make to liberals as to why they are pro-choice, and I think that will result in you underestimating the number of people willing to vote against you.
Which, of course, would then result in you assuming you have far more support for your position than you do, which means that voter fraud seems a more likely reason for you to lose on an issue than being outvoted.
The fact is that conservatives are absolutely right that abortion is a right-to-life issue.
And the fact is that liberals are absolutely right that abortion is a women’s rights issue.
And the two sides are rarely arguing the same point, or acknowledging the other side’s point, which is why this issue is ongoing.
I agree with conservatives that abortion kills people. I am not a fan of that. But I also can’t fathom how we can possibly have a free society when a man can decide the entire future for a woman just by impregnating her with a baby she isn’t allowed to take any action to remove from her life. Whether it’s common or not, it’s a knife that hangs over the head of every woman in this country, and I don’t see how they can ever be equal citizens when abortion is illegal.
I’ve spent time pissing off liberals by insisting that pro-lifers have other motivations than enslaving women. I think it would behoove you to make similar appraisals about liberals in this case if you have any genuine interest in resolving this problem in this country.
There are times when the fellow wants the baby and the woman still chooses to kill it.
I think given the subject matter on this board, you realize that not every woman chooses to have sex when they get pregnant. And not every woman who chooses to have sex chooses to get pregnant.
A man who sabotages the condom can make that choice for her, for instance.
It’s also worth noting that if a woman can’t get an abortion, that allows rapists an enormous amount of power over their victims, if they’re willing to go to jail for it.
“Sure, I’m going to jail. But nobody was having sex with me. Now, my genes are going to be passed on by Natalie Portman. I’m okay with it.”
Sure, we could allow abortions in the case of rape, but why? If we’re prioritizing the life above all else, the fetus didn’t commit the rape. So I can’t think of a logical reason to allow rape victims to get abortions under a purely pro-life approach.
I’m not going to sit here and defend abortion, because I don’t believe in abortion. But let’s not oversimplify the pro-choice position here. It’s about far more than sluts being slutty.
As someone who has interacted with rape survivors in a professional setting, I can tell you firsthand that the vast majority of women who get an abortion in order to erase a rape from their lives are not usually going to take time to talk about that situation with someone taking statistics over it.
Data over sexual assault is incredibly hard to mine, because it requires people who want to talk about it (after taking measures to forget it completely), and so a lot of data involving this population is severely underreported.
There's not a good way to take reliable data over why a woman is getting an abortion in the US, so I'd be careful with statistics suggesting rape as such a low percentage.
I don't know what statistics you'd trust, but look up on your own how many women experience rape or rape attempts. The sources I'm seeing say between 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 women report this.
Now ask yourself if you honestly believe that with so many of those, the number that result in pregnancy is inconsequentially small. Your answer may agree with mine.
I’m focused on the root of the issue, and the necessary hurdle Dems would need to scale/cross to vote ‘the right way’.
The issue with the arguments the Left (the lost 50% of Dems) always make is to focus on the extremities of the issue — rather than look at factual data, they force the narrative, focus only on the extreme and make that the pivotal argument points, then lather on a thick dose of ‘Women’s Rights’ on to that. It’s THE Playbook that is used for all issues we face today coming from the Left e.g. Equity, the ‘pay gap’, systemic racism, climate change, vaccines, etc. etc. etc. list goes on.
But these people are considered ‘lost’ imo, there is always redemption for sure. But we will never be able to see eye to eye on this issue. Just assume they will vote against you, period. No need to waste your time on them, unless of course you’re just out to piss them off for sport :)
The other 50% of Dems, who actually hold conservative values … those are the ones you can have a meaningful conversation about, for the fact that they are standing on the same foundation and you and I. These are the same people who would vote Democrat, knowingly going against their Principles, because they think “well, at least they’re not Nazis”.
I appreciate your comments once again Rando. As a former pro choicer myself, it constantly befuddled me that the pro choicers were seemingly never willing to even remotely compromise.
As someone who's loathed condoms and went on a pretty savage kill streak throughout my 20s, I can truthfully say, it is actually an infinitesimally small likelihood to ever get a woman pregnant if she is both, on birth control, AND plan B. Even if you're an animal like me and intentionally refuse to pull out (unless she kindly requests, in which case I'll be a gentleman lol).
And even then, the Texas heartbeat bill STILL makes exceptions for both Incest AND rape. ALSO in considerations for the mothers life, AND even moved the marker for when life starts to 6 to 8 weeks.
If you would seek to be so many more magnitudes irresponsible than even myself, and STILL refuse to be on birth control, AND refuse to take Plan B, AND willfully ignore any pregnancy test for over 6 weeks after you've been inseminated, then you have demonstrated yourself to be objectively and intentionally reckless and deserve to have your privilege of having sex whilst avoiding the consequence of pregnancy, revoked.
The pro lifers have compromised at every step. As a reasonable human being who would be in quite a predicament if I suddenly had to raise a child right now, I would really not like to raise anyone's child especially if I didn't actually love the girl.
But alas I have gone as far as spending 800$ on plan B in two months one summer, and even skipped an important lecture once to drive out an hour each way to get that pills in a woman's mouth because she didn't want to spend the money.
As the man doing the slaying, how far are you willing to to to preserve your freedom to not have to raise a child? For myself, I will go as far as possible, because I refuse to get someone killed as a result of being unable to keep it in my pants.
So here is a question.
Why should rape and incest be exceptions? The fetus didn’t rape anyone. Are we punishing the child for the sins of the father?
You going to be the one to tell every rape pregnancy and abortion survivor that their life is worthless? Please record these interactions for posterity.
Well personally I don't think that rape should be an exception. For exactly the reason you stated, and also because the idea that rape is morally wrong is a relatively new idea that came about with the increased civility and standards of a progressed society. Rape exists commonly amongst other animals, and its just another factor in the evolutionary competition amongst organisms as they fight for access to the females in their species.
However when it comes to Incest, I'm definitely a bit more lenient because of the significant increase in birth defects and developmental delays, along with permanent resentment of the child from the mother.
Nonetheless, my point was that the Texas bill DID allow compromises be made in these areas. And thats a fact that I feel is often overlooked by the framing tactics used by the media publications who cleverly craft these narratives as an "all or nothing", situation in which the pro choice people's feelings are being completely disregarded which is not the case.
I mean this with absolutely no malice or negativity, but it's exactly that attitude that makes liberals dig their heels in so much on this.
Because these compromises aren't real compromises. Because your argument against abortion is absolutist, and doesn't permit compromises.
"The life of the unborn child is prioritized above anything that doesn't immediately threaten the life of the mother."
And if I accept that foundation as a valid legal basis, then yes, I not only can make the argument that babies from rape and incest must be protected from abortion, but I MUST make that argument.
Because it follows from the argument we already accepted, the one that justified banning abortion in the first place. There's no way to avoid going further with it. The argument itself demands to be taken as far as possible.
And so when Gaetz or Greene or someone else brave enough inevitably does introduce measures designed to outlaw abortion across the spectrum, the liberals know that not a single person offering us this compromise is going to fight to protect it.
Nobody around here is going to say, "Now wait a minute, we said we weren't going to do that. Even though we've accepted this is a life-or-death issue and the life of the baby comes before everything."
We know that, because the Justices that are voting in favor of overturning Roe pinky-swore that Roe was settled law during their hearings. It wasn't true, even if it felt true when they were saying it. It's called a "foot-in-the-door technique."
There was zero chance that they could ethically stand by their promise if they actually believed in their own pro-life absolutism.
So... yeah. I don't hold it against you. I just recognize that your argument doesn't allow you to protect a compromise. I wouldn't be able to in your position, if I was being loyal to my own argument.
For that reason, you really shouldn't be surprised that liberals are willing to fight hard for this. They know losing ground on this is going to cascade.
Because there isn't a world in which we can accept "the unborn baby comes before everything" and not eventually see in that same world men irreversibly tying themselves to a woman for life without her consent.
I don't blame women for being utterly terrified of such a world, even if you consider the possibility of such scenarios to be rare.
Which is why, despite not liking the cost of abortion, I am not uncomfortable voting liberal (for non-abortion related issues). I simply can't find a means of banning abortion that doesn't have potentially irreversible consequences for the rights of women in our society, given our current level of technology and resources.
I understand their argument. And I understand your argument. And I think that both sides don't really understand the argument of the other side. And until you admit they have a point, and until they admit you have a point, there will be no constructive progress made on this issue.
This is extremely simple to compromise. Just expose the PP and the baby parts industry to the world. Project Veritas had already done an expose but everyone needs to see and hear what really happens.
In my mind, if the fact that everything about abortion is about money is exposed, left and right can come to a reasonable compromise and there wont be any hidden hands behind the shadows causing unnecessary division.
Honestly, this issue should not be the one to divide people.
It’s this sort of aggressive, straw-manning oversimplification of important issues and unprovoked, unnecessary, and unproductive ad hom attacks that leads me to not discuss these things with you anymore, Zeitreise.
I agree with you here Random Ogre. People like me know very well that it's not the woman's fault I'm so charming and charismatic that their rate of successfully stopping me from being able to slide into their panties is very low.
They aren't sluts just because I opened their legs. The ones who are sluts are the ones who open their legs for anyone and everyone and take no precautions to ensure the risk of pregnancy is as minimal as possible.