I've always felt like people in our movement tend to undervalue and downplay the religious aspects of what's going on. Whether they want to admit it or not, Christianity is on the rise again, and in a big way.
Which is good, since that means God's hand is in all of this, and we all know it's impossible to beat God.
In my heart I testify this is true, and I repent of my racism here and now. I was a racist because of how I saw things and because satan used it as a door into my conduct. I wash it with the Blood of Jesus Christ. Racism be damned. I invite Jesus into my heart.
Some people call it Ascension and I think we are ascending towards our Father, drawing close to how He meant us to be. As our growth rises so does our vibration. Everything in the universe has vibrations and for so long humankind has been held back from our true potential as children of The King because they have kept us in fear, war, hunger, poverty, ignorance and on and on and on.
(A few ideas / concepts to chew on / to consider. See what sticks, and put aside what doesn't. Consider scripture (but not doctrine) when reading.)
"Resurrection" means to pass from death to life,
Physical death is a natural process, where the fruit (the spirit) is harvested from the soil (the flesh) and lives eternally in the eternal spiritual realm.
The death caused by the Fall is spiritual death.
The source of life, both in spirit and in flesh, is God, the Father.
Falling into a state where the heart cannot open to God, cannot connect with God, cannot receive God's light and truth and love freely and naturally is spiritual death.
Spiritual death caused humanity to be derailed from the process of naturally growing into maturity and oneness with God.
If the first human ancestors had maintained their faith in God's word to "not eat" then they would have naturally and automatically grown through the process of maturing their spirits (hearts) to come into complete and perfect oneness with God.
Through disbelief, humanity fell to BELOW the point they were created at, and this opened the spiritual realm of hell.
God's providence for the resurrection of mankind BACK to our original state (before the fall) occurs in three key stages.
Up until Abraham, the providence was simply to return a central person back to the original starting point, where the process of resurrection can actually begin, and the "Word" can be given. Resurrection requires the "Word" because belief is required.
God providence starts from a central person, and expands through a family, then a clan or tribe, then through a people (and ethnic group), through a nation, to the whole world.
From Moses, who came as the fulfillment of Abraham after 400 years of payment of Abraham's spiritual debt (because he failed in his first offering), resurrection could be achieved on the first stage, a formative stage. Israelites believing in God's word through Moses resurrected to this level, and enjoyed a master-servant relationship with God. (Their hearts became capable of that level of relationship.)
From Jesus, believers could achieve resurrection in the growth stage, by believing in the Gospels, and can enjoy a adoptive father - adopted child relationship with God. (Aka we are born of a different lineage - the fallen lineage of Adam and Eve, but through Jesus, we are reborn and adopted into God's lineage, God's direct family, of whom Jesus is the First Born.)
When Christ returns, and reveals all the hidden truths of history and providence, those who believe will be resurrected to the final third stage, growing beyond what Adam and Eve ever achieved, and complete the process of growing into full and complete oneness with God the Father, becoming the second born after Christ, and being able to enjoy a perfect True Father - True Child (no longer adopted) relationship with God, even as Jesus Christ does.
Revival, ascension, etc, are simply other terms that in the end mean 'resurrection' is taking place, where we move away from Satan's realm of death in spirit and in flesh, into God's sovereign realm in spirit and in flesh.
In the second stage, resurrection only takes place spiritually, because the flesh is still under Satan's dominion, because Christ had to sacrifice his own flesh in order to secure our spiritual salvation. When Christ returns, the flesh will also be liberated from Satan's claim, and we will experience full and complete resurrection in spirit AND flesh, as God's true (no longer adopted) children.
Interesting discussion on the meaning of resurrection. Thank you for taking the time to lay all that out.
One thing did jump out at me because it's not explained, and I would like to know your thoughts on it. In what offering did Abraham fail? It cannot be the offering of his son, Isaac, because that was a revealing test God didn't need to bring to a conclusion. This is obvious apart from religious teaching because God never required a human sacrifice from anybody before or since that singular event, and that one didn't even happen because God stopped Abraham from completing it, saying, "now I know your love/devotion/loyalty" (paraphrased, but also proof it was only a test––what we do proves our intentions).
The only other offering was the animal sacrifice Abraham laid out on the ground. He didn't participate in that except to kill the animals and arrange them according to custom. The smoking furnace and the burning torch passing between the pieces was God making a covenant with Himself on behalf of Abraham. This is not as obvious, but it becomes clear from logical assessment within the spiritual logic of the Bible. Everyone in Abraham's time took covenants like that very seriously, and God was making His promise more sure to Abraham's mind by that act. It is noteworthy that Abraham seemed to know instinctively what was happening because he didn't try to walk between the pieces himself, which was normally done in a binding ritual like that.
On a side note, I believe that the new covenant in Christ's blood has nothing to do with the national covenant of Moses in terms of how it works because Jeremiah prophesied exactly how it would work in chapter 31, and he said it would be "not according to the covenant I made with your fathers," which were in context the fathers of the Jews he was speaking to, and you see the idea of incompatibility expanded in the New Testament. I think it actually harkens back to the covenant of Abraham because believing on Jesus (trusting His sacrifice) is how you get in on it, and righteousness is reckoned to us for believing just like it was reckoned to Abraham. Actually it is more than just reckoned for us. Abraham's sin was merely covered, otherwise he would have gone to heaven immediately upon his death and not to the place where righteous people were sent to wait for their final redemption (paradise, where Jesus went first after He died to announce the new situation). The sin of a believer has been eradicated in Christ, and God is perfectly righteous and just to do it because of Jesus' sacrifice of Himself, which also harkens back to the Abrahamic covenant––God doing Himself what man was actually incapable of doing because of spiritual death. When we die as believers we go right to heaven, which wouldn't be possible if any sin was still attached to us. (Of course, this doesn't mean we are free to sin or that when we sin it's okay because sin is gone. It means that we are free from sin in a way that we can overcome it, and under the new covenant God freely gives us the grace––spiritual power from Him––to do that.)
Thanks for the question. Thanks also for laying out some of your views about the covenant between God and us, and the quality of the salvation afford to us through the Cross.
(Apologies for wall of text, btw.)
To give my answer to your question proper weight, I should lay out a few fundamental concepts that I believe will help to contextualize the issue at hand.
First is the principle in the Word that shapes how growth to completion is accomplished in God's creation.
Second is the nature of the ideal of God's creation which form the foundation for all the Father's efforts to restore that ideal after it was lost.
Third is the concept of indemnification, which is what our human responsibility was transmuted to in the Father's providence to restore and resurrect us.
That should provide a good context to address the question of how and what offering Abraham failed in.
One. God created the universe in such manner that all living things pass through a period of time when they grow to reach maturity and completion. In the case of some species of rabbit, for example, the period is about 6 months. After 6 months, they are physically mature, and are able to reproduce. In the case of some plants, they will mature and then seed fully after one season, while others (i.e. ginseng) take 7 years to mature.
In the case of human beings, physically, we can reproduce around 13, 14 years of age, but we really only fully mature physically around 20 or 21 years of age. If Adam and Eve had not fallen, their offspring - any pure child of God - would have matured both physically and spiritually (aka perfection, complete oneness with the Father) at the same time; around 20/21 years of age. So far, only Jesus lived that original design.
For all creatures that maturation process is automatic, as long as they are supplied with the right nutrients, the right environment (warmth) and exercise (action). Likewise our physical body matures automatically with those things. However, the spirit, and our hearts, are created to mature only when we exercises our own responsibility to believe in and embody (action) God's Word (spiritual nutrient), in the presence of God's love (warmth). If we disbelieve, and do not practice to embody the Word, then our spirit cannot grow to maturity. If we cannot experience or access God's love, likewise, spiritual growth stunted.
That maturing or growing period is actually comprised of three sub-periods, each with a distinct character and nature. Remember this. It's important.
Two. The core of God's ideal for his creation is His children: humanity. The design for us, to mature and grow our spirit and our hearts, is the God-centered family. In the family, you have 4 core participants: One, the Father, God. Two, the husband (male), God's son. Three, the wife (female), God's daughter. Four, the child or children, God's "grandchildren" as it were (but also God's children). When a husband and wife have children of their own, they can experience for themselves directly the heart that God has towards them, by loving their own children.
Thus, the family with God at the center is the design for us to experience four core dimensions of God's love: parent's love, spouse's love, children's love, and sibling love. This is key, because what Adam and Eve lost when they fell was their ability to create a family in which God, and God's love, was at the center and fully present. Thus, all children born in such a family are also disconnected from God's love, and are unable to grow to spiritual maturity. Adam and Eve also lost God's Word. God gave them the commandment not to eat the fruit. When they ate the fruit, they lost their ability to receive God's word and believe in it. In the hearts of Adam and Eve, Satan replaced God's word with the Lie (eat).
Because Adam failed to mature fully, he came to be controlled (governed) by the Angel, Lucifer, instead of maturing to become the Lord who had governance OVER Lucifer. He lost his ability to qualify as the Lord over the angels.
Three. By causing Adam to fall, Lucifer 'created' a second unimaginable reality: hell, where God's children became Satan's children, and where they are cut off from God's love and God's word. From the viewpoint of Adam, Adam became a fallen creature. Originally, Adam had only one master and one center: God, the Father. But in believing in and uniting with Satan's word, the Lie, Adam now became the embodiment of both good and evil. Good, innate and inherited from God, but also evil, inherited via relationship with the devil.
Adam failed in his responsibility to unite with God's command, and thus became unable to exercise his natural responsibility to grow. He left his correct position and went in a completely unlawful direction. To return to his original position, and then continue on to grow to completion (oneness with God), Adam and his descendants need to make some condition that God can claim and say to Satan: "Sorry. They have fulfilled their responsibility, so they belong to me, not you." That condition is the key. It's why we have to believe in Jesus and salvation through the cross (that's our small condition of responsibility) in order to access the salvation God offers us. Without that condition, Satan simply claims to God, "they have not fulfilled their responsibility, so they belong to me." and God cannot refuse that, because it's God's principle itself that says we grow to unity with Him via exercising our responsibility.
So, these three things are key to the reason why God had his champions make offerings to him: the offering represents the Word of God, that Adam lost. By making the offering correctly, the anointed person successfully makes the condition of fulfilling the responsibility Adam could not, and thus can come to stand in a place where God can claim that person.
This process unfolds in God's providence through different stages, which is what the scripture describes. That's why the nature of the offering changes.
(Note for future reference: the offering is not the only thing required to restore God's claim over us. We also must embody the Word (which Adam failed to do) and this is done through unity between God's representative and the ones to be restored. This unity symbolizes the unity Adam should have (but which he didn’t) achieved by embodying God's word and achieving governance OVER the angel, Lucifer.)
It should be noted that Jesus Christ is the one who accomplished substantially, spiritually, this embodiment of the Word (meaning He is the Word, but he brought that to perfection by his own efforts and sufferings), and thus gained victory over the fallen angel, thus becoming the author of salvation.
From this view, Jesus himself is the actual model for success in this area (the path each of us must go), but all the representatives chosen by God before Christ came are actually precursors or symbolic representations of Christ that God established to prepare the way. ("So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.")
Prior to Abraham ~ Adam's family and Noah's family
Adam's family
Directly after Adam fell, God worked to have Adam's family restored to him, so that he could bring the Messiah, to give rebirth to them, by having Abel the second son, make an offering. God firstly separated the good and evil in Adam symbolically into the younger son, representing good, and the elder son, representing evil.
Abel made his offering in a manner that pleased God (aka was correct), and this became the condition that Abel united with God's word and fulfilled his providential responsibility, so he could stand as God's representative. Next, Cain (representing Lucifer) had to submit to and unite with him. But Cain murdered him, repeating the Fall where Lucifer murdered Adam spiritually.
Thus, Adam's family (including the 2nd generation) was now lost. Tragically, because Adam's family failed to restore the mistake of Adam, God's providence then had to center on restoring all the mistakes in Adam's family. Thus, Adam and his family became the blueprint for the providence to reverse the effects of the Fall.
To start again, to find a champion to make an offering correctly and who could then stand as God's representative, God worked through 10 generations (10 symbolizing the return to original position) to reset the starting point. After 10 generations, God chose Noah, a righteous man, to make the offering. The offering Noah had to make was the Ark.
Noah's family
Long story short, Noah was successful, and stood as God's representative. However, to have Ham inherit that foundation, and stand as God's representative (like Abel) to Shem (like Cain), the elder brother, Ham had to display complete and unwavering belief in Noah. Sadly, Ham disbelieved in his father, and even convinced his brothers to disbelieve in him "Oh, he is so sinful and shameful, lying there intoxicated!". So, Ham failed to inherit the successful position of Noah, and all God's work in Noah's family, even the 120 year period for the offering of the Ark, was lost. THIS is the reason that Noah cursed Ham when he woke up and realized what Ham had done.
Ham had failed to have unity with his father and inherit the position of God's representative (accordingly, there was no possibility for Shem to unite with Ham to restore the failed relationship between Adam and the Angel, because Ham lost the position of God's representative).
So God had to start all over, and attempt, for the third time, to find and establish a champion who could complete the offering correctly to stand as God's representative, and then have someone in the elder son position (like Cain, or like the Angel Lucifer) submit to and unite with God's representative in the younger son position (like Abel, or like Adam towards Lucifer).
If and when these conditions are met, God has the lawful foundation to say to Satan, this (family, people, nation) are mine. And he can send the Messiah to give rebirth to the offspring of Adam and Eve and restore them back to God's family.
Because God's ideal (which Adam lost) to be restored is the Family, the number 4 x 10 (return to starting point) symbolizes separation from Satan and the fallen situation. Thus, after 400 years from Noah, God found Abraham to become his champion.
Abraham's family
Abraham could thus make the offering at God's instruction after 400 years of separation from Satan.
After a lengthy course of preparing Abraham through all sorts of events (as recorded in scripture) God finally commanded Abraham to make the offering. God commanded 3 different levels of offering: heifer, Sheep + goat, pigeon + dove. The 3 different levels represent restoring the 3 stages of maturing to perfection. Just like the 3 levels in Noah's ark.
Abraham made the offering.
"So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon." Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.
But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land......"
How to understand all this?
Firstly, the cutting in half of the offering symbolize separating the good in Adam from the evil in Adam, and draining out the satanic blood that Adam became home to when he fell.
Abraham did this correctly for stages 3 and 2, but the foundation stage, the pigeon and dove, he failed to do.
Thus, because the offering was not correctly (and symbolically) separated from Satan, God could not claim it. Instead, Satan claimed it, as symbolized by the birds of prey descending.
The problem here is that this was the third attempt by God to have humanity set the right symbolic condition to restore the mistake of Adam. Abel & Cain was the first attempt. Noah, with Ham and Shem, was the second attempt. Abraham was the third attempt. For reasons I won't go into, there is a condition in God's restoration that Satan cannot claim the third attempt.
Thus, even though Abraham failed in the offer, God was able to set up a situation where Abraham did NOT fail in the offering, by sort of creating a ‘legal’ condition that Abraham succeeded and then executing providence to fix up the mistake AFTER the fact.
This is why a) God declared that the Israelites would have to suffer as slaves for 400 years. This is because the 400 years of resetting the starting point that God worked from Noah to Abraham was lost when Abraham failed to do the offering correctly, so it had to be re-established, and b) why later, God had Abraham offer Isaac. If an offering is failed on one level, it can be recovered by making an even greater offering on a new level. Because Abraham failed to complete the (relatively simple) offering of the [heifer, goat + sheep, pigeon + dove], he could only fix that mistake by making a much harder and more difficult offering, which is the offering of Isaac. For Abraham, offering (killing) Isaac was the same as offering (killing) himself.
So, even though Abraham failed in the offering, God established a providence to fix this later, and so, as you have well pointed out, God then proceeded to act AS IF Abraham had succeeded, as evidenced by the smoking firepot and blazing torch, and God completing his covenant with Abraham.
Fleshing out the understanding
There are a few points that round out this understanding of the events described in scripture.
One, Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. If Abraham had been successful in the first offering, then Isaac, when he united with Abraham, would stand in the position of the younger son, Abel, and Ishmael in the position of the elder son, Cain. If they then achieved unity correctly, then the foundation would be set for God to send the Messiah, Jesus, at that time.
Two, in the offering of Isaac, Isaac was old enough to understand that normally, there should be a sheep. For three days (number 3) they journeyed. Can you imagine the agony in Abraham’s heart? What about Isaac? Even when Abraham laid Isaac on the offering altar, Isaac did not flinch. He had complete and perfect faith in his father, Abraham. Thus, Isaac was able to restore the failure of Ham, who failed to believe in his father.
Abraham being willing to offer his son set the condition for God to forgive his mistake in the first offering. So Abraham could then truly stand as God’s representative. Accordingly, Isaac, who displayed perfect faith in his father, God’s representative, was able ton fully inherit the position of God’s representative (which Ham could not). Via the angel, God re-iterates his covenant with Abraham’s family.
Now, with Isaac standing in the position of God’s representative, the condition had to be repeated in Isaac’s family, with Jacob inheriting the foundation and standing in the position of Abel, and Esau standing in the position of Cain. How that unfolded is recorded in scripture.
Despite what to human eyes seems strange, Jacob valued God’s blessing above all, and eventually was able to get Esau to submit to him, and unite with him, and so, finally, after the third attempt (Adam’s family, Noah’s family, Abraham/Isaac/Jacob’s family), both the person being successful in the offering (symbolizing Adam fulfilling his responsibility to unite with the Word) and the unity between younger son and elder son (symbolizing Lucifer submitting to Adam) were both successful and completed.
This is, in fact, why and how the family of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob became established by God as the chosen family and root of the chosen people. It's not just some random whim of God. Rather, God has worked very hard and very methodically to establish a foundation he could use to separate out a people to him on which foundation he would bring the Messiah.
After the 400 years of slavery, God later expanded the victorious foundation of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob's family to ethnic group and then nation-state level by having Moses complete the same conditions on a new level, albeit with Moses in the position of Abel and the Israelites as a whole in the position of Cain.
So, to answer your question, Abraham actually failed the first offering of the heifer, goat and sheep, pigeon and doves, but through God’s grace and the foundation of success in the third attempt, God was able to treat Abraham as if he was successful by setting conditions to restore the mistake AFTER the fact (Isaac, Jacob).
I’d like to just make a suggestion. Pray on this. Read scripture, reflect on the explanation written here, and seek God’s voice. (Don't be afraid to put aside for a moment your previous concepts of the matter, just as a mental exercise.)
In my experience, understanding these elements is key to understanding later developments in God’s providence, such as Moses’ course of restoration, as well as the 2000 year history of Israel and even Jesus' three-year ministry. E.g. Why did the Israelites have to journey for 40 years in the desert? Why could only the 2nd generation enter Canaan? Why could Moses not? (Was there a failure?) Why did Jesus do the 40-day fast directly after meeting john the Baptist? Etc. Why was the cross necessary? Why must Jesus return? Why has it taken so long?
(Somewhat like the Q board) in the Bible, we actually have more than we know. The Bible is in fact a record of God’s providence, above and beyond simple moral lessons or how to live. It is actually the record of how God directs his providence to achieve very specific conditions that restore the failure of Adam and his descendants and lay the foundation for establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. We are still very much in the midst of that process now, so understanding the WHY and the HOW is actually very important if we are to fulfill our responsibility and make our offering correctly.
I’m a little breathless. Your reply was like the opening scene of the first Star Wars movie––all that scrolling––but you answered all my questions, and I think I understand your viewpoint. Thank you. I very much appreciate your kindness in taking the time to do that.
I did read it all. It’s a bit different from the normal pathways most people tread to think about God’s actions, but that is not a criticism. My own views are not what you would call mainstream thinking on some points, and that comes from my experience with the Lord as a living reality, His revelation to me, and my own study concerning doctrines that didn’t line up with what the Bible actually says. I don’t like mechanical religion because it’s useless and misses the point of having a family relationship with God, and I don’t like trying to retrofit Mosaic law into the New Covenant because it ruins people’s ability to receive God’s grace. I also don’t like the charts and diagrams of prophecy hounds because most of it is spectacularly wrong. (The evangelical branch of the church is ironically ignorant of the fact that every bit of their ubiquitous belief about the end times is rooted in the deliberately bad exegesis of a single Jesuit priest.)
That sounds kind of negative. I suppose I should be talking about what I do like, but unfortunately I have to go get some rest : ). Thanks again.
I’m a little breathless. Your reply was like the opening scene of the first Star Wars movie
Heheh. That's a picturesque description! Yes, normally I am somewhat hesitant to lay things out in such detail and with that sort of breadth, but your question was so beautifully articulate and crystal clear, it felt to me like there was just the right amount of room to go in the direction I did. So, thanks to you.
It’s a bit different from the normal pathways most people tread to think about God’s actions
Certainly cannot deny that! Yes, quite different. I guess the angle here is digging to find out what principles and spiritual laws operate behind the scenes such that they can explain and unify the vast content of data in the scripture. Paul was very clear about the idea that, at some point, God would lift him (and us) up to a new level of understanding vis-a-vis what's really going on in scripture. (For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.)
It's my conviction and faith that we are at that point in time now. So while God is moving on one hand to expose and destroy the Satanic mechanisms that have ruled the world for so long, at the same time, He is knocking on the door for us to rise to an unprecedented and new understanding of scripture that opens the door to a more profound, living relationship with Him. Personally, I feel the reality of that in the revival of faith - centering on relationship, rather than religion - that is springing up all around the world and which is so fundamentally present in the Great Awakening movement.
" that opens the door..." for example, what are the implications for our own practice of faith if the principle is true that God calls us to make the offering of faith and then on that basis, to achieve the unity of brothers that embodies that faith? How does this manifest in our daily lives?
Jesus quoted scripture when he said, in response to the question "Which commandment is the most important of all?”: Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
We can see that these commandments encapsulate the first offering of faith (to believe in and love - unite with - God) and the second offering of unity between brothers. However, specifically, finding the Abels in our life, and uniting with them, and also finding the Cains in our life, and loving them to bring unity with them, these are two fundamental keys to unlocking an outpouring of blessing and grace, imo.
Dang. Sorry. This was going to be a short response in thank you to your comment. But I must confess, these are the topics that really move me, so.... forgive my over-exuberance, please!
I don’t like mechanical religion because it’s useless and misses the point of having a family relationship with God
"having a family relationship with God"
Wow. What a wonderful and powerful phrase!
When I raised my kids, when they were little, I frequently would ask them "how many people in our family?" And at first, they would answer "4" or "5" or "6" (depending on our numbers), but I would explain "No, we have "5", or "6" or "7". "because we have Heavenly Father first, then there's dad, then mum, then you...."
Because God wants to not just be present in our individual lives, but to be at the very center of our family, and in fact, who loves our family more than the Father?
I think its OK to articulate what you don't like in terms of how certain trends prevail in the pursuit of faith. In being clear about what we don't like, we begin to carve out a clearer understanding and description of what we DO like.
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”
Thanks again for reading and sharing your generous appreciation.
And also, pomp and ceremony attracts gays. I've noticed this. They like robes, costumes, masks, mystique. Anyplace that is, they are. Beginning to think the plain pulpit Baptist church had it right the whole time. Islam maybe too. In the future, costumes and masks need a pyre burning. It all needs to go.
There were religious great awakenings. But they were ultimately characterized by emotional fervor gone unchecked. The masses leave their brains at the door in these kinds of social disruptors, its just the psychological nature of going against the established order. UNLESS the movement is tempered by and led by intellectuals (16th century magisterial Reformation, American Revolution, etc). Otherwise they become mirrors of the godless revolutions of recent centuries.
Reminds me of the times in California Spanish-speaking immigrants would sneer at me, "this not your kone-try". How about no? It is just for Christians and was founded on Christian principles. Not Islamic, not Judaic.
Christian.
Those uncomfortable with this can peacefully leave before it starts getting not peaceful. We're done with you.
I've respected and followed Lance Wallnau for many years. Always appreciated his insights. Though I did stop listening to him regularly in 2020 as he was adamentaly against Q, did not believe in a global cabal, and openly attacked many "conspiracy theories" which have since come true.
The link doesn't work for me, and I had trouble finding it, but I don't need to hear it to know that the all the statements in the post title are true, even the observation about spiritual awakening and political change happening together. You have only to open your eyes to see it. That is not the normal progression, so it can only mean that God has initiated an accelerated program in our generation and that things are going to happen pretty fast.
What link? You should be able to click the video and watch directly.
As for the timing, the first GA took about 70 years until the War of Independence. The second took about 40 until the freeing of the slaves. This one, though its prayer foundation has been going on for decades, has largely surfaced concurrently with the political battle. It seems that time is accelerating.
It didn't work for me, but it doesn't mater in my case. I know about the history of the former awakenings, and I see what's been happening in this one, which is much, much bigger.
I agree that the foundation of prayer was laid long before we saw anything happen. I see the answers to prayers made long ago unfolding before my eyes. "Time accelerating" is actually putting it rather mildly. They stole years trying to get their antichrist installed before the time, and God isn't about to let them get away with it. The approaching turn-around is going to be more awesome than we have to imagination to conceive.
Once being a evangelical Christian, I started researching and seeing the flaws in ALL religious beliefs. I do not put down or insult anyone who does not believe what I do. However, a question that always comes to mind, as there are many, many different beliefs in this world, what makes Christianity right? Maybe the aborigines are right. Or, the Hindus, the Amish. The list goes on and on. Right now, my belief is that we are fighting evil, no matter who is at the base of it. Good versus evil.
At Athens, Paul commended the Athenians for their intense spiritual devotion. They even had a shrine "to an unknown god". He then said that he was proclaiming that unknown God to them.
I do not denigrate anyone with a healthy concept of good v. evil who is fighting for the good. The truth of Christianity is special revelation that explains that good v. evil in greater detail.
If we're comparing religions, then you have a good point.
However, I consider myself a Christian and yet I constantly try to get rid of all "religious" thinking. I am not interested in religion, I am interested in relationship with the God who created everything that exists and his son (Jesus) who died for me, making it possible for me to have relationship with that God (Father).
That relationship - which is ongoing, real and dynamic in my daily life - that is what separates Christianity from other belief systems.
The first constitutional congress ever held was a 2 hour Bible study and prayer feast. They honed in on psalms 35 and that would be the prayer that rang around every colony when declaring independence from England.
This country was absolutely founded on Christian principals. You need to learn your history.
Religion may be flawed but Jesus was not. In fact it was religion that killed Jesus.
Jesus's life, death, and resurrection was prophecied thousands and hundreds of years before his birth. Even the method in which he would be killed was prophecied before crucifixion was even invented.
Read Isaiah 53
But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5 NASB2020
https://bible.com/bible/2692/isa.53.5.NASB2020
Written 750 years before Jesus' birth and our oldest manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, have proven this was not altered in any way.
The good news about all of this is that not only is there a God, but there's a God who loves you more than you can possibly imagine.
Christianity is as perfect as Jesus Christ assuming you define Christianity as actually following Him and His word as opposed to following a bunch of corrupt men's will who twist it for their own reasons.
You sign up by having faith in Jesus Christ as your savior.
God made the world so God makes the rules, and He did. The punishment for sin is death. No man in the entirety of creation outside of Jesus Christ has ever lived a sinless life so we all deserve death.
Evil dies. If you have a problem with that I don't know what to tell you. The Bible is clear that faith in Christ is what saves you, so listening to some guy in a white hat telling you what to do or risk hell isn't required. Point being if you don't repent and have faith in Christ why should he save you? You broke His rules and won't even accept it and apologize and turn from evil. But if you simply ask to be forgiven and believe in him truly and fully you will be saved.
You can't find a single verse in the bible that isn't good or isn't true, because God is good and true because He is God. You don't really get a choice. Choosing not to believe will not save you. Living in denial won't make God go away. Just like ignoring your parents won't change the fact you're being punished for doing something wrong.
I've noticed that people love to argue half the bible. "Well if God is real what's up with x, y, and z? Doesn't sound that great if he sends people to hell!"
No no, if you want to assume God is real and the Bible is his word you have to accept the whole book. That includes that He is good and that going to hell is a punishment for sin. Sin which can only be cleansed through the blood of Jesus Christ, who died to save us despite how little we deserved it. He died a violent and painful death for a bunch of murderers, thieves, rapists, and adulterers. And if they have faith all of them can be saved and will be brought towards good as a result of that faith.
Only bad people go to hell. If you have faith in Christ you will be born anew with goodness in your heart (if it wasn't already there). If not you will go to hell.
The Bible is a book of love and peace. Everything it says is good so people SHOULD do what it says. But God gave us free will, so if they choose not to for their whole lives they can bear the responsibility of their actions. You don't get to complain after the fact that God should have done this or that to prove it to you better and you would have listened. You have everything you need right now and it's up to you to decide what to do with it.
I'm incompatible with the concept of faith. People can have faith there's a teddy-bear suction-cupped to the dark side of one of Jupitor's moons... Doesn't meant there is. So clearly one can have faith in things not true so using it a some reliable mechanism to determine truth is faulty.
That's the thing... Existence is tyranny. I exist, therefore I must play this ridiculous game, I can't just live my life free of judgement of some deity with questionable creation practices.
Free will, huh? You mean that rope God allegedly gives to everyone, including the ones he knows will hang themselves with it for all of eternity? Great guy! Does he give children loaded guns too?
Again, not worthy of my endorsement. I think the Bible is right about some things, but it's not THE TRUTH... I think it has elements of it. Terrible right? For thinking such a thing I should be punished for all eternity.
Every single one of us deserves death for our sins. Jesus Christ died for us so we could live.
I can't make the blind see. Only you can choose to open your heart to the truth. You clearly live with some deep hatred/disdain toward God, based on what the world has led you to believe in life, rather than who and what He actually is. If you do choose to have faith there are very real and apparent effects. And there's nothing to lose choosing to have faith in something greater than yourself or what can be proven completely and absolutely. If you're wrong you'll die and there will be nothing so it won't matter. If you're right you get eternity with your loving creator.
The last thing I'll say is there's way more evidence for God than there is for a teddy bear on one of Jupiter's moons. I came to faith through evidence I deemed enough to make that faith a valid position to hold. Though I already had a strong, spiritual I guess, draw even before I believed so my standard for "convincing enough" evidence may have been lower. It was certainly much higher than some nonsense, random, baseless claim about a teddy bear on the moon, simply reading a book and going "yea alright", or going to a church all my life and never questioning what they say.
Edit: I'd also add that the idea you take nothing on faith and are incompatible with the entire idea itself is, forgive me, but frankly laughable. Everybody has faith in something, it's part of being human. Some are better than others at managing it in the face of concrete evidence. This is true in a completely naturalistic world or in one created by God.
Perhaps you've noticed that death is already here, and is unavoidable. God offers a way out, through Jesus. It's that simple. God's morality is perfect, unaffected by incomplete situational knowledge or bias. He will do what is right.
LOL. Whoever said the War of Independence was primarily religious?
False argument, cos no one says this.
The reality is that the spiritual and religious revival that was the Great Awakenings laid the spiritual foundation for the War of Independence to take place.
Just like a person who has a rebirth experience and then who goes on to accomplish certain things he or she would not have done otherwise.
But, the secularist interprets everything in terms of humanistic perspective, including religion, and cannot even connect to the spiritual dimension or side of reality. They see only half the world, half the universe.
Praise the Lord. Jesus Christ is KING
Truth.
Amen.
AMEN!
Amen
I've always felt like people in our movement tend to undervalue and downplay the religious aspects of what's going on. Whether they want to admit it or not, Christianity is on the rise again, and in a big way.
Which is good, since that means God's hand is in all of this, and we all know it's impossible to beat God.
In my heart I testify this is true, and I repent of my racism here and now. I was a racist because of how I saw things and because satan used it as a door into my conduct. I wash it with the Blood of Jesus Christ. Racism be damned. I invite Jesus into my heart.
We are pure as snow because of God's Grace fren!
We are in Revival.
Some people call it Ascension and I think we are ascending towards our Father, drawing close to how He meant us to be. As our growth rises so does our vibration. Everything in the universe has vibrations and for so long humankind has been held back from our true potential as children of The King because they have kept us in fear, war, hunger, poverty, ignorance and on and on and on.
The best is yet to come! 🙌
(A few ideas / concepts to chew on / to consider. See what sticks, and put aside what doesn't. Consider scripture (but not doctrine) when reading.)
"Resurrection" means to pass from death to life,
Physical death is a natural process, where the fruit (the spirit) is harvested from the soil (the flesh) and lives eternally in the eternal spiritual realm.
The death caused by the Fall is spiritual death.
The source of life, both in spirit and in flesh, is God, the Father.
Falling into a state where the heart cannot open to God, cannot connect with God, cannot receive God's light and truth and love freely and naturally is spiritual death.
Spiritual death caused humanity to be derailed from the process of naturally growing into maturity and oneness with God.
If the first human ancestors had maintained their faith in God's word to "not eat" then they would have naturally and automatically grown through the process of maturing their spirits (hearts) to come into complete and perfect oneness with God.
Through disbelief, humanity fell to BELOW the point they were created at, and this opened the spiritual realm of hell.
God's providence for the resurrection of mankind BACK to our original state (before the fall) occurs in three key stages.
Up until Abraham, the providence was simply to return a central person back to the original starting point, where the process of resurrection can actually begin, and the "Word" can be given. Resurrection requires the "Word" because belief is required.
God providence starts from a central person, and expands through a family, then a clan or tribe, then through a people (and ethnic group), through a nation, to the whole world.
From Moses, who came as the fulfillment of Abraham after 400 years of payment of Abraham's spiritual debt (because he failed in his first offering), resurrection could be achieved on the first stage, a formative stage. Israelites believing in God's word through Moses resurrected to this level, and enjoyed a master-servant relationship with God. (Their hearts became capable of that level of relationship.)
From Jesus, believers could achieve resurrection in the growth stage, by believing in the Gospels, and can enjoy a adoptive father - adopted child relationship with God. (Aka we are born of a different lineage - the fallen lineage of Adam and Eve, but through Jesus, we are reborn and adopted into God's lineage, God's direct family, of whom Jesus is the First Born.)
When Christ returns, and reveals all the hidden truths of history and providence, those who believe will be resurrected to the final third stage, growing beyond what Adam and Eve ever achieved, and complete the process of growing into full and complete oneness with God the Father, becoming the second born after Christ, and being able to enjoy a perfect True Father - True Child (no longer adopted) relationship with God, even as Jesus Christ does.
Revival, ascension, etc, are simply other terms that in the end mean 'resurrection' is taking place, where we move away from Satan's realm of death in spirit and in flesh, into God's sovereign realm in spirit and in flesh.
In the second stage, resurrection only takes place spiritually, because the flesh is still under Satan's dominion, because Christ had to sacrifice his own flesh in order to secure our spiritual salvation. When Christ returns, the flesh will also be liberated from Satan's claim, and we will experience full and complete resurrection in spirit AND flesh, as God's true (no longer adopted) children.
From His Peace to Your Strength.
Beautifully laid out fren! It will be JOYOUS! 🙌
Interesting discussion on the meaning of resurrection. Thank you for taking the time to lay all that out.
One thing did jump out at me because it's not explained, and I would like to know your thoughts on it. In what offering did Abraham fail? It cannot be the offering of his son, Isaac, because that was a revealing test God didn't need to bring to a conclusion. This is obvious apart from religious teaching because God never required a human sacrifice from anybody before or since that singular event, and that one didn't even happen because God stopped Abraham from completing it, saying, "now I know your love/devotion/loyalty" (paraphrased, but also proof it was only a test––what we do proves our intentions).
The only other offering was the animal sacrifice Abraham laid out on the ground. He didn't participate in that except to kill the animals and arrange them according to custom. The smoking furnace and the burning torch passing between the pieces was God making a covenant with Himself on behalf of Abraham. This is not as obvious, but it becomes clear from logical assessment within the spiritual logic of the Bible. Everyone in Abraham's time took covenants like that very seriously, and God was making His promise more sure to Abraham's mind by that act. It is noteworthy that Abraham seemed to know instinctively what was happening because he didn't try to walk between the pieces himself, which was normally done in a binding ritual like that.
On a side note, I believe that the new covenant in Christ's blood has nothing to do with the national covenant of Moses in terms of how it works because Jeremiah prophesied exactly how it would work in chapter 31, and he said it would be "not according to the covenant I made with your fathers," which were in context the fathers of the Jews he was speaking to, and you see the idea of incompatibility expanded in the New Testament. I think it actually harkens back to the covenant of Abraham because believing on Jesus (trusting His sacrifice) is how you get in on it, and righteousness is reckoned to us for believing just like it was reckoned to Abraham. Actually it is more than just reckoned for us. Abraham's sin was merely covered, otherwise he would have gone to heaven immediately upon his death and not to the place where righteous people were sent to wait for their final redemption (paradise, where Jesus went first after He died to announce the new situation). The sin of a believer has been eradicated in Christ, and God is perfectly righteous and just to do it because of Jesus' sacrifice of Himself, which also harkens back to the Abrahamic covenant––God doing Himself what man was actually incapable of doing because of spiritual death. When we die as believers we go right to heaven, which wouldn't be possible if any sin was still attached to us. (Of course, this doesn't mean we are free to sin or that when we sin it's okay because sin is gone. It means that we are free from sin in a way that we can overcome it, and under the new covenant God freely gives us the grace––spiritual power from Him––to do that.)
Thanks for the question. Thanks also for laying out some of your views about the covenant between God and us, and the quality of the salvation afford to us through the Cross.
(Apologies for wall of text, btw.)
To give my answer to your question proper weight, I should lay out a few fundamental concepts that I believe will help to contextualize the issue at hand.
First is the principle in the Word that shapes how growth to completion is accomplished in God's creation.
Second is the nature of the ideal of God's creation which form the foundation for all the Father's efforts to restore that ideal after it was lost.
Third is the concept of indemnification, which is what our human responsibility was transmuted to in the Father's providence to restore and resurrect us.
That should provide a good context to address the question of how and what offering Abraham failed in.
One. God created the universe in such manner that all living things pass through a period of time when they grow to reach maturity and completion. In the case of some species of rabbit, for example, the period is about 6 months. After 6 months, they are physically mature, and are able to reproduce. In the case of some plants, they will mature and then seed fully after one season, while others (i.e. ginseng) take 7 years to mature.
In the case of human beings, physically, we can reproduce around 13, 14 years of age, but we really only fully mature physically around 20 or 21 years of age. If Adam and Eve had not fallen, their offspring - any pure child of God - would have matured both physically and spiritually (aka perfection, complete oneness with the Father) at the same time; around 20/21 years of age. So far, only Jesus lived that original design.
For all creatures that maturation process is automatic, as long as they are supplied with the right nutrients, the right environment (warmth) and exercise (action). Likewise our physical body matures automatically with those things. However, the spirit, and our hearts, are created to mature only when we exercises our own responsibility to believe in and embody (action) God's Word (spiritual nutrient), in the presence of God's love (warmth). If we disbelieve, and do not practice to embody the Word, then our spirit cannot grow to maturity. If we cannot experience or access God's love, likewise, spiritual growth stunted.
That maturing or growing period is actually comprised of three sub-periods, each with a distinct character and nature. Remember this. It's important.
Two. The core of God's ideal for his creation is His children: humanity. The design for us, to mature and grow our spirit and our hearts, is the God-centered family. In the family, you have 4 core participants: One, the Father, God. Two, the husband (male), God's son. Three, the wife (female), God's daughter. Four, the child or children, God's "grandchildren" as it were (but also God's children). When a husband and wife have children of their own, they can experience for themselves directly the heart that God has towards them, by loving their own children.
Thus, the family with God at the center is the design for us to experience four core dimensions of God's love: parent's love, spouse's love, children's love, and sibling love. This is key, because what Adam and Eve lost when they fell was their ability to create a family in which God, and God's love, was at the center and fully present. Thus, all children born in such a family are also disconnected from God's love, and are unable to grow to spiritual maturity. Adam and Eve also lost God's Word. God gave them the commandment not to eat the fruit. When they ate the fruit, they lost their ability to receive God's word and believe in it. In the hearts of Adam and Eve, Satan replaced God's word with the Lie (eat).
Because Adam failed to mature fully, he came to be controlled (governed) by the Angel, Lucifer, instead of maturing to become the Lord who had governance OVER Lucifer. He lost his ability to qualify as the Lord over the angels.
Three. By causing Adam to fall, Lucifer 'created' a second unimaginable reality: hell, where God's children became Satan's children, and where they are cut off from God's love and God's word. From the viewpoint of Adam, Adam became a fallen creature. Originally, Adam had only one master and one center: God, the Father. But in believing in and uniting with Satan's word, the Lie, Adam now became the embodiment of both good and evil. Good, innate and inherited from God, but also evil, inherited via relationship with the devil.
Adam failed in his responsibility to unite with God's command, and thus became unable to exercise his natural responsibility to grow. He left his correct position and went in a completely unlawful direction. To return to his original position, and then continue on to grow to completion (oneness with God), Adam and his descendants need to make some condition that God can claim and say to Satan: "Sorry. They have fulfilled their responsibility, so they belong to me, not you." That condition is the key. It's why we have to believe in Jesus and salvation through the cross (that's our small condition of responsibility) in order to access the salvation God offers us. Without that condition, Satan simply claims to God, "they have not fulfilled their responsibility, so they belong to me." and God cannot refuse that, because it's God's principle itself that says we grow to unity with Him via exercising our responsibility.
So, these three things are key to the reason why God had his champions make offerings to him: the offering represents the Word of God, that Adam lost. By making the offering correctly, the anointed person successfully makes the condition of fulfilling the responsibility Adam could not, and thus can come to stand in a place where God can claim that person.
This process unfolds in God's providence through different stages, which is what the scripture describes. That's why the nature of the offering changes.
(Note for future reference: the offering is not the only thing required to restore God's claim over us. We also must embody the Word (which Adam failed to do) and this is done through unity between God's representative and the ones to be restored. This unity symbolizes the unity Adam should have (but which he didn’t) achieved by embodying God's word and achieving governance OVER the angel, Lucifer.)
It should be noted that Jesus Christ is the one who accomplished substantially, spiritually, this embodiment of the Word (meaning He is the Word, but he brought that to perfection by his own efforts and sufferings), and thus gained victory over the fallen angel, thus becoming the author of salvation.
From this view, Jesus himself is the actual model for success in this area (the path each of us must go), but all the representatives chosen by God before Christ came are actually precursors or symbolic representations of Christ that God established to prepare the way. ("So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.")
Continued below.
Continued.
Prior to Abraham ~ Adam's family and Noah's family
Adam's family
Directly after Adam fell, God worked to have Adam's family restored to him, so that he could bring the Messiah, to give rebirth to them, by having Abel the second son, make an offering. God firstly separated the good and evil in Adam symbolically into the younger son, representing good, and the elder son, representing evil.
Abel made his offering in a manner that pleased God (aka was correct), and this became the condition that Abel united with God's word and fulfilled his providential responsibility, so he could stand as God's representative. Next, Cain (representing Lucifer) had to submit to and unite with him. But Cain murdered him, repeating the Fall where Lucifer murdered Adam spiritually.
Thus, Adam's family (including the 2nd generation) was now lost. Tragically, because Adam's family failed to restore the mistake of Adam, God's providence then had to center on restoring all the mistakes in Adam's family. Thus, Adam and his family became the blueprint for the providence to reverse the effects of the Fall.
To start again, to find a champion to make an offering correctly and who could then stand as God's representative, God worked through 10 generations (10 symbolizing the return to original position) to reset the starting point. After 10 generations, God chose Noah, a righteous man, to make the offering. The offering Noah had to make was the Ark.
Noah's family
Long story short, Noah was successful, and stood as God's representative. However, to have Ham inherit that foundation, and stand as God's representative (like Abel) to Shem (like Cain), the elder brother, Ham had to display complete and unwavering belief in Noah. Sadly, Ham disbelieved in his father, and even convinced his brothers to disbelieve in him "Oh, he is so sinful and shameful, lying there intoxicated!". So, Ham failed to inherit the successful position of Noah, and all God's work in Noah's family, even the 120 year period for the offering of the Ark, was lost. THIS is the reason that Noah cursed Ham when he woke up and realized what Ham had done.
Ham had failed to have unity with his father and inherit the position of God's representative (accordingly, there was no possibility for Shem to unite with Ham to restore the failed relationship between Adam and the Angel, because Ham lost the position of God's representative).
So God had to start all over, and attempt, for the third time, to find and establish a champion who could complete the offering correctly to stand as God's representative, and then have someone in the elder son position (like Cain, or like the Angel Lucifer) submit to and unite with God's representative in the younger son position (like Abel, or like Adam towards Lucifer).
If and when these conditions are met, God has the lawful foundation to say to Satan, this (family, people, nation) are mine. And he can send the Messiah to give rebirth to the offspring of Adam and Eve and restore them back to God's family.
Because God's ideal (which Adam lost) to be restored is the Family, the number 4 x 10 (return to starting point) symbolizes separation from Satan and the fallen situation. Thus, after 400 years from Noah, God found Abraham to become his champion.
Abraham's family
Abraham could thus make the offering at God's instruction after 400 years of separation from Satan.
After a lengthy course of preparing Abraham through all sorts of events (as recorded in scripture) God finally commanded Abraham to make the offering. God commanded 3 different levels of offering: heifer, Sheep + goat, pigeon + dove. The 3 different levels represent restoring the 3 stages of maturing to perfection. Just like the 3 levels in Noah's ark.
Abraham made the offering.
"So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon." Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.
But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land......"
How to understand all this?
Firstly, the cutting in half of the offering symbolize separating the good in Adam from the evil in Adam, and draining out the satanic blood that Adam became home to when he fell.
Abraham did this correctly for stages 3 and 2, but the foundation stage, the pigeon and dove, he failed to do.
Thus, because the offering was not correctly (and symbolically) separated from Satan, God could not claim it. Instead, Satan claimed it, as symbolized by the birds of prey descending.
The problem here is that this was the third attempt by God to have humanity set the right symbolic condition to restore the mistake of Adam. Abel & Cain was the first attempt. Noah, with Ham and Shem, was the second attempt. Abraham was the third attempt. For reasons I won't go into, there is a condition in God's restoration that Satan cannot claim the third attempt.
Thus, even though Abraham failed in the offer, God was able to set up a situation where Abraham did NOT fail in the offering, by sort of creating a ‘legal’ condition that Abraham succeeded and then executing providence to fix up the mistake AFTER the fact.
This is why a) God declared that the Israelites would have to suffer as slaves for 400 years. This is because the 400 years of resetting the starting point that God worked from Noah to Abraham was lost when Abraham failed to do the offering correctly, so it had to be re-established, and b) why later, God had Abraham offer Isaac. If an offering is failed on one level, it can be recovered by making an even greater offering on a new level. Because Abraham failed to complete the (relatively simple) offering of the [heifer, goat + sheep, pigeon + dove], he could only fix that mistake by making a much harder and more difficult offering, which is the offering of Isaac. For Abraham, offering (killing) Isaac was the same as offering (killing) himself.
So, even though Abraham failed in the offering, God established a providence to fix this later, and so, as you have well pointed out, God then proceeded to act AS IF Abraham had succeeded, as evidenced by the smoking firepot and blazing torch, and God completing his covenant with Abraham.
Fleshing out the understanding
There are a few points that round out this understanding of the events described in scripture.
One, Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. If Abraham had been successful in the first offering, then Isaac, when he united with Abraham, would stand in the position of the younger son, Abel, and Ishmael in the position of the elder son, Cain. If they then achieved unity correctly, then the foundation would be set for God to send the Messiah, Jesus, at that time.
Two, in the offering of Isaac, Isaac was old enough to understand that normally, there should be a sheep. For three days (number 3) they journeyed. Can you imagine the agony in Abraham’s heart? What about Isaac? Even when Abraham laid Isaac on the offering altar, Isaac did not flinch. He had complete and perfect faith in his father, Abraham. Thus, Isaac was able to restore the failure of Ham, who failed to believe in his father.
Abraham being willing to offer his son set the condition for God to forgive his mistake in the first offering. So Abraham could then truly stand as God’s representative. Accordingly, Isaac, who displayed perfect faith in his father, God’s representative, was able ton fully inherit the position of God’s representative (which Ham could not). Via the angel, God re-iterates his covenant with Abraham’s family.
Now, with Isaac standing in the position of God’s representative, the condition had to be repeated in Isaac’s family, with Jacob inheriting the foundation and standing in the position of Abel, and Esau standing in the position of Cain. How that unfolded is recorded in scripture.
Despite what to human eyes seems strange, Jacob valued God’s blessing above all, and eventually was able to get Esau to submit to him, and unite with him, and so, finally, after the third attempt (Adam’s family, Noah’s family, Abraham/Isaac/Jacob’s family), both the person being successful in the offering (symbolizing Adam fulfilling his responsibility to unite with the Word) and the unity between younger son and elder son (symbolizing Lucifer submitting to Adam) were both successful and completed.
This is, in fact, why and how the family of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob became established by God as the chosen family and root of the chosen people. It's not just some random whim of God. Rather, God has worked very hard and very methodically to establish a foundation he could use to separate out a people to him on which foundation he would bring the Messiah.
After the 400 years of slavery, God later expanded the victorious foundation of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob's family to ethnic group and then nation-state level by having Moses complete the same conditions on a new level, albeit with Moses in the position of Abel and the Israelites as a whole in the position of Cain.
So, to answer your question, Abraham actually failed the first offering of the heifer, goat and sheep, pigeon and doves, but through God’s grace and the foundation of success in the third attempt, God was able to treat Abraham as if he was successful by setting conditions to restore the mistake AFTER the fact (Isaac, Jacob).
I’d like to just make a suggestion. Pray on this. Read scripture, reflect on the explanation written here, and seek God’s voice. (Don't be afraid to put aside for a moment your previous concepts of the matter, just as a mental exercise.)
In my experience, understanding these elements is key to understanding later developments in God’s providence, such as Moses’ course of restoration, as well as the 2000 year history of Israel and even Jesus' three-year ministry. E.g. Why did the Israelites have to journey for 40 years in the desert? Why could only the 2nd generation enter Canaan? Why could Moses not? (Was there a failure?) Why did Jesus do the 40-day fast directly after meeting john the Baptist? Etc. Why was the cross necessary? Why must Jesus return? Why has it taken so long?
(Somewhat like the Q board) in the Bible, we actually have more than we know. The Bible is in fact a record of God’s providence, above and beyond simple moral lessons or how to live. It is actually the record of how God directs his providence to achieve very specific conditions that restore the failure of Adam and his descendants and lay the foundation for establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. We are still very much in the midst of that process now, so understanding the WHY and the HOW is actually very important if we are to fulfill our responsibility and make our offering correctly.
If you read this far, a blessing on your day.
From His Peace to your strength.
I’m a little breathless. Your reply was like the opening scene of the first Star Wars movie––all that scrolling––but you answered all my questions, and I think I understand your viewpoint. Thank you. I very much appreciate your kindness in taking the time to do that.
I did read it all. It’s a bit different from the normal pathways most people tread to think about God’s actions, but that is not a criticism. My own views are not what you would call mainstream thinking on some points, and that comes from my experience with the Lord as a living reality, His revelation to me, and my own study concerning doctrines that didn’t line up with what the Bible actually says. I don’t like mechanical religion because it’s useless and misses the point of having a family relationship with God, and I don’t like trying to retrofit Mosaic law into the New Covenant because it ruins people’s ability to receive God’s grace. I also don’t like the charts and diagrams of prophecy hounds because most of it is spectacularly wrong. (The evangelical branch of the church is ironically ignorant of the fact that every bit of their ubiquitous belief about the end times is rooted in the deliberately bad exegesis of a single Jesuit priest.)
That sounds kind of negative. I suppose I should be talking about what I do like, but unfortunately I have to go get some rest : ). Thanks again.
Thanks very much for the reply.
Heheh. That's a picturesque description! Yes, normally I am somewhat hesitant to lay things out in such detail and with that sort of breadth, but your question was so beautifully articulate and crystal clear, it felt to me like there was just the right amount of room to go in the direction I did. So, thanks to you.
Certainly cannot deny that! Yes, quite different. I guess the angle here is digging to find out what principles and spiritual laws operate behind the scenes such that they can explain and unify the vast content of data in the scripture. Paul was very clear about the idea that, at some point, God would lift him (and us) up to a new level of understanding vis-a-vis what's really going on in scripture. (For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.)
It's my conviction and faith that we are at that point in time now. So while God is moving on one hand to expose and destroy the Satanic mechanisms that have ruled the world for so long, at the same time, He is knocking on the door for us to rise to an unprecedented and new understanding of scripture that opens the door to a more profound, living relationship with Him. Personally, I feel the reality of that in the revival of faith - centering on relationship, rather than religion - that is springing up all around the world and which is so fundamentally present in the Great Awakening movement.
" that opens the door..." for example, what are the implications for our own practice of faith if the principle is true that God calls us to make the offering of faith and then on that basis, to achieve the unity of brothers that embodies that faith? How does this manifest in our daily lives?
Jesus quoted scripture when he said, in response to the question "Which commandment is the most important of all?”: Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
We can see that these commandments encapsulate the first offering of faith (to believe in and love - unite with - God) and the second offering of unity between brothers. However, specifically, finding the Abels in our life, and uniting with them, and also finding the Cains in our life, and loving them to bring unity with them, these are two fundamental keys to unlocking an outpouring of blessing and grace, imo.
Dang. Sorry. This was going to be a short response in thank you to your comment. But I must confess, these are the topics that really move me, so.... forgive my over-exuberance, please!
"having a family relationship with God"
Wow. What a wonderful and powerful phrase!
When I raised my kids, when they were little, I frequently would ask them "how many people in our family?" And at first, they would answer "4" or "5" or "6" (depending on our numbers), but I would explain "No, we have "5", or "6" or "7". "because we have Heavenly Father first, then there's dad, then mum, then you...."
Because God wants to not just be present in our individual lives, but to be at the very center of our family, and in fact, who loves our family more than the Father?
I think its OK to articulate what you don't like in terms of how certain trends prevail in the pursuit of faith. In being clear about what we don't like, we begin to carve out a clearer understanding and description of what we DO like.
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”
Thanks again for reading and sharing your generous appreciation.
This is going to be like a Holy tsunami. No WONDER satan is angry and afraid!
And also, pomp and ceremony attracts gays. I've noticed this. They like robes, costumes, masks, mystique. Anyplace that is, they are. Beginning to think the plain pulpit Baptist church had it right the whole time. Islam maybe too. In the future, costumes and masks need a pyre burning. It all needs to go.
YES!!! Exactly. This is powerful. I actually observed many people being dramatically converted to Christ in 2017 and on. God was preparing us.
I'd say God is the one revealing who Satan is....
There were religious great awakenings. But they were ultimately characterized by emotional fervor gone unchecked. The masses leave their brains at the door in these kinds of social disruptors, its just the psychological nature of going against the established order. UNLESS the movement is tempered by and led by intellectuals (16th century magisterial Reformation, American Revolution, etc). Otherwise they become mirrors of the godless revolutions of recent centuries.
Reminds me of the times in California Spanish-speaking immigrants would sneer at me, "this not your kone-try". How about no? It is just for Christians and was founded on Christian principles. Not Islamic, not Judaic.
Christian.
Those uncomfortable with this can peacefully leave before it starts getting not peaceful. We're done with you.
All of you.
No.
I've respected and followed Lance Wallnau for many years. Always appreciated his insights. Though I did stop listening to him regularly in 2020 as he was adamentaly against Q, did not believe in a global cabal, and openly attacked many "conspiracy theories" which have since come true.
I guess everyone deserves a second chance though.
The link doesn't work for me, and I had trouble finding it, but I don't need to hear it to know that the all the statements in the post title are true, even the observation about spiritual awakening and political change happening together. You have only to open your eyes to see it. That is not the normal progression, so it can only mean that God has initiated an accelerated program in our generation and that things are going to happen pretty fast.
What link? You should be able to click the video and watch directly.
As for the timing, the first GA took about 70 years until the War of Independence. The second took about 40 until the freeing of the slaves. This one, though its prayer foundation has been going on for decades, has largely surfaced concurrently with the political battle. It seems that time is accelerating.
It didn't work for me, but it doesn't mater in my case. I know about the history of the former awakenings, and I see what's been happening in this one, which is much, much bigger.
I agree that the foundation of prayer was laid long before we saw anything happen. I see the answers to prayers made long ago unfolding before my eyes. "Time accelerating" is actually putting it rather mildly. They stole years trying to get their antichrist installed before the time, and God isn't about to let them get away with it. The approaching turn-around is going to be more awesome than we have to imagination to conceive.
Ethical, not religious. Religions divide us. Ethics can unite us.
Once being a evangelical Christian, I started researching and seeing the flaws in ALL religious beliefs. I do not put down or insult anyone who does not believe what I do. However, a question that always comes to mind, as there are many, many different beliefs in this world, what makes Christianity right? Maybe the aborigines are right. Or, the Hindus, the Amish. The list goes on and on. Right now, my belief is that we are fighting evil, no matter who is at the base of it. Good versus evil.
At Athens, Paul commended the Athenians for their intense spiritual devotion. They even had a shrine "to an unknown god". He then said that he was proclaiming that unknown God to them.
I do not denigrate anyone with a healthy concept of good v. evil who is fighting for the good. The truth of Christianity is special revelation that explains that good v. evil in greater detail.
If we're comparing religions, then you have a good point.
However, I consider myself a Christian and yet I constantly try to get rid of all "religious" thinking. I am not interested in religion, I am interested in relationship with the God who created everything that exists and his son (Jesus) who died for me, making it possible for me to have relationship with that God (Father).
That relationship - which is ongoing, real and dynamic in my daily life - that is what separates Christianity from other belief systems.
The first constitutional congress ever held was a 2 hour Bible study and prayer feast. They honed in on psalms 35 and that would be the prayer that rang around every colony when declaring independence from England.
This country was absolutely founded on Christian principals. You need to learn your history.
Based take, based username, based handshake.
Love to see it!
Who cares? Christianity is as flawed as every other organized religion out there. Even the smartest among us adhere to superstitious BS.
Religion may be flawed but Jesus was not. In fact it was religion that killed Jesus.
Jesus's life, death, and resurrection was prophecied thousands and hundreds of years before his birth. Even the method in which he would be killed was prophecied before crucifixion was even invented.
Read Isaiah 53 But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5 NASB2020 https://bible.com/bible/2692/isa.53.5.NASB2020
Written 750 years before Jesus' birth and our oldest manuscripts, the dead sea scrolls, have proven this was not altered in any way.
The good news about all of this is that not only is there a God, but there's a God who loves you more than you can possibly imagine.
Christianity is as perfect as Jesus Christ assuming you define Christianity as actually following Him and His word as opposed to following a bunch of corrupt men's will who twist it for their own reasons.
What's up with all the death? The fear motivated coercion via the concept of Hell? Worship me or I'll burn you forever!!!!
Sounds like a great guy! Where do I sign up? LOL
You sign up by having faith in Jesus Christ as your savior.
God made the world so God makes the rules, and He did. The punishment for sin is death. No man in the entirety of creation outside of Jesus Christ has ever lived a sinless life so we all deserve death.
Evil dies. If you have a problem with that I don't know what to tell you. The Bible is clear that faith in Christ is what saves you, so listening to some guy in a white hat telling you what to do or risk hell isn't required. Point being if you don't repent and have faith in Christ why should he save you? You broke His rules and won't even accept it and apologize and turn from evil. But if you simply ask to be forgiven and believe in him truly and fully you will be saved.
You can't find a single verse in the bible that isn't good or isn't true, because God is good and true because He is God. You don't really get a choice. Choosing not to believe will not save you. Living in denial won't make God go away. Just like ignoring your parents won't change the fact you're being punished for doing something wrong.
I've noticed that people love to argue half the bible. "Well if God is real what's up with x, y, and z? Doesn't sound that great if he sends people to hell!"
No no, if you want to assume God is real and the Bible is his word you have to accept the whole book. That includes that He is good and that going to hell is a punishment for sin. Sin which can only be cleansed through the blood of Jesus Christ, who died to save us despite how little we deserved it. He died a violent and painful death for a bunch of murderers, thieves, rapists, and adulterers. And if they have faith all of them can be saved and will be brought towards good as a result of that faith.
Only bad people go to hell. If you have faith in Christ you will be born anew with goodness in your heart (if it wasn't already there). If not you will go to hell.
The Bible is a book of love and peace. Everything it says is good so people SHOULD do what it says. But God gave us free will, so if they choose not to for their whole lives they can bear the responsibility of their actions. You don't get to complain after the fact that God should have done this or that to prove it to you better and you would have listened. You have everything you need right now and it's up to you to decide what to do with it.
I'm incompatible with the concept of faith. People can have faith there's a teddy-bear suction-cupped to the dark side of one of Jupitor's moons... Doesn't meant there is. So clearly one can have faith in things not true so using it a some reliable mechanism to determine truth is faulty.
That's the thing... Existence is tyranny. I exist, therefore I must play this ridiculous game, I can't just live my life free of judgement of some deity with questionable creation practices.
Free will, huh? You mean that rope God allegedly gives to everyone, including the ones he knows will hang themselves with it for all of eternity? Great guy! Does he give children loaded guns too?
Again, not worthy of my endorsement. I think the Bible is right about some things, but it's not THE TRUTH... I think it has elements of it. Terrible right? For thinking such a thing I should be punished for all eternity.
Every single one of us deserves death for our sins. Jesus Christ died for us so we could live.
I can't make the blind see. Only you can choose to open your heart to the truth. You clearly live with some deep hatred/disdain toward God, based on what the world has led you to believe in life, rather than who and what He actually is. If you do choose to have faith there are very real and apparent effects. And there's nothing to lose choosing to have faith in something greater than yourself or what can be proven completely and absolutely. If you're wrong you'll die and there will be nothing so it won't matter. If you're right you get eternity with your loving creator.
The last thing I'll say is there's way more evidence for God than there is for a teddy bear on one of Jupiter's moons. I came to faith through evidence I deemed enough to make that faith a valid position to hold. Though I already had a strong, spiritual I guess, draw even before I believed so my standard for "convincing enough" evidence may have been lower. It was certainly much higher than some nonsense, random, baseless claim about a teddy bear on the moon, simply reading a book and going "yea alright", or going to a church all my life and never questioning what they say.
Edit: I'd also add that the idea you take nothing on faith and are incompatible with the entire idea itself is, forgive me, but frankly laughable. Everybody has faith in something, it's part of being human. Some are better than others at managing it in the face of concrete evidence. This is true in a completely naturalistic world or in one created by God.
Perhaps you've noticed that death is already here, and is unavoidable. God offers a way out, through Jesus. It's that simple. God's morality is perfect, unaffected by incomplete situational knowledge or bias. He will do what is right.
I disagree... He's a god with a fragile ego and blood-lust issues.
Not worthy of my endorsement.
Few FF had a problem with a state religion, they had a problem with a national religion. The debates and state constitutions make this clear.
Interesting how you missed mentioning the biggest religious movement of the time and its leader; and how his fad quickly died out.
https://://www.geni.com/people/Rev-John-Murray/6000000011050001031
8 colonies were Catholic.
• Virginia.
• Massachusetts.
• New Hampshire.
• Maryland.
• Connecticut.
• Rhode Island.
• Delaware.
• North Carolina.
Does this show "decisively that the United States was founded not on Christian principles at all but on Enlightenment ideas?"
Or is your book conflating zeitgeist with substance?
LOL. Whoever said the War of Independence was primarily religious?
False argument, cos no one says this.
The reality is that the spiritual and religious revival that was the Great Awakenings laid the spiritual foundation for the War of Independence to take place.
Just like a person who has a rebirth experience and then who goes on to accomplish certain things he or she would not have done otherwise.
But, the secularist interprets everything in terms of humanistic perspective, including religion, and cannot even connect to the spiritual dimension or side of reality. They see only half the world, half the universe.
Your sources are subpar at best. They hardly prove your claim. There's not really anything to counter or refute.
How about you post the actual proof of any of these claims about the founding fathers instead of simply posting claims about them with no proof?
Yes, hence the use of the word overlap instead of coincide.