Beautifully said. Here is where my compassion is stirred up. Most of us have not been even aquatinted with the kind of suffering that almost all of humanity has already experienced.
If the days ahead are just like Jesus warned, so many of our fellow Christians having only prepared to be rescued, will be so tested and likely suffer the coming plagues the worst, even to death. By clinging to this false doctrine they are headed for spiritual warfare while being totally unprepared for the physical discomfort. Notice that verse about adding something doesn't say they will lose the Kingdom, but they will suffer the plagues. This coming from Jesus isn't just a warning, it's prophecy. And I can see how that prophecy will be fulfilled.
I'm just looking around like a Israelite slave, freed from bondage (thru Christ), excited for the promised land. But I know how they behaved in the wilderness back in the Exodus story. But if we prepare for the journey, maybe it won't take us 40 this time. (Actually we only have a few years to get straightened out this time).
It’s amazing how people will interpret the Bible the way they want to, to support the Q movement. So now the Q doctrine is what’s valid and not the Bible.
However everybody has the right to their own opinion in their own interpretation so carry-on friends.
Right but then you’re coming into Interpretation. And out of the billions and billions of people throughout the years, not one person is going to interpret it exactly the same way another person does. We have to trust in God, to strengthen our hearts and our minds to know what that truth is. It’s only between the Lord, and that one human being, and their belief system that their salvation will be shown true. There will be many people who go to church every week, who seem like good people, that will never make it into heaven. And there will be some people who don’t go to church at all, but read their Bibles at home every day, that will enter in. Only the Lord knows the true State of a man’s heart. And that Will not be revealed until we meet him face-to-face.
Wow. I didn't know there was Q doctrine. Honestly I think there's a lot more to this community than Q. I never got into that stuff much. I'm pro-Q because of the meta impact of whatever Q was. It clearly inspired a great awakening. In that way, it's amazing.
One of the responses to your post was A reference of the rapture being liking to the great awakening instead. That’s what I was referring to. Perhaps I should’ve replied to that person directly. It’s just that this is the second day now that you are peddling your thoughts regarding the rapture. And you have every right to. I just find it interesting, that you feel the need to espouse your theology regarding that specific topic on a Q forum. However… We still have free speech so like I said carry-on.
Count it as a compliment. I might peddle my thoughts at PDW too but I chose GAW because I find this crowd to be a little more engaging on esoteric topics.
It's not quite off topic though. I mean there's even a "scripture" flare. And I think there needs to be a great awakening within the church.
I believe there should be a great awakening in the church as well. However I don’t think the rapture is a key part of salvation.
Obviously the main thing is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that the father the son and the Holy Spirit are the Hunt holy trinity.
There are so many topics that are gray areas that people can interpret themselves, build churches on, and argue about.
I believe in the rapture, and if it happens then great I’m excited that will be a wonderful experience. But if it doesn’t happen in my lifetime, I’ll still be absent from the body and be present with the lord. So the end result is still the same. I get to spend eternity in heaven.
Quite frankly the topic of the rapture has been a hot topic for a very long time. Pre, mid, post, tribulation. I am not a theologian, but I can say for sure that I have hope in my salvation, and in Christ. Wouldn’t it be fantastic to be the generation that’s caught up in the sky with the Lord? Yeah I think so.
Theologians have been discussing this for so many years now, to be quite honest, nobody really knows for sure. My faith is in Christ, and I am hopeful that I might be taken up in the sky. But that would just be a huge bonus on top of the fact that I’m already saved from all of my sins. What a glorious God that we serve.
My only question is this. Why would those of us who accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, have to endure seven years of the most grueling time on the planet. What is the point of being a Christian? Why would he not remove his church from such atrocities. And what about the thousand witnesses. That are supposed to be witnessing during that time.
I’m sure I could spend hours digging into all this and trying to challenge your thought process. But it’s clear you’ve already made up your mind, and I really don’t wanna waste my time on somebody who’s already decided.
I’ve already decided as well. So I guess I’ll see you here, there, or in the air.!
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I think you should read my reply to someone else. About how my compassion for my fellow Christians is what is going on here.
Also I wanted to apologize if I seemed rude or disrespectful with my reply, I read back through it and it did seem a little bit short. So I apologize for that. I will read through what you had to say.
No worries. And honestly I don't mind when debates get a little hot. I mean I'm out here telling people that rapture is false doctrine... I believe this message is important enough if I have to take some abuse, no big deal.
Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say salvation is dependent t on believing in any trinity.
Roman's 10:9 confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved.
10: for with the mouth confession is made unto salvation and with the heart believing unto righteousness.
I agree. The "trinity" is another doctrine of the world that creeps into Christianity. Christians are easily pushed into false doctrine because we earnestly do not want to be seen as denying our lord and savior. Yes God is God the Father, Jesus, the Word (and the son of God) and the Holy Spirit but it is not a trio, they are ONE.
That is correct statement. However it’s important to know that the three are one. Jesus is God! If you don’t believe that, what are you base your salvation on?
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV
I posted the link to the post from yesterday if you want to read our debate. I'm not sure which side you're arguing with this quote. I love these verses since they clearly show that being caught up with the Lord happens after the dead in Christ are resurrected. So you cannot insert a pre-trib rapture into Revelations. Since Rev20 describes the "First resurrection" including those who refuse the beast.
Matthew 27 KJV 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
It depends on whether Moses or Elijah were dead when they were caught up, but this here ^^ was one of the first resurrections.
This is a very interesting part of the gospels. But it's clearly not passing the test defined in the book of Revelations. Rev 20 defines the first resurrection. Whatever happened back then was not what Jesus calls the "First".
So Jesus wasn't resurrected? Obviously, the "first" resurrection in the tribulation is the first resurrection of the tribulation. It's called rightly dividing the word.
Well let's remember that The book of Revelations is a very intentional prophecy being shown and dictated to John many years after the events you are suggesting satisfy his "prophecy".
Maybe he wasn't wasting papyrus to explain the obvious. 😁
Revelation 2 KJV 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
A crown.
Revelation 3 KJV 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Clothed in white rainment.
Revelation 4 KJV 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Already in Heaven before any seals are opened. 24 Elders? Most likely the 12 tribes of Israel (Old Testament Saints) and the 12 Apostles.
Revelation 1 KJV 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
In the Spirit (taken out of his body) on the Lord's day (in the timeline of the Day of the Lord, the tribulation) heard a voice behind him (it happened in the past) of a trumpet (calling the church home.)
Revelation 4 KJV 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
A door already opened into Heaven, John is on earth in the tribulation time (being shown the vision.)
Let me know if you have any questions. There is a LOT more. The bride of the Lamb, who sits in Judgement with Christ, the Mercy Seat Judgement, begin to wean yourself off of what the apostate churches have been teaching. This is a very, very good place to get started on the Truth if you want to get DEEP into it.
Revelation 3 KJV 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The only church in the entire church age to be found completely without fault. The church of Philadelphia. When you begin to understand that God does not see you, He only sees Christ, we are cloaked within His Body, you will begin to understand the GREAT THINGS He has in store for those who believe in Him. No others are called KINGS and PRIESTS. Go look, tribulation saints are only PRIESTS.
Another thing no one seems to understand, the beginning of the tribulation only comes after the Holy Spirit is taken up with the church (He Who restraineth.)
2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Plus, the SOLE PURPOSE of the tribulation is the restoration of the nation of Israel, as told in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and many other prophecies. The time of Jacob's Trouble. They can have it, me, I'm going up to the marriage supper. See ya.
This is the creation of doctrine. I think these verses deserve deep study but we should not latch on to theories that draw a curse upon us as declared in verse 18 above. Adding a pre-trib rapture to this book is asking for trouble.
We're not given license to invent an enormous end times event that Jesus never declares. If he says we will be saved from the hour of temptation then we will be. But to leap to a special rescue because the word church is not used later, well it's strange.
I certainly don't have all of this book understood and I love testing people's theories. I just don't want theories that come with a curse for being wrong. Especially when Rev 20 is so clear and plain to read about the First resurrection. (The dead in Christ must go first before those who are alive.)
While reading all the above comments I was trying to figure out how to say the exact words you said. This right here is what it’s about. I wish I could upvote you 1000x and send you to the top.
Unaffected? Nobody is unaffected. Oblivious maybe. The reason we endure and know that the Power of God is there to see us through is because we are affected.
I agree, I’ve read over and over the New Testament but do not see for certain this “rapture”. I guess I look at it this way, if that were to happen then great, but I’d rather be prepared to endure tribulation rather than not be prepared!
GOD is with Us! He says “watch”, be prepared, know the signs. Persecution is to come. We can’t assume we won’t go through the trib if it’s during our time..
Look into amillennial or postmillenial eschatology. The idea of a “rapture” as seen in dispensational premillennialism has only been around for 150 years or so…
Pardon me for being late to the party, I was "off" yesterday.
Fat_Moco [S] 2 points 1 day ago +2 / -0 And if we remember the recently, miraculously freed Israelites in the wilderness, they were losing their faith quickly when things got tough. Some chose to create idols. We should not be surprised if such things happen again from within the church.
Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the coming of the Lord or not? Eternally secure? I can go fetch some scriptures if needed.
Let's face it, the church has adopted pegan rituals and false doctrines which will have to be forgotten before the Kingdom.
Yes, at satan's seat, they most certainly have. I'm not naming names.
(See Joel). Actually I think I should have said see Hosea. But both make references to the wilderness time before the Kingdom.
For the nation of Israel. They are taken into captivity again, Christ returns and leads them home.
Where in Revelations does it say "church" after chapter 5? Not again until chapter 19.
I intend to keep reading and studying not because I have any worry about my own salvation. But because I want to be used however God wants to use me in bringing about his kingdom. And when I look at the scriptures I see Jesus warning us of severe tests of faith in the coming times. I don't see him saying that his warnings are just for the Jews or the unbeliever.
Actually. Consider them though. When the beast rises, some of them will reject the beast just from natural disgust for tyranny and degeneracy. And we are going to have a greater role in leading them to Christ. But not if we're unprepared. And certainly not if we're floating around in the clouds.
And we are going to have a greater role in leading them to Christ.
Exactly
Revelation 1 KJV 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the -->prince of the kings of the earth.<-- Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Very first chapter in Revelation, already in Heaven, before any seals are broken, are those washed in the blood of Christ. This is very specific and it can only be the church, the body of Christ.
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
We are made KINGS and PRIESTS. To RULE and to TEACH. We sit in judgement of the angels, right? We are given cities to rule over, right? Flesh makes it through to the Millennial, when satan is let out of the pit at the end of the thousand years, he deceives the nations again, gathering them against the saints. We are ONE FLESH with Christ after the marriage supper, we will have the mind of Christ, this is for the purpose of us leading unbelievers to their salvation during the thousand years.
(bonus study - satan is chained in the pit for a the thousand years for one reason; it takes away the human excuse that it is satan's fault that we sin.)
Understand something else, there are angels among us now. Some as unseen spirits, some may be manifested in the flesh, maybe they can switch back and forth. This is well known (unfortunately, there are also demonic spirits.) The believers in Christ are the angels of the millennial. He will be resting during this 7th Day/ 7,000th year period, we will be the ones ministering during this time (and probably forever) with the King of Kings as our Prince.
Lots of assumptions here. Why wouldn't Jesus just include the rapture in the timeline he taught? Instead he teaches a timeline that makes a pre-trib rapture impossible. It's his own prophecy. You're inadvertently suggesting that he both failed to mentioned it and warned us not to add anything to his prophecy, but at the same time expects us to stitch together vague clues? And for what. What purpose do we serve the Kingdom by being absent when the unsaved need us most? During the testing of the world in tribulations.
Matthew 24 KJV 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This is the "catching up" of the church. This is not Christ coming down to Earth, defeating Gog and Magog, restoring Israel and setting up the Millennial Kingdom.
What purpose do we serve the Kingdom by being absent when the unsaved need us most? During the testing of the world in tribulations.
The people of Israel require signs. God is going to give them signs. He doesn't need our help casting the stars of Heaven down to Earth. They'll get the message. Now once they believe, after the tribulation, with the New Testament being an entirely foreign book to them, guess who shows them the Way?
I mean he did not include it in Revelations, the book which he does include a curse for adding things to.
The "one shall be taken, one left behind" verses are more consistent with his teaching about the wheat and the tares. Rapturists are misusing those verses to promote their theory. In both Mathew and Luke those verses are connected in context to acts of judgement, the flood and the destruction of Sodom. Those being taken are not the ones being rescued. The ones being rescued are actually told to flee and they will be protected. That is consistent with Jesus's prophecy. He says woe to those who are in Judea, they should run for the mountains. He says you don't even have time to pack. Yet, we're supposed to say no that's just for the jews, see they're told to pray their flight is not on the sabbath. But aren't we supposed to be keeping the commandments which say to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? We have layers of false doctrine confusing the church today.
I think the sabbath will be restored by the church during the tribulations... but that's a whole other discussion. short version, sun worship will not be brought into the kingdom.
Oh yeah... gog and magog are destroyed at the end of the 1000 years of satan's lockup. that is also clearly said in Revelations.
I mean he did not include it in Revelations, the book which he does include a curse for adding things to.
He did include it and the book also curses you for removing words, which is what you are doing. I add nothing and I know that the scripture in Rev 20, which you are misinterpreting as a general resurrection, is talking about the combined rapture of the church and the tribulation saints. Notice how it proceeds the marriage of the bride and Christ's return with His saints.
Revelation 19 KJV 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
How did the "much" people get into Heaven, if there hasn't been a resurrection yet?
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Who is the bride of Christ?
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
That this does not follow a chronological order is easily understood. Chapter 19 is John's perspective from Earth as he "saw the Heavens open." Chapter 20 is the same thing seen from the perspective of Heaven, "I saw a throne." What I interpret "this is the first resurrection" to mean is that it came in stages (explain the harvest in Chapter 13, which is the "gleaning" of the tribulation saints. Explain the souls under the altar, receiving white rainment in Chapter 7. Explain the virgins in Chapter 14.) The purpose of this statement is more to clarify that the "rest of the dead" will not rise for a thousand years, in my opinion. Don't get stuck on one verse and expect it to answer all questions.
Yet, we're supposed to say no that's just for the jews, see they're told to pray their flight is not on the sabbath.
What do you believe that "rightly dividing the Word" means? There is no doubt that there are separate dispensations and you just proved it. Am I in Judea? Why do I care if it is the sabbath, I've been told to not follow the old law, my salvation comes through the Work of Jesus Christ alone. Not of my work. Don't appoint yourself to the wrath, it's your choice, you can believe in Christ alone or you can believe that we have to work to be saved, a people in which Paul curses because it is impossible to be saved by works, no one is this perfect except Christ.
I think the sabbath will be restored by the church during the tribulations... but that's a whole other discussion.
Three new entities, new heavens, new Earth and new Jerusalem. New Heavens are for the gentiles, new Earth is for the nation of Israel (earthly promise) and the New Jerusalem is for the church (there is no temple within because God is the temple.) See if the scriptures do not tell you exactly this. The sabbath laws and dietary laws do return but only to Israel on the Earth (see Ezekiel 40-48 for details.)
Oh yeah... gog and magog are destroyed at the end of the 1000 years of satan's lockup
You are correct, I was making haste this morning, I meant to say when Christ returns and destroys the nations that come up against Israel after the tribulations.
The sabbath is established in the creation week, and God's feasts are established by God as feasts. Jews made a mess of their covenant. What law did Cane violate? God's law was always present and always will be. There is no point in fooling ourselves about this. I am not saying that one must do this or that for salvation. But salvation is not the finish line. God has a purpose for you beyond living in paradise.
If pre-trip rapture were Jesus's plan then he could plainly state it. I'm not taking anything away from his prophecy. Not everything is meant to play out in chronological order - but some things are definitely put in a timeline position. The seals and trumpets give order but not time of occurrence. You just cannot have another resurrection before the one in Rev 20. So there can be many ways to analyze Rev19 but you can rule out that it implies an enormous rapture event without Jesus directly mentioning it.
I went back and read Rev19 again. My attention is drawn to the beginning lines of chapters 19 and 18. So to get the full picture of what's going on we should look at 17, 18 and 19. In short, wrath is poured out upon Babylon and Babylon is fallen, is fallen.
Those opening lines give some order of events. "And after these things..." So Babylon is destroyed under the wrath of judgement before the "marriage supper of the Lamb".
And we saw that those who took part in the first resurrection are present in the kingdom before the wrath (Rev15) "standing on the sea of glass mixed with fire".
Obviously the "first resurrection of Rev20" is an event that happens before the wrath and before Babylon is fallen and before the marriage supper of the Lamb. It all works in order. There is no need for a rapture before the first resurrection.
We don't know how long after we enter into the kingdom will the marriage supper be. Kingdom time is going to be amazing for sure.
OK - I know this issue can be decisive. We could all pray for Gods leading, and for Revival. We can all read and pray for the spirit to teach us. I pray that all if my Frens are, or become saved.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 KJV Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Sounds like the woman in the wilderness to me. From Hosea. I don't agree with those who claim the woman is only Jews/Israel.
We are not appointed to wrath. But we do seem to be confused about the wrath of God described in Revelations. It's not the tribulations and plagues that happen before the Kingdom.
This is just an observation. But I find it interesting when an "hour" is mentioned. Like the great city of Babylon which is destroyed in an hour. We will celebrate that hour from within the Kingdom according to Revelations. I forget which chapter right now.
Sounds like the woman in the wilderness to me. From Hosea. I don't agree with those who claim the woman is only Jews/Israel.
You don't have to wonder.
1 Thessalonians KJV 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not appointed to wrath. But we do seem to be confused about the wrath of God described in Revelations. It's not the tribulations and plagues that happen before the Kingdom.
It most certainly is. Once the seals are broken on the prophecy of the end (which is exactly what Michael called it in the Book of Daniel) this is the wrath. I don't know about you but when the 4 horsemen ride, I wanna be elsewhere.
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Wrath happens after the Kingdom is established and we are with God and singing praises for this judgement.
I love the King James. And the New King James is much more readable (with updated English, not all the 'goeth' and such.
I'll probably upset even more people if I say to stay away from any. So here goes. I don't really trust NIV, still can be interesting to have one around though.
Rapture doctrine was invented by the jesuits and the anti christ is the papacy (every pope, the office of the pope itself) and the crusades were the saints of the Lord being martyrd.
Well I watched it. Great production quality but I get a strong 'fake news' vibe from it. They hype the wedding theme as if it's a novel discovery unlocking some kind of mystery. But wedding themes are very common throughout prophecy and the biblical story of reconciliation. It's kind of strange for them to act like it's a huge earth shattering fresh detail. Since it's the most common symbol of the reunion. And wedding traditions have always kept traditions that symbolize becoming one with God.
They think that the tradition of carrying the bride can be likened to their imagination of a rapture. But it is really just a celebratory gathering of the wedding party. Has zero evidence of some kind of rescue before tribulations.
They never actually quote any of the scripture that makes the pre-trib rapture impossible. (Like Rev20)
ah. This warning is about specifically this book. the Revelation of Jesus given to John. I see no pre-trib rapture in this book and I think it is dangerous to add it.
Yeah DO NOT trust the Vatican. satanic is appropriate description
Forest / Trees
One's belief in rapture or not doesn't have any effect on one's salvation.
Heck, my soul was raptured/captured the moment Christ entered my heart.
Nobody is suggesting that believing a false doctrine is contingent for salvation.
Jesus did seem to have concerns about people being deceived though. So it appears your faith will be tested.
59 yrs of testing, brother.
Some get the flat track, I got the steeplechase.
I am alive by Grace and Grace alone.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. Romans 8:18 ESV
All I've ever known is pain, loss and tragedy. I may not always be happy, but I am joyful.
Beautifully said. Here is where my compassion is stirred up. Most of us have not been even aquatinted with the kind of suffering that almost all of humanity has already experienced.
If the days ahead are just like Jesus warned, so many of our fellow Christians having only prepared to be rescued, will be so tested and likely suffer the coming plagues the worst, even to death. By clinging to this false doctrine they are headed for spiritual warfare while being totally unprepared for the physical discomfort. Notice that verse about adding something doesn't say they will lose the Kingdom, but they will suffer the plagues. This coming from Jesus isn't just a warning, it's prophecy. And I can see how that prophecy will be fulfilled.
Thanks.
Couldn't get out of bed today, as it sometimes seems unsurmountable. I did it.
I try to accomplish just one thing a day, if I'm lucky.
I'll be fine.
My head feels lime its wrapped in electric barbed wire most of the time.
I'm fine.
Roman's 12:12 is good.
Thought i was the only one.
Well this is why we love Jesus.
I'm just looking around like a Israelite slave, freed from bondage (thru Christ), excited for the promised land. But I know how they behaved in the wilderness back in the Exodus story. But if we prepare for the journey, maybe it won't take us 40 this time. (Actually we only have a few years to get straightened out this time).
"Actually we only have a few years to get straightened out this time"
Even Jesus daily only the Father knows the time.
Thanks for the banter, fren. Head hurts,. So sorry.
God bless and it's awesome to know that we are brothers in Christ for eternity. Amen!
I got the same package sir. Steeple chase and constant fight. But I always win.
I also consider myself to be indestructible after all these years.
Armor is dented, but it's burnished anew daily.
Hang in there, my brother.
It’s amazing how people will interpret the Bible the way they want to, to support the Q movement. So now the Q doctrine is what’s valid and not the Bible.
However everybody has the right to their own opinion in their own interpretation so carry-on friends.
Nobody has a right to their own opinion when it comes to the rightly divided Word of God.
Think what want because people always do. But from God's point of view when you contradict His Word it isn't even classified as thinking.
Learn to rightly divide the word of truth. Study.
Right but then you’re coming into Interpretation. And out of the billions and billions of people throughout the years, not one person is going to interpret it exactly the same way another person does. We have to trust in God, to strengthen our hearts and our minds to know what that truth is. It’s only between the Lord, and that one human being, and their belief system that their salvation will be shown true. There will be many people who go to church every week, who seem like good people, that will never make it into heaven. And there will be some people who don’t go to church at all, but read their Bibles at home every day, that will enter in. Only the Lord knows the true State of a man’s heart. And that Will not be revealed until we meet him face-to-face.
There are principles to how the Word interprets itself.
I recommend finding a class called Walking in God's Power. That is what it instructs a person to do. How rightly divide the word of God.
Wow. I didn't know there was Q doctrine. Honestly I think there's a lot more to this community than Q. I never got into that stuff much. I'm pro-Q because of the meta impact of whatever Q was. It clearly inspired a great awakening. In that way, it's amazing.
One of the responses to your post was A reference of the rapture being liking to the great awakening instead. That’s what I was referring to. Perhaps I should’ve replied to that person directly. It’s just that this is the second day now that you are peddling your thoughts regarding the rapture. And you have every right to. I just find it interesting, that you feel the need to espouse your theology regarding that specific topic on a Q forum. However… We still have free speech so like I said carry-on.
Count it as a compliment. I might peddle my thoughts at PDW too but I chose GAW because I find this crowd to be a little more engaging on esoteric topics.
It's not quite off topic though. I mean there's even a "scripture" flare. And I think there needs to be a great awakening within the church.
I believe there should be a great awakening in the church as well. However I don’t think the rapture is a key part of salvation.
Obviously the main thing is believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that the father the son and the Holy Spirit are the Hunt holy trinity.
There are so many topics that are gray areas that people can interpret themselves, build churches on, and argue about.
I believe in the rapture, and if it happens then great I’m excited that will be a wonderful experience. But if it doesn’t happen in my lifetime, I’ll still be absent from the body and be present with the lord. So the end result is still the same. I get to spend eternity in heaven.
Quite frankly the topic of the rapture has been a hot topic for a very long time. Pre, mid, post, tribulation. I am not a theologian, but I can say for sure that I have hope in my salvation, and in Christ. Wouldn’t it be fantastic to be the generation that’s caught up in the sky with the Lord? Yeah I think so.
Theologians have been discussing this for so many years now, to be quite honest, nobody really knows for sure. My faith is in Christ, and I am hopeful that I might be taken up in the sky. But that would just be a huge bonus on top of the fact that I’m already saved from all of my sins. What a glorious God that we serve.
My only question is this. Why would those of us who accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, have to endure seven years of the most grueling time on the planet. What is the point of being a Christian? Why would he not remove his church from such atrocities. And what about the thousand witnesses. That are supposed to be witnessing during that time.
I’m sure I could spend hours digging into all this and trying to challenge your thought process. But it’s clear you’ve already made up your mind, and I really don’t wanna waste my time on somebody who’s already decided.
I’ve already decided as well. So I guess I’ll see you here, there, or in the air.!
God bless you and have a great night.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I think you should read my reply to someone else. About how my compassion for my fellow Christians is what is going on here.
Also I wanted to apologize if I seemed rude or disrespectful with my reply, I read back through it and it did seem a little bit short. So I apologize for that. I will read through what you had to say.
No worries. And honestly I don't mind when debates get a little hot. I mean I'm out here telling people that rapture is false doctrine... I believe this message is important enough if I have to take some abuse, no big deal.
Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say salvation is dependent t on believing in any trinity.
Roman's 10:9 confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved. 10: for with the mouth confession is made unto salvation and with the heart believing unto righteousness.
I agree. The "trinity" is another doctrine of the world that creeps into Christianity. Christians are easily pushed into false doctrine because we earnestly do not want to be seen as denying our lord and savior. Yes God is God the Father, Jesus, the Word (and the son of God) and the Holy Spirit but it is not a trio, they are ONE.
The cleansing of the church is going to be 'wild'
Christ was one in purpose with His Father. He always did the Fathers will.
That is correct statement. However it’s important to know that the three are one. Jesus is God! If you don’t believe that, what are you base your salvation on?
Hmmmm. Do you speak in tongues?
link to yesterday's debate:
https://greatawakening.win/p/15HImDfGQW/i-dont-know-who-this-is-for-but-/
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” I Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV
Music to my heart. Thanks for actually quoting the Word. No arguing there for anyone v
I posted the link to the post from yesterday if you want to read our debate. I'm not sure which side you're arguing with this quote. I love these verses since they clearly show that being caught up with the Lord happens after the dead in Christ are resurrected. So you cannot insert a pre-trib rapture into Revelations. Since Rev20 describes the "First resurrection" including those who refuse the beast.
Resurrection - Rapture. Here is where we want to start our study.
Matthew 27 KJV 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
It depends on whether Moses or Elijah were dead when they were caught up, but this here ^^ was one of the first resurrections.
Visions
This is a very interesting part of the gospels. But it's clearly not passing the test defined in the book of Revelations. Rev 20 defines the first resurrection. Whatever happened back then was not what Jesus calls the "First".
I'll trust Him.
So Jesus wasn't resurrected? Obviously, the "first" resurrection in the tribulation is the first resurrection of the tribulation. It's called rightly dividing the word.
Andy 45. U live in flag staff?
Nope. I don't live in Alexandria either.
Lol
Well let's remember that The book of Revelations is a very intentional prophecy being shown and dictated to John many years after the events you are suggesting satisfy his "prophecy".
Maybe he wasn't wasting papyrus to explain the obvious. 😁
He was the first among his brethren.
Revelation 2 KJV 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
A crown.
Revelation 3 KJV 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Clothed in white rainment.
Revelation 4 KJV 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Already in Heaven before any seals are opened. 24 Elders? Most likely the 12 tribes of Israel (Old Testament Saints) and the 12 Apostles.
Revelation 1 KJV 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
In the Spirit (taken out of his body) on the Lord's day (in the timeline of the Day of the Lord, the tribulation) heard a voice behind him (it happened in the past) of a trumpet (calling the church home.)
Revelation 4 KJV 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
A door already opened into Heaven, John is on earth in the tribulation time (being shown the vision.)
Let me know if you have any questions. There is a LOT more. The bride of the Lamb, who sits in Judgement with Christ, the Mercy Seat Judgement, begin to wean yourself off of what the apostate churches have been teaching. This is a very, very good place to get started on the Truth if you want to get DEEP into it.
https://www.baytallah.com/books/Dispensational-Truth-Clarence-Larkin.pdf
Revelation 3 KJV 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The only church in the entire church age to be found completely without fault. The church of Philadelphia. When you begin to understand that God does not see you, He only sees Christ, we are cloaked within His Body, you will begin to understand the GREAT THINGS He has in store for those who believe in Him. No others are called KINGS and PRIESTS. Go look, tribulation saints are only PRIESTS.
Another thing no one seems to understand, the beginning of the tribulation only comes after the Holy Spirit is taken up with the church (He Who restraineth.)
2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Plus, the SOLE PURPOSE of the tribulation is the restoration of the nation of Israel, as told in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and many other prophecies. The time of Jacob's Trouble. They can have it, me, I'm going up to the marriage supper. See ya.
This is the creation of doctrine. I think these verses deserve deep study but we should not latch on to theories that draw a curse upon us as declared in verse 18 above. Adding a pre-trib rapture to this book is asking for trouble.
We're not given license to invent an enormous end times event that Jesus never declares. If he says we will be saved from the hour of temptation then we will be. But to leap to a special rescue because the word church is not used later, well it's strange.
I certainly don't have all of this book understood and I love testing people's theories. I just don't want theories that come with a curse for being wrong. Especially when Rev 20 is so clear and plain to read about the First resurrection. (The dead in Christ must go first before those who are alive.)
I cant believe someone else in here understand this. Pfal?
Pfal?
There is no rapture. Period.
The catching up is one of the ways they describe the resurrection of the dead.
Is what we call the great awakening. And what others call ascension. Hell, even the Bible says Jesus ascended.
It's about WAKING UP and seeing the matrix of control placed over us.
That's why paul keeps saying to "stay awake" and "do not sleep"
And then the Bible equates sleep to death.
This isn't literal death of the body, but the spirit while still alive!
To stay awake is then equal to staying alive.
Alert. Mindful. Fearless. Patient. Loving. Kind. Unaffected by things going on. Staying centered. Aware.
Wearing the armor of God, ie, exhibiting the traits described.
Nice words fren.
👍😉
Yes! 👏 👏 👏
While reading all the above comments I was trying to figure out how to say the exact words you said. This right here is what it’s about. I wish I could upvote you 1000x and send you to the top.
Right on!
Hey, you're awesome. Peace friend.
No need to upvote. You just did!
Unaffected? Nobody is unaffected. Oblivious maybe. The reason we endure and know that the Power of God is there to see us through is because we are affected.
I say that in meaning that regardless of ANYTHING going on externally, you don't let it affect you INTERNALLY.
Is what Jesus talks about with the storms in life, and unstable people.
I agree, I’ve read over and over the New Testament but do not see for certain this “rapture”. I guess I look at it this way, if that were to happen then great, but I’d rather be prepared to endure tribulation rather than not be prepared! GOD is with Us! He says “watch”, be prepared, know the signs. Persecution is to come. We can’t assume we won’t go through the trib if it’s during our time..
Look into amillennial or postmillenial eschatology. The idea of a “rapture” as seen in dispensational premillennialism has only been around for 150 years or so…
Pardon me for being late to the party, I was "off" yesterday.
Fat_Moco [S] 2 points 1 day ago +2 / -0 And if we remember the recently, miraculously freed Israelites in the wilderness, they were losing their faith quickly when things got tough. Some chose to create idols. We should not be surprised if such things happen again from within the church.
Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the coming of the Lord or not? Eternally secure? I can go fetch some scriptures if needed.
Let's face it, the church has adopted pegan rituals and false doctrines which will have to be forgotten before the Kingdom.
Yes, at satan's seat, they most certainly have. I'm not naming names.
(See Joel). Actually I think I should have said see Hosea. But both make references to the wilderness time before the Kingdom.
For the nation of Israel. They are taken into captivity again, Christ returns and leads them home.
Where in Revelations does it say "church" after chapter 5? Not again until chapter 19.
I intend to keep reading and studying not because I have any worry about my own salvation. But because I want to be used however God wants to use me in bringing about his kingdom. And when I look at the scriptures I see Jesus warning us of severe tests of faith in the coming times. I don't see him saying that his warnings are just for the Jews or the unbeliever.
Actually. Consider them though. When the beast rises, some of them will reject the beast just from natural disgust for tyranny and degeneracy. And we are going to have a greater role in leading them to Christ. But not if we're unprepared. And certainly not if we're floating around in the clouds.
And we are going to have a greater role in leading them to Christ.
Exactly
Revelation 1 KJV 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the -->prince of the kings of the earth.<-- Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Very first chapter in Revelation, already in Heaven, before any seals are broken, are those washed in the blood of Christ. This is very specific and it can only be the church, the body of Christ.
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
We are made KINGS and PRIESTS. To RULE and to TEACH. We sit in judgement of the angels, right? We are given cities to rule over, right? Flesh makes it through to the Millennial, when satan is let out of the pit at the end of the thousand years, he deceives the nations again, gathering them against the saints. We are ONE FLESH with Christ after the marriage supper, we will have the mind of Christ, this is for the purpose of us leading unbelievers to their salvation during the thousand years.
(bonus study - satan is chained in the pit for a the thousand years for one reason; it takes away the human excuse that it is satan's fault that we sin.)
Understand something else, there are angels among us now. Some as unseen spirits, some may be manifested in the flesh, maybe they can switch back and forth. This is well known (unfortunately, there are also demonic spirits.) The believers in Christ are the angels of the millennial. He will be resting during this 7th Day/ 7,000th year period, we will be the ones ministering during this time (and probably forever) with the King of Kings as our Prince.
Lots of assumptions here. Why wouldn't Jesus just include the rapture in the timeline he taught? Instead he teaches a timeline that makes a pre-trib rapture impossible. It's his own prophecy. You're inadvertently suggesting that he both failed to mentioned it and warned us not to add anything to his prophecy, but at the same time expects us to stitch together vague clues? And for what. What purpose do we serve the Kingdom by being absent when the unsaved need us most? During the testing of the world in tribulations.
He did include it -
Matthew 24 KJV 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This is the "catching up" of the church. This is not Christ coming down to Earth, defeating Gog and Magog, restoring Israel and setting up the Millennial Kingdom.
What purpose do we serve the Kingdom by being absent when the unsaved need us most? During the testing of the world in tribulations.
The people of Israel require signs. God is going to give them signs. He doesn't need our help casting the stars of Heaven down to Earth. They'll get the message. Now once they believe, after the tribulation, with the New Testament being an entirely foreign book to them, guess who shows them the Way?
I mean he did not include it in Revelations, the book which he does include a curse for adding things to.
The "one shall be taken, one left behind" verses are more consistent with his teaching about the wheat and the tares. Rapturists are misusing those verses to promote their theory. In both Mathew and Luke those verses are connected in context to acts of judgement, the flood and the destruction of Sodom. Those being taken are not the ones being rescued. The ones being rescued are actually told to flee and they will be protected. That is consistent with Jesus's prophecy. He says woe to those who are in Judea, they should run for the mountains. He says you don't even have time to pack. Yet, we're supposed to say no that's just for the jews, see they're told to pray their flight is not on the sabbath. But aren't we supposed to be keeping the commandments which say to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? We have layers of false doctrine confusing the church today.
I think the sabbath will be restored by the church during the tribulations... but that's a whole other discussion. short version, sun worship will not be brought into the kingdom.
Oh yeah... gog and magog are destroyed at the end of the 1000 years of satan's lockup. that is also clearly said in Revelations.
I mean he did not include it in Revelations, the book which he does include a curse for adding things to.
He did include it and the book also curses you for removing words, which is what you are doing. I add nothing and I know that the scripture in Rev 20, which you are misinterpreting as a general resurrection, is talking about the combined rapture of the church and the tribulation saints. Notice how it proceeds the marriage of the bride and Christ's return with His saints.
Revelation 19 KJV 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
How did the "much" people get into Heaven, if there hasn't been a resurrection yet?
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Who is the bride of Christ?
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
That this does not follow a chronological order is easily understood. Chapter 19 is John's perspective from Earth as he "saw the Heavens open." Chapter 20 is the same thing seen from the perspective of Heaven, "I saw a throne." What I interpret "this is the first resurrection" to mean is that it came in stages (explain the harvest in Chapter 13, which is the "gleaning" of the tribulation saints. Explain the souls under the altar, receiving white rainment in Chapter 7. Explain the virgins in Chapter 14.) The purpose of this statement is more to clarify that the "rest of the dead" will not rise for a thousand years, in my opinion. Don't get stuck on one verse and expect it to answer all questions.
Yet, we're supposed to say no that's just for the jews, see they're told to pray their flight is not on the sabbath.
What do you believe that "rightly dividing the Word" means? There is no doubt that there are separate dispensations and you just proved it. Am I in Judea? Why do I care if it is the sabbath, I've been told to not follow the old law, my salvation comes through the Work of Jesus Christ alone. Not of my work. Don't appoint yourself to the wrath, it's your choice, you can believe in Christ alone or you can believe that we have to work to be saved, a people in which Paul curses because it is impossible to be saved by works, no one is this perfect except Christ.
I think the sabbath will be restored by the church during the tribulations... but that's a whole other discussion.
Three new entities, new heavens, new Earth and new Jerusalem. New Heavens are for the gentiles, new Earth is for the nation of Israel (earthly promise) and the New Jerusalem is for the church (there is no temple within because God is the temple.) See if the scriptures do not tell you exactly this. The sabbath laws and dietary laws do return but only to Israel on the Earth (see Ezekiel 40-48 for details.)
Oh yeah... gog and magog are destroyed at the end of the 1000 years of satan's lockup
You are correct, I was making haste this morning, I meant to say when Christ returns and destroys the nations that come up against Israel after the tribulations.
The sabbath is established in the creation week, and God's feasts are established by God as feasts. Jews made a mess of their covenant. What law did Cane violate? God's law was always present and always will be. There is no point in fooling ourselves about this. I am not saying that one must do this or that for salvation. But salvation is not the finish line. God has a purpose for you beyond living in paradise.
If pre-trip rapture were Jesus's plan then he could plainly state it. I'm not taking anything away from his prophecy. Not everything is meant to play out in chronological order - but some things are definitely put in a timeline position. The seals and trumpets give order but not time of occurrence. You just cannot have another resurrection before the one in Rev 20. So there can be many ways to analyze Rev19 but you can rule out that it implies an enormous rapture event without Jesus directly mentioning it.
I went back and read Rev19 again. My attention is drawn to the beginning lines of chapters 19 and 18. So to get the full picture of what's going on we should look at 17, 18 and 19. In short, wrath is poured out upon Babylon and Babylon is fallen, is fallen.
Those opening lines give some order of events. "And after these things..." So Babylon is destroyed under the wrath of judgement before the "marriage supper of the Lamb".
And we saw that those who took part in the first resurrection are present in the kingdom before the wrath (Rev15) "standing on the sea of glass mixed with fire".
Obviously the "first resurrection of Rev20" is an event that happens before the wrath and before Babylon is fallen and before the marriage supper of the Lamb. It all works in order. There is no need for a rapture before the first resurrection.
We don't know how long after we enter into the kingdom will the marriage supper be. Kingdom time is going to be amazing for sure.
OK - I know this issue can be decisive. We could all pray for Gods leading, and for Revival. We can all read and pray for the spirit to teach us. I pray that all if my Frens are, or become saved.
Spared from the wrath to come. Says this somewhere.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 KJV Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Sounds like the woman in the wilderness to me. From Hosea. I don't agree with those who claim the woman is only Jews/Israel.
We are not appointed to wrath. But we do seem to be confused about the wrath of God described in Revelations. It's not the tribulations and plagues that happen before the Kingdom.
This is just an observation. But I find it interesting when an "hour" is mentioned. Like the great city of Babylon which is destroyed in an hour. We will celebrate that hour from within the Kingdom according to Revelations. I forget which chapter right now.
Sounds like the woman in the wilderness to me. From Hosea. I don't agree with those who claim the woman is only Jews/Israel.
You don't have to wonder.
1 Thessalonians KJV 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not appointed to wrath. But we do seem to be confused about the wrath of God described in Revelations. It's not the tribulations and plagues that happen before the Kingdom.
It most certainly is. Once the seals are broken on the prophecy of the end (which is exactly what Michael called it in the Book of Daniel) this is the wrath. I don't know about you but when the 4 horsemen ride, I wanna be elsewhere.
Rev 15 verses 1-2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Wrath happens after the Kingdom is established and we are with God and singing praises for this judgement.
Yeah. Tribulations comes before the return of Jesus and before the wrath.
Off topic but is there a bible edition you would recommend or would suggest avoiding?
I need to read the Bible.
I love the King James. And the New King James is much more readable (with updated English, not all the 'goeth' and such.
I'll probably upset even more people if I say to stay away from any. So here goes. I don't really trust NIV, still can be interesting to have one around though.
ESV reformation study Bible 🤪
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-1/
"Amen" bothers me
not inclusive enough?
lol. No, ever since I studied Egyptian history and understood their cult system, it's just always bothered me. It feels like a misdirection.
Rapture doctrine was invented by the jesuits and the anti christ is the papacy (every pope, the office of the pope itself) and the crusades were the saints of the Lord being martyrd.
This is how you cut the religious system down.
https://youtu.be/9NvKb_OlkmY
Worth a watch.
Getting a video not available message from YouTube. You wanna summarize?
Let me know what you think after watching.
Well I watched it. Great production quality but I get a strong 'fake news' vibe from it. They hype the wedding theme as if it's a novel discovery unlocking some kind of mystery. But wedding themes are very common throughout prophecy and the biblical story of reconciliation. It's kind of strange for them to act like it's a huge earth shattering fresh detail. Since it's the most common symbol of the reunion. And wedding traditions have always kept traditions that symbolize becoming one with God.
They think that the tradition of carrying the bride can be likened to their imagination of a rapture. But it is really just a celebratory gathering of the wedding party. Has zero evidence of some kind of rescue before tribulations.
They never actually quote any of the scripture that makes the pre-trib rapture impossible. (Like Rev20)
Will do. Probably not tonight though
https://youtu.be/WTtbpcza59o
interesting book. not sure I understand your question though.
ah. This warning is about specifically this book. the Revelation of Jesus given to John. I see no pre-trib rapture in this book and I think it is dangerous to add it.
Yeah DO NOT trust the Vatican. satanic is appropriate description
FirstEnoch.org