I was reading your post (and I did read all of it) with an open mind until you said "according to their individual morals and values." I still have an open mind, but I am confused by your logic. If the matter of abortion always comes down to individual morals and values, then some people would be justified (under that relativistic paradigm) to go with the new 4th trimester bullshit, let alone 2nd and 3rd trimesters.
To me, the problem is a lack of humility among human beings. Belief in God, or not, if we are not humble enough in the presence of creations earliest moment, then all else is a slippery slope, and we are no better than a male carnivore that eats its own young.
I'm on the road and I can't elaborate as much as I want but your posts are really good.
Most anti abortion folks are pretty hypocritical because they'll happily support couples doing IVF...where anywhere from one to a two dozen embryos get killed just to have one "miracle" pregnancy instead of just adopting
I dont agree that embryos are being killed in ivf for all couples. It is still natural selection taking place. Most of the embryos die on their own in the support material before day 3 as they would in the womb due to abnormalities of the cells or they don't keep splitting. A few more will stop growing on there own before day 5 for the same reasons.
At day 5 a choice: good embryos can be put back in the womb, frozen to be used later or discarded (that would be a mom who doesn't care) I doubt anti abortion are discarding when my next example is a viable option. These things can be discussed with the fertility doctor. Most women going through that are doing it for want of children and aren't going to be willy nilly destroying precious potential babies.
I had my embryos that didn't look so viable (already deteriorating) be used and put into my womb where God and nature could take its course if it wanted.
I am 42. 6 rounds of ivf and I only ever had 1 embryo live each time to day 5. 2 miscarriages and 4 didn't even implant - that is up to god.
Anyway just an opinion from someone in those trenches who is prolife. My 7th round worked well finally and I froze 5. The first didn't implant, 2nd was my first born child this year. I will keep trying with all three of the frozen ones. I would never destroy them even if I'm trying till I'm 50.
Now if you are talking about women who discard frozen saved embryos you are right and I don't know how many do that let alone women who are anti abortion like me - I wouldn't do it. Maybe they can't foot the yearly bill of 1000 dollars for freezing storage so then maybe you are right. Others will use all their frozen embryos - hoping God wills it into a baby.
Ivf life - nobody going into an ivf clinic or working for one wants to see those lives destroyed. I don't doubt that there are some evil ones out there as in anything but it hasn't been my experience. That cli ic was with me for 10 years even though I lowered their success rates. They clearly scared about me throughout my pregnancy. They were more supportive of the life In me then women and infants in Providence that hounded me to get pregnancy vaxxed.
Also - who kills their embryos they spent 15000 to 50000 for even if prochoice.
Lastly many vote prochoice who haven't really looked into the science behind life (ivf clinics understand this science better than most)
Many of these women think they are prochoice but wouldn't actually use it themselves - again women doing ivf want that baby.
Not sure I agree with you that those are the only two opinions allowed to be debated. Even the most rabid Democrats I know wouldn't argue that you can kill a baby after it's born. It's always a number of weeks after conception. Maybe those people do exist, but I certainly haven't met any of them.
I like most of your posts rooftop (I mostly lurk and comment as I did on chans and voat) and appreciate your long post on where the debate is at and why it's wrongly framed.
My belief is if it is moving and splitting and growing...it is living. It is making its brain and heart to better support its life but i happen to believe each cell is a brain and it can feel itself to do its most basic functions. The lowliest one celled organism bacteria would be considered a sign of life by science on another planet so why not the two celled split organism at conception? And I call those cells my baby when actively trying to procreate even at 1 week pregnant. So my thing is that it doesn't need a heart or nerve ending to want to exist if it is already growing it clearly does want to exist. It is the basic form of us yes but it is still a unique human life. Maybe science will be able to see far enough some day to know that a divided 2 celled human being can feel at its most basic level. Then would abortion be wrong for those who say not past a heartbeat or until it can feel etc..but before is ok?
Yeah maybe there should be exceptions if it's forced on you by a real rape but those are less than 1% of what the debate is even talking about. Most people are doing it for convenience and as birth control because they've been told it is just a clump of cells and it's their body to choose to murder it. At 8 weeks that baby has every organ and limb and is super small but formed but that is legal to abort as well in 1st trimester.
Many women have never seen an aborted baby spasming in death throws in the 1st trimester because they willfully will not look at the ultrasounds showing it clearly. Deep down they know it's life but want to stay asleep to the evil of it for conveniences sake. Murder isn't a choice and while it is in their body it is its own form tenously only attached through a placenta which is an organ it grew. Murder is never right.
It is also not needed to abort a child to save the moms life. I'm sure there's one rare exception but most of the time delivering the baby saves the life of both. C section is done.
If you look at ultrasounds of abortions or wanted babies you cannot unlook and if it doesn't effect that person they might be a psychopath.
Not saying you are one, as i dont know how much research or looking you have done but for some reason I felt I needed to comment on this. Maybe it will spark a thought for someone. I tried for 20 years and 7 rounds of grueling ivf. I've read thousands of papers and seen hundreds of ultrasounds. I know the heart ache of a lost child at 4 weeks and 6 weeks and 8 weeks and the joy from my firstborn this year at 42. When you want that life you can feel it's presence. It effects every part of your body and communicates with your body and you feel its loss for days and weeks and years. For a women to willingly put herself into that kind of trauma and to be the cause of it...it breaks my heart for them even if they do not understand what they did was wrong. But many who did an abortion deeply regretted it right after and turned them prolife. It's innate shame they did something wrong even if they don't know why. The body knew.
Babies are a gift. Struggling with infertility you realize just how tenuous and amazing it all is. Most babies die naturally before a women even gets a period. More than most women know. If any one thing goes wrong in the cycle process that life isn't happening. They teach us procreation is easy but in reality healthy couples in their fertile years between 18 and 28 only have a 25% chance of conception. It lowers every year after that until its less than 5% chance to even conceive in your 40s. That isn't even the % chance that baby implants which is lower. And the % chance that baby lives to a heartbeat. Every baby has passed insurmountable odds to be a gift. It shouldn't be discarded like trash.
I've never met any like that either. A lot of Democrats I've had discussions with tend to agree that if the baby can survive outside the womb even with lots of medical intervention, that abortions shouldn't happen after that unless the pregnancy is directly threatening the mother's life. This period of viability of a baby outside the womb is usually about 24 weeks for any sort of good survivability. That's around the end of the second trimester. The large majority of abortions happen within the first trimester.
I was reading your post (and I did read all of it) with an open mind until you said "according to their individual morals and values." I still have an open mind, but I am confused by your logic. If the matter of abortion always comes down to individual morals and values, then some people would be justified (under that relativistic paradigm) to go with the new 4th trimester bullshit, let alone 2nd and 3rd trimesters.
To me, the problem is a lack of humility among human beings. Belief in God, or not, if we are not humble enough in the presence of creations earliest moment, then all else is a slippery slope, and we are no better than a male carnivore that eats its own young.
This is a very good post. Thank you.
I'm on the road and I can't elaborate as much as I want but your posts are really good.
Most anti abortion folks are pretty hypocritical because they'll happily support couples doing IVF...where anywhere from one to a two dozen embryos get killed just to have one "miracle" pregnancy instead of just adopting
I dont agree that embryos are being killed in ivf for all couples. It is still natural selection taking place. Most of the embryos die on their own in the support material before day 3 as they would in the womb due to abnormalities of the cells or they don't keep splitting. A few more will stop growing on there own before day 5 for the same reasons.
At day 5 a choice: good embryos can be put back in the womb, frozen to be used later or discarded (that would be a mom who doesn't care) I doubt anti abortion are discarding when my next example is a viable option. These things can be discussed with the fertility doctor. Most women going through that are doing it for want of children and aren't going to be willy nilly destroying precious potential babies.
I had my embryos that didn't look so viable (already deteriorating) be used and put into my womb where God and nature could take its course if it wanted.
I am 42. 6 rounds of ivf and I only ever had 1 embryo live each time to day 5. 2 miscarriages and 4 didn't even implant - that is up to god.
Anyway just an opinion from someone in those trenches who is prolife. My 7th round worked well finally and I froze 5. The first didn't implant, 2nd was my first born child this year. I will keep trying with all three of the frozen ones. I would never destroy them even if I'm trying till I'm 50.
Now if you are talking about women who discard frozen saved embryos you are right and I don't know how many do that let alone women who are anti abortion like me - I wouldn't do it. Maybe they can't foot the yearly bill of 1000 dollars for freezing storage so then maybe you are right. Others will use all their frozen embryos - hoping God wills it into a baby.
Ivf life - nobody going into an ivf clinic or working for one wants to see those lives destroyed. I don't doubt that there are some evil ones out there as in anything but it hasn't been my experience. That cli ic was with me for 10 years even though I lowered their success rates. They clearly scared about me throughout my pregnancy. They were more supportive of the life In me then women and infants in Providence that hounded me to get pregnancy vaxxed.
Also - who kills their embryos they spent 15000 to 50000 for even if prochoice.
Lastly many vote prochoice who haven't really looked into the science behind life (ivf clinics understand this science better than most)
Many of these women think they are prochoice but wouldn't actually use it themselves - again women doing ivf want that baby.
Not sure I agree with you that those are the only two opinions allowed to be debated. Even the most rabid Democrats I know wouldn't argue that you can kill a baby after it's born. It's always a number of weeks after conception. Maybe those people do exist, but I certainly haven't met any of them.
I like most of your posts rooftop (I mostly lurk and comment as I did on chans and voat) and appreciate your long post on where the debate is at and why it's wrongly framed.
My belief is if it is moving and splitting and growing...it is living. It is making its brain and heart to better support its life but i happen to believe each cell is a brain and it can feel itself to do its most basic functions. The lowliest one celled organism bacteria would be considered a sign of life by science on another planet so why not the two celled split organism at conception? And I call those cells my baby when actively trying to procreate even at 1 week pregnant. So my thing is that it doesn't need a heart or nerve ending to want to exist if it is already growing it clearly does want to exist. It is the basic form of us yes but it is still a unique human life. Maybe science will be able to see far enough some day to know that a divided 2 celled human being can feel at its most basic level. Then would abortion be wrong for those who say not past a heartbeat or until it can feel etc..but before is ok?
Yeah maybe there should be exceptions if it's forced on you by a real rape but those are less than 1% of what the debate is even talking about. Most people are doing it for convenience and as birth control because they've been told it is just a clump of cells and it's their body to choose to murder it. At 8 weeks that baby has every organ and limb and is super small but formed but that is legal to abort as well in 1st trimester.
Many women have never seen an aborted baby spasming in death throws in the 1st trimester because they willfully will not look at the ultrasounds showing it clearly. Deep down they know it's life but want to stay asleep to the evil of it for conveniences sake. Murder isn't a choice and while it is in their body it is its own form tenously only attached through a placenta which is an organ it grew. Murder is never right.
It is also not needed to abort a child to save the moms life. I'm sure there's one rare exception but most of the time delivering the baby saves the life of both. C section is done.
If you look at ultrasounds of abortions or wanted babies you cannot unlook and if it doesn't effect that person they might be a psychopath.
Not saying you are one, as i dont know how much research or looking you have done but for some reason I felt I needed to comment on this. Maybe it will spark a thought for someone. I tried for 20 years and 7 rounds of grueling ivf. I've read thousands of papers and seen hundreds of ultrasounds. I know the heart ache of a lost child at 4 weeks and 6 weeks and 8 weeks and the joy from my firstborn this year at 42. When you want that life you can feel it's presence. It effects every part of your body and communicates with your body and you feel its loss for days and weeks and years. For a women to willingly put herself into that kind of trauma and to be the cause of it...it breaks my heart for them even if they do not understand what they did was wrong. But many who did an abortion deeply regretted it right after and turned them prolife. It's innate shame they did something wrong even if they don't know why. The body knew.
Babies are a gift. Struggling with infertility you realize just how tenuous and amazing it all is. Most babies die naturally before a women even gets a period. More than most women know. If any one thing goes wrong in the cycle process that life isn't happening. They teach us procreation is easy but in reality healthy couples in their fertile years between 18 and 28 only have a 25% chance of conception. It lowers every year after that until its less than 5% chance to even conceive in your 40s. That isn't even the % chance that baby implants which is lower. And the % chance that baby lives to a heartbeat. Every baby has passed insurmountable odds to be a gift. It shouldn't be discarded like trash.
Love your posts though!
I've never met any like that either. A lot of Democrats I've had discussions with tend to agree that if the baby can survive outside the womb even with lots of medical intervention, that abortions shouldn't happen after that unless the pregnancy is directly threatening the mother's life. This period of viability of a baby outside the womb is usually about 24 weeks for any sort of good survivability. That's around the end of the second trimester. The large majority of abortions happen within the first trimester.
Well said anon.