So close to 2 million embryos did not survive .... I wonder how many of those went on to secretly become babies/children to be harvested for organs, blood(adrenochrome), sacrifices, maybe even a scenario like the Matrix movie. LOTS of possibilities. Awful to ponder but probable unfortunately.
If we take this ethos to it's logical conclusion, then we would have to mandate IVF for all fertile females having sex or ban them from sex.
Because fertilized embryos don't implant or implant and are rejected (for a myriad of reasons) regularly inside a woman's body. The end result is the same as IVF (worse, numbers-wise, over her fertile and sexually active lifetime) but at least with IVF the implanted embryos selected have a better shot at success than with nature's odds.
If we're going to elevate these very young embryos to personhood, then we'd better have a plan to save 'em all and not just the easy ones made under lab conditions.
What happens in nature is directed by God and God is the Lord of human life. He grants and takes it according to His infinite wisdom. When doctors and scientists try to play God, it never goes well.
The implications are that children are a blessing, not a right, and none of us has the right to create children in a petri dish and then discard them if they are too many or defective. Yes I have most definitely thought throught the implications. But our society has a me first problem that even extends to the noble wish to be a parent.
I’ve posted some pretty aggressive anti-abortion memes, and believe we should have more discussion about the ethics of IVF, but I won’t demonize anyone for this one.
The spirit behind it simply isn’t the same as the spirit behind abortion, but it’s also always good to be better informed, and it does have its opportunity for abuses, and less obvious costs, just as abortion does.
There is fairly easy opportunity to agree that the less we leverage its use, the better. The hormones it leverages are known to dramatically increase lifetime cancer risk, if nothing else.
This is a win-lose situation. For women who have trouble with pregnancy they can atleast birth their own child, but the process is imperfect and does put the mothers life and pregnancy at risk if too many eggs fertilizer and hold. While I sit on the pro life side and am happy for those lives who come about the ivf process, I know there is a cost too. Idk 🤷♂️ too many philosophical question that im not equipped to answer.
Can't do objective evil so that a good will result. Destruction of innocent human life at whatever stage is always an extreme evil. That's where we have to start from as a premise philosophically. If the process involves that scenario, it cannot be tolerated. Trouble is, our society does not hold that premise as true...
I have 6 neices and nephews who were conceived via IVF-absolute amazing little humans welcomed into loving families, that otherwise never would have existed! I would be more sympathetic to the authors if they also included miscarriages and stillborns in their data- an IVF embryo that doesn't make it until term should never be compared to a woman who willfully scrapes her child from her womb.
I mean, this is like comparing apples to oranges. Yeah IVF can lead to lost embryos, but that's part of the process. Women doing IVF are intentionally TRYING to have babies but either can't, have problems, or are trying to filter out genetic and developmental problems (more common than most people realize) in the future children.
Abortion is literally killing children, IVF is trying to have children. Realistically a woman is NOT going to use EVERY egg she has over the course of her life for a child. That would be insane. This kind of argument that embryos and eggs lost during IVF attempts are "more babies dead" is absurd, because by that logic every month since a woman has her first period, she's killing babies by shedding eggs and not getting pregnant.
I'm not saying it's not a complicated issue, I CAN understand the other side of the isle on this issue, I don't necessarily agree, but I get where they're coming from. But comparing this to abortion is absurd.
One is literally trying to have a baby, the other is baby murder.
Eggs lost are like sperm lost, NOT A HUMAN BEING. The worst part of IVF is the creation of UNIQUE HUMAN BEINGS through union of sperm and egg. Embryos are not the same as eggs. So yes, IVF absolutely results in more babies dead. Unique, unrepeatable human beings who have begun to live and grow.
It just goes to show, 3 downvotes mean at least three here do not understand basic science. They actually think an egg or a sperm on its own, constitutes a person. Nope, sorry guys, they're just single cells with your own DNA at that point.
A large percentage of these are done by wealthy women that played around with dozens of unserious relationships or just worked on launching their careers in their 20s. In their late 30s they're thinking "hey," I want to be a mom.
Bullshit. My sister in laws went thru hell and large amounts of $$$ to conceive, and thru their experiences and counseling, didnt meet one "wealthy woman who played around with unserious relationships"...
Im in my 50s and never met one female who went thru IVF to get their kids- I also was a medical rep who sold to fertility clinics- most, meaning over 90% of all my Dr's patients were married, middle to upper class who desperately wanted kids and many had 2-3 miscarriages prior
I know one family with an IVF baby. He's really cute but I won't lie and say that when I look at him I don't wonder if somehow he will turn out "different" due to the method used. I don't see the child often enough to tell.
His fellow fertilized eggs sit frozen somewhere. Their mother is done with her family so what is to become of them I have no idea. Makes me wonder how this kid will feel twenty years from now -- "there but for the grace of God" thoughts will buy him a few years on a therapist's couch.
I don't think I could do this unless I intended to use them all. I can't see leaving one in perpetual storage for eternity...is that putting the soul into suspension? One can only imagine....
So close to 2 million embryos did not survive .... I wonder how many of those went on to secretly become babies/children to be harvested for organs, blood(adrenochrome), sacrifices, maybe even a scenario like the Matrix movie. LOTS of possibilities. Awful to ponder but probable unfortunately.
Reading this, and knowing the possibility of it being true, deeply hurts my heart.
If we take this ethos to it's logical conclusion, then we would have to mandate IVF for all fertile females having sex or ban them from sex.
Because fertilized embryos don't implant or implant and are rejected (for a myriad of reasons) regularly inside a woman's body. The end result is the same as IVF (worse, numbers-wise, over her fertile and sexually active lifetime) but at least with IVF the implanted embryos selected have a better shot at success than with nature's odds.
If we're going to elevate these very young embryos to personhood, then we'd better have a plan to save 'em all and not just the easy ones made under lab conditions.
What happens in nature is directed by God and God is the Lord of human life. He grants and takes it according to His infinite wisdom. When doctors and scientists try to play God, it never goes well.
I appreciate your philosophy but I don't think you've thought through the implications of really acting on it outside of this convenient narrow case.
The implications are that children are a blessing, not a right, and none of us has the right to create children in a petri dish and then discard them if they are too many or defective. Yes I have most definitely thought throught the implications. But our society has a me first problem that even extends to the noble wish to be a parent.
I’ve posted some pretty aggressive anti-abortion memes, and believe we should have more discussion about the ethics of IVF, but I won’t demonize anyone for this one.
The spirit behind it simply isn’t the same as the spirit behind abortion, but it’s also always good to be better informed, and it does have its opportunity for abuses, and less obvious costs, just as abortion does.
There is fairly easy opportunity to agree that the less we leverage its use, the better. The hormones it leverages are known to dramatically increase lifetime cancer risk, if nothing else.
This is a win-lose situation. For women who have trouble with pregnancy they can atleast birth their own child, but the process is imperfect and does put the mothers life and pregnancy at risk if too many eggs fertilizer and hold. While I sit on the pro life side and am happy for those lives who come about the ivf process, I know there is a cost too. Idk 🤷♂️ too many philosophical question that im not equipped to answer.
Can't do objective evil so that a good will result. Destruction of innocent human life at whatever stage is always an extreme evil. That's where we have to start from as a premise philosophically. If the process involves that scenario, it cannot be tolerated. Trouble is, our society does not hold that premise as true...
Yes I don't agree with IVF at all and definitely don't agree with Trump making it more accessible
I have 6 neices and nephews who were conceived via IVF-absolute amazing little humans welcomed into loving families, that otherwise never would have existed! I would be more sympathetic to the authors if they also included miscarriages and stillborns in their data- an IVF embryo that doesn't make it until term should never be compared to a woman who willfully scrapes her child from her womb.
I mean, this is like comparing apples to oranges. Yeah IVF can lead to lost embryos, but that's part of the process. Women doing IVF are intentionally TRYING to have babies but either can't, have problems, or are trying to filter out genetic and developmental problems (more common than most people realize) in the future children.
Abortion is literally killing children, IVF is trying to have children. Realistically a woman is NOT going to use EVERY egg she has over the course of her life for a child. That would be insane. This kind of argument that embryos and eggs lost during IVF attempts are "more babies dead" is absurd, because by that logic every month since a woman has her first period, she's killing babies by shedding eggs and not getting pregnant.
I'm not saying it's not a complicated issue, I CAN understand the other side of the isle on this issue, I don't necessarily agree, but I get where they're coming from. But comparing this to abortion is absurd.
One is literally trying to have a baby, the other is baby murder.
Eggs lost are like sperm lost, NOT A HUMAN BEING. The worst part of IVF is the creation of UNIQUE HUMAN BEINGS through union of sperm and egg. Embryos are not the same as eggs. So yes, IVF absolutely results in more babies dead. Unique, unrepeatable human beings who have begun to live and grow.
It just goes to show, 3 downvotes mean at least three here do not understand basic science. They actually think an egg or a sperm on its own, constitutes a person. Nope, sorry guys, they're just single cells with your own DNA at that point.
A large percentage of these are done by wealthy women that played around with dozens of unserious relationships or just worked on launching their careers in their 20s. In their late 30s they're thinking "hey," I want to be a mom.
Of all the women I know personally who have gone the IVF route, none of them fit this category.
Bullshit. My sister in laws went thru hell and large amounts of $$$ to conceive, and thru their experiences and counseling, didnt meet one "wealthy woman who played around with unserious relationships"... Im in my 50s and never met one female who went thru IVF to get their kids- I also was a medical rep who sold to fertility clinics- most, meaning over 90% of all my Dr's patients were married, middle to upper class who desperately wanted kids and many had 2-3 miscarriages prior
This is a difficult thing.
I know one family with an IVF baby. He's really cute but I won't lie and say that when I look at him I don't wonder if somehow he will turn out "different" due to the method used. I don't see the child often enough to tell.
His fellow fertilized eggs sit frozen somewhere. Their mother is done with her family so what is to become of them I have no idea. Makes me wonder how this kid will feel twenty years from now -- "there but for the grace of God" thoughts will buy him a few years on a therapist's couch.
I don't think I could do this unless I intended to use them all. I can't see leaving one in perpetual storage for eternity...is that putting the soul into suspension? One can only imagine....
Absolutely, fren. These are the conclusions of this process. And why it is so wrong to be playing God with the unfathomable gift of human life.
IVF without these losses is possible. Making the process cheaper will help too
IVF is an invention of Satan. Just as the birth control pill is.