Leftism cannot survive scrutiny. It requires artificial supports. It must delete the opposition.
(media.communities.win)
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What's ironic is that the same can be applied to religious fundamentalists. Specifically the hardcore and science denying types who see any challenge to their beliefs as literal satan.
Now don't misunderstand (unless you want to). If you have chose faith for yourself, GREAT! Religion is a tool that can be used for good, but we can't just pretend as a lot of the Christians on this board try to do, that the atrocities of the past didn't happen. What helped my growth as a person in both facets of faith and practical life was ACCEPTING the mistakes of the past and agreeing with the people calling them out. In fact, I was able to have deeper conversations with people that wouldn't otherwise happen if I didn't acknowledge their grievances. I also realized, that my actions and ideas are mine and I am responsible for only what I do and don't do. This is where the tribalism needs to be broken. We aren't responsible for the mistakes of the past, but we need to acknowledge and accept them in order to build a better future.
If you are correct and your beliefs are right, you don't need vindication, especially from those who disagree with you. Censorship and narrative control is wrong no matter how right you think you are. If you have to resort to such then... you are not a good person and your ideas are weak and likely wrong.
That very much depends on whether you think what was done was a mistake or not, doesn't it? This narrative is used to assert the premise in your mind that the new way of thinking is superior and the old way of thinking is inferior. Why? Because it lead to "mistakes" which must be "acknowledged" in the way that a "lesson" must be "learned." The Catholics taught Galileo about a mistake that had to be acknowledged.
I'm going to say something controversial here, but with context below. The Nazis got a lot right. Wait, what? Yes. They opposed globohomo. They demanded decency of behavior and called for a return to the work ethic and social structures which had made German science and industry the envy of the world. These people had been drowned in the depth of Weimar, but within a decade of simply unleashing their people's natural industry, turned themselves into a world class machine capable of imposing their will on all of Europe. They taught their own people after a decade of humiliation and abuse to once again be proud of who they were and where they came from. They had a LOT of things right, and the evidence is there to see. They did in fact, conquer western Europe, and had Hitler not stabbed Russia in the back, he might have held it. Was Nazism a "mistake" in that context?
My grandfather spent time in Hitler's "hospitality," so I'm not inclined to say Nazism was a great thing that should be emulated. It was politically authoritarian, openly discriminatory, and aggressively abusive of its own people according to the whims of a tiny handful of psychopaths. We all know the results. Marxism is always a mistake. It attracts the psychopaths and encourages the sort of abuse that we make horror films about. I do not, nor will I ever support that form of government.
But the point is that if there is an element of nuance, we ought to be capable of discussing it without prejudicing the discussion with the kind of framing you just put forward. MAGA teaches us to be proud of who we are and where we came from. It celebrates patriotism. It promotes the idea of personal responsibility, a tremendous work ethic, civil responsibility, a return to traditional social norms. It's opposed to globohomo. Should I reject all of that because it's associated with Nazis? I've had countless Democrats I know personally tell me yes to all of that with a completely straight face because they bought into that guilt by association argument, accepted the framing, and "learned" (all the wrong lessons) from the "mistake."
Dealing in nuance with an open, unprejudiced mind IS an essential component of the learning from history we're all told we should be doing. When you frame things as "mistakes we must learn from" or call people "science deniers" or "religious fundamentalists," you're preventing honest and open-minded discussion by closing minds before the debate even starts.
In that light, and while I'm LOATHE to defend her, Anita Dunn got raked over the coals for a speech she gave at a college admiring Chairman Mao. It was actually something he did 'correct' so to speak, despite being someone willing to murder tens of millions of his own people to accomplish it.
Gee. It's almost like we should call out shitty people and oppose anyone who attempts to control others REGARDLESS of their dumb ass labels.
That's a fantastic way of putting it.
I've been having this same struggle with my very smart brother who thinks Trump is literally Hitler, but loves our Founding Fathers. It's so messed up.
I suppose this is to be a universal struggle of the ages. Good men will build, but there is always someone or some group hell-bent on pulling them down.
Your brother is right to be leery of Trump. Trump doesn't need need trust to do the right thing. No one does. You simply do the right thing.
Instead of trying to fit your worldview into his, try to see things from his perspective. The Founding Fathers would also point out the dictator potential in Trump and sound the alarm of caution. I don't trust Trump completely either and likely never will. But I don't trust any politician. That's part of what got us in this mess.
Your brother has a right to have his views. And you'll sooner get through to him when you show him you respect his right to have his opinions even though you disagree. Stick to the facts, but also look within yourself and dismantle the hero worship. Trump has done turd things and he's no saint. He absolutely could turn out to be another Hitler. That is a possibility that the Founding Fathers warned us about.
Do I think he's another Hitler? No. But a smart patriot always keeps their guns clean especially when candidates they support win.
The problem is more that HE is intolerant of opinions that don't align with his. I am the one whis is not entitled to my opinion. He never misses an opportunity to goad and bait me. When I respond then the verbal abusiveness ensues. He is all in with the globalist world view and sees those with a nationalistic perspective as "like Hitler," including me apparently.
See, you can't deny the facts, but instead have to point the obvious danger of MAGA and insist it's different simply cause you agree with it. Your friend isn't entirely wrong, you should always be on guard for tyranny and tyranny can come in any form especially when you agree with the ideology.
"I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny upon the mind of man."
Every. Form. Of tyranny. While I am grateful for Trump and Q, I do not trust them. A sensible American cleans their guns especially when candidates they support win. No one here has no way of knowing for sure that Trump and MAGA aren't a Trojan Horse meant to install a different flavor of tyranny. Do I think that's the case? At present time, no. Things like Roe v Wade ending are an indicator that they intend to restore the Constitution. And I hope they do. But that doesn't mean they earn my blind faith loyalty. I am a king and I bow to no one except the Servant King, but even that loyalty is of my personal choice NOT because I feel I have to out of misplaced fear of death.
I know it's easy to assume Christians are the default good guys, but of the last year has taught me anything we are individually capable of being Hitler/Stalin/Obama/Bush or Jesus. There is a reason that a piece of paper, not any man is the ruler of this land. Even if you can prove with 100% irrefutable certainty that the Constitution is divinely inspired, that doesn't excuse Christians disrespecting people's right to choose for themselves.
Hitler was also a Christian, a fact you forgot to mention.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
EDIT: Ah. Faceless downvotes. Because "I concede this discussion" just doesn't quite get the point across.
This is why the right will never, ever bend the knee to the left.
I do not give a shit about the past and I have no direct or indirect link to it. My family were serfs for centuries, we had it shitty too. And then I showed up in the early 1980s. And nothing before is my responsibility. Largely, outside of my small sphere of influence, I have no effect on anything like most people. So leave me the fuck alone. Also, maybe prejudices and racism exist because groups of people act like assholes constantly and fuck up the present, where I live.
The most bizarre situation I ever ran across on the internet was being on an old site that is no longer around call IIDB Internet Infidels Discussion Board(2005-10 era). The mods were very careful to separate political and religious discussions. So I was on the politics board and this guy was making great points. He was so on point and eloquent that I even took note of his name etc.
A while later I got on the religion boards for Christianity and I notice this guy that is talking like a raving lunatic. He was fairly eloquent but he sounded like a freaking lunatic. He ignored basic facts and often went on rants that weren't even about the point being made etc... Same guy.
When I finally noticed I even when back to politics and checked to be sure. He was clearly intelligent. He always had the right facts and was totally on point in the politics boards, but when he posted on the religion board he ignored facts and drifted to his pet points to pull the argument in another direction so he wouldn't be seen as losing the real argument because he was losing.
It was truly amazing to me to see how the passion some people put into something like religion(or in the case of leftists their religion of big GOV Socialism) can make them devolve into blathering idiots when they were otherwise sane, intelligent, and skillful debaters.
It was Christians that fought the revolutionary war. And later ended slavery in the USA. AND IT WILL BE Christians that will MAGA. It is your leftist pals that censor you. Truth is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. That's why we are hated. But everyone lives of off the freedom we provide. All real men desire truth. Truth is Fundamental to life.. Lies lead to death..
Those who believe do not prioritize government over God. Live to serve; not live to govern over others.
So an atheist is incapable of fighting? of building? of telling the truth?
You completely ignore the truth... atheists (admittedly a VERY small number of them) also participated in all the things you listed. I would argue that the small number of them present had everything to do with them being discriminated against by Christians. In that era anyone that wasn't a Christian was viewed as an agent of the devil.
And for the record while I might be an atheist... I AM NOT A FUCKING LEFTIST. And they aren't my pals. I assure you they hate me maybe even more than you because like a black conservative can negate the race card I can and often do negate the religion card. FYI - I'm banned on both YT and Twitter for my politics.
Everyone is so busy being emotional about their pet religion they all prove my actual point. When overly emotional about a subject people tend to lose all sense of logic and sanity. I wasn't bashing Christians. I was simply making a point similar to the OP and the reply. Passion while sometimes a good thing can also be a bad thing.
The Constitution the will of the people provide freedom. Christianity does not. It was freedom loving Americans who fought together regardless of personal beliefs. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence was not an evangelical yet his ideas were true and his version of the Bible brought the teachings of Christ to an otherwise unwilling audience.
In my discussions with non believers they're receptive to the teachings of Christ because they make sense and are good values. They have issues with Paul and the religion he started and rightly so. Christians LOVE censorship because it allows them to shoehorn the Bible into discussions and argue that any opposition is literally satan and must be ignored. It wasn't die hard leftists forwarding me petitions to cancel Family Guy, it was my devout right wing grand parents. It wasn't Muslims in the 50s shaming and enforcing modesty standards it was Christians.
Christians are not the default good guys. In fact, they're the single greatest cause of Atheism acknowledging Jesus with their lips and denying Him by their lifestyle.
In the end God judges the heart. And there will be judgement for those, myself included, who damned people to hell in the name of Jesus. Your religion does not make you a good person. Your actions do. Specifically individual actions. You are not to blame for the actions of Christians past, but you don't get to claim the good things either. Only what YOU did will be on trail.
What was the subject material?
The web page itself was meant as a resource for atheists and agnostics. It has a discussion board that was mostly about religion but it also had that politics area. When I look back on it I think its safe to say that many of the atheists were just leftists their to bash on Christians. Ironically, a lot of Christians came to the board to argue with atheists.
This is the problem with these leftists. There pattern is quite clear. They find any sort of fringe movement they invade that movement and outnumber the real people involved. This allows them to takeover the narrative. They then throw money and political weight behind that twisted narrative in order to accomplish their own political goals. They've done this a dozen times in the past fifty years. Atheism, racial relations, LGBT, Islam, etc have all fallen victim to these tactics.
Look at LGBT. You now have gay against groomer etc. They want nothing to do with pedos yet the MAP BS has been placed squarely in their lap and the lunatics are attempting to normalize it. A gay man in 1970 wanted nothing to do with any of this BS. The leftist hijacked their movement and made it what it is.
Atheism has had the same problem. They start a movement like Atheism Plus. They make a list of things they view as important. They recruit. Within 5-10 years the list of issues has totally changed so much it has nothing to do with how it started. All the original people(the real atheists) have, for the most part, left. It becomes an echo chamber and falls apart.
Why? Because it started out with 3,000 actual atheists wanting to improve themselves and then 50,000 lunatic leftist show up and take over. They push an agenda that is mostly political and when you peal back the layers... yep they're lunatic Socialist.
Take a step back and look at it from a 50k ft view you will see the pattern I'm talking about.
word.
"I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against EVERY form of tyranny upon the mind of man."
-Thomas Jefferson
If you're interested in sharing specific examples, I'll listen.
Otherwise your attempt to compare me to this other person and pass judgment on me is not only unfair, but pathetic at best...
Umm... To be clear I'm an atheist. I don't agree with most Christians but I respect their faith just like I would hope they respect my lack of faith. For the most part I agree with you. Many people on this board tend to conveniently ignore negative events from the past.
My point was that people tend to lose sanity when discussing subjects they are most passionate about. Confirmation bias is most likely to creep in to their thought processes the closer and more passionate they are about the subject.
The problem with leftists today is that they have been taught that emotion is all important. Thus when they discuss politics they become even more passionate and lose all logic/sanity. Its is a fatal flaw in the very foundational structure of how they function.
Its also the root of what the OP is talking about. The only way they can shore up their emotional stability is to push aside anything that disrupts it. Ignorance is bliss...