As an ev fan, I’d say this is the best argument against ev’s. All the tax dollars spent, shit id rather have a balanced budget and our dollars buying us more fuel, no doubt. The dollars did help to advance the technology pretty quickly but I’d rather wait for it all to come out naturally.
As a full time courier for the last 5 years, I’d say once you own a used ev, there is no comparison on costs to run/maintain your vehicle.. I paid $3000 for my 180k mile used hybrid 3 years ago, added 30k miles, and I’ve spent about $1200 on gas, $100 electricity, $1000 maintenance/ tires. Car has brought in over 100k in earnings and still same condition/price I bought it..
before that I was using a 8 cylinder 14 mpg vehicle. My costs would be about 10% of earnings for gas and another 5% for maintenance. So id say by switching from 8 cylinder to a hybrid i have saved around $4000 per year. This would be increased if I drove more but i drive less than average.
Yup hybrid is the real way to go for saving money UNLeSS you have a very specific setup like free supercharging OR a large solar and power bank. I have 3 teslas so I know and am bias because I love the evs. However people in SoCal who think they gonna save money by using ev without the factors aforementioned you’re in for some serious pain.
One of the big things is the amount of lithium needed for the batteries and the amount that is easily available.
Last i checked there is 88million tons of lithium with only a 1/4 of that easily available, its also a massive ecological disaster too wherever its processed and needs massive amounts of water, which pollutes the water table.
Batteries can be recycled but your only going to get 50% back at most, so the demand for lithium would grow, every 5-10 years your going to need a new battery.
That is not to say if they try to use lithium batteries for grid storage for solar and wind also will take up the supply of lithium.
I think the whole EV thing is so they can limit the amount of cars on the road to reduce people being able to travel, with the limited amount of lithium say in 10 years of using up the lithium its going to get even harder to replace your batteries.
Now if some miracle battery comes along this would change but it does not look that good overall.
engineers and scientists know that the further from the source that the energy is being used, the less efficiently it is being used. each step where that fuel has to turn into the energy your system uses is another LARGE reduction in efficiency.
The real thing that needs to get into their heads, which people have made memes for...
*raw material -> fuel -> car
compared to
*raw material -> fuel -> heat -> electricity -> car
True. One of the key fundamentals of this logic WAS the fact that municipal power had to be used immediately. Until the last few decades, there was no long term solution to storing electricity on a municipal level.
Instantaneous usage; or it was lost. Our grid was huge, and built for peak demand. Huge, expensive and cascading failures.
With municipal storage cells, everything changes. Grids are smaller, we can generate average and tap storage for peaks. Solar roofs reduce the total demand.
Things are changing. Cars used to get 12mph for the 8cyl muscle cars. My 8cyl Honda gets 22mph and is AWD. Things are changing
The article says £18,000 for the battery. So $22,000 / 78 kwh = $282/kwh. It's been said that $100/kwh is where EVs become economically viable. That applies to replacement batteries too. That battery pack costs Tesla about half of what they sell it for. Of course, when has any replacement battery been fairly priced?
I worry about my Tesla catching fire and burning up fully. I never had that with a gas car. The range is not 300 miles, never ever has it been that. I was seduced by speed and lack of things that would need to be fixed on it. Now I regret having it.
Self driving is as big a scam as the myths of Elon. It doesn't work in heavy rain. The fucking car is a Zamobini in heavy snow. The weight of the car reduces the life time of the expensive tires. The weight of these cars will collapse parking garages that were not build for such heavy vehicles.
And at about 6 years the batteries will need to be replaced. At a cost of around $30k last time I checked. For many electric cars the cost of replacing the batteries is more than the car is worth at that point.
What makes you think the batteries need to be replaced in 6 years? Tesla gives a warranty on the their batteries for 8 years, and they would be warrantying batteries for 8 years if they expected them to die in 6. So that just doesn't make any sense.
At current estimated prices, the cost for a new 75-82kWh battery pack on the Model Y/Model 3 comes in at about $10,000-$12,000 not anywhere close to $30,000. I don't where you guys are getting your information from.
Sure the batteries can go bad after 8 years when warranty is up, and then you could be stuck with a high bill, but it's a low chance, and Tesla batteries can and will last far longer than 8 years on average. Their drivetrain on Tesla's is expected to last for somewhere between 250k - 450k miles. Gas cars can't do that without thousands in expensive repairs. So yes maybe after 150,000 miles, and 10 years of owning a Tesla you may have to replace the battery for 12k, but if you owned an expensive Audi, or BMW or something similar the cost of maintenance fee's, water pumps, timing belts, oil changes and gas would exceed that 12k for a new battery anyway.
Would those numbers be accurate for a few years ago? I suppose it's possible people are just rattling off "old" information, not realizing how fast this stuff is advancing.
Tesla's are something like 19 times LESS likely to catch on fire than gas cars. Your worrying about your Tesla catching on fire is unfounded. Self driving is only a scam only if you were rich enough, and or silly enough to pay $10,000 dollars for FSD. The enhanced auto pilot on Tesla's is awesome, and no other car offers that right now. So the car is a Zamboni in the snow?, Really? the car is excellent in snow because of the equal weight distribution, power curve much more predictable, all wheel drive system with electric motors is superior.
I'm sorry you regret buying a Tesla, but your criticisms of it are odd, and all of your criticisms were easily discoverable before you bought the car, maybe you should have done your research better. The only valid complaint is the range not being as good.
You bought that car because it is fun as hell to drive and it still is! I test drove a ford lightning and couldn’t keep the smile off my face. Woulda bought it but it wasn’t available.
Terrible investment though but still, what the heck, enjoy it!
Without reading the article, here's how I explain it.
For gasoline car, we have the following supply chain. Remember each step involves transportation of some kind.
Oil in the earth -> Pump -> Crude Oil -> pipeline, rail cars, or ship -> refinery -> gasoline -> pipeline, rail cars, trucks -> gas station -> pump -> gas tank in your car -> fuel pump -> fuel injection + air -> combustion -> mechanical energy + heat -> transmission -> drivetrain -> tires -> movement
Here's how people represent electric cars (but this is missing a lot of steps):
electricity from the wall -> charger -> EV battery -> EV motor -> movement
The part people miss is where does the electricity come from?
Solar energy goes sunlight -> solar cell -> battery -> transformer -> power grid -> transformer -> your house -> your wall
Wind energy goes wind -> windmill -> battery -> transformer -> power grid -> etc...
Natural gas is natural gas in the earth -> pump -> pipeline, rail cars or ship -> natural gas + air -> heat -> turbine -> transformer -> power grid
Coal is coal in the earth -> dug out -> rail cars -> coal + air -> heat -> turbine -> transformer -> power grid
Nuclear power (if you are so lucky) raw uranium ore -> refinery -> fuel rods -> nuclear reactor -> heat -> turbine -> etc...
Notice that for gas-powered cars, the entire power generation phase is replaced by the refinery that makes gasoline. Furthermore, the way gasoline is made is ridiculously good in terms of energy loss / input. There just isn't as much loss as there is for other forms of energy.
In the case of "green" energy systems, you need batteries to store that energy, and batteries are very, very lossy. For Li-ion batteries, it's 80%-90%. Imagine pouring 10 gallons of gas into a tank, but only drawing out 8 or 9 gallons. That's how bad batteries are. And there is no way to make this better.
For power transmission, just moving the power down the lines involves quite a bit of loss. It's roughly similar - 8% to 15%. Imagine pouring 10 gallons of gas down a tube, but only getting 8 or 9 gallons out the other end.
Converting energy into electricity is not efficient. It is useful, yes, and readily converted to whatever other forms of energy you need, but there are huge costs involved with it. It is better to leave the gasoline alone, and let it power the car directly rather than converting everything to batteries and transmission lines, when oil tankers, rail cars, pipelines and trucks are so much more efficient at transferring it than power lines are at electricity.
There's a video here somewhere, where the guy says how much electricity the electric cars take when they charge up, compared to multiple homes using electricity. But I can't find it.
I saw that, it was something like the equivalent to power 280 homes, but he didn't state how long that was, unless I missed that part. Was it a day? or just the hour it took to recharge the car?
I don't remember, wish I could find it. I thought I shared it with friends but can't find it, wonder if it was taken down on whatever social media platform it was on.
Has the last 10 years of electric and coal prices in the UK indicated to the consumer that these prices are stable and can be relied upon?
It's not a trick question.
This whole thing is retarded.
Don't forget the added cost to all taxpayers of high dollar subsidies.
We all pay.
As an ev fan, I’d say this is the best argument against ev’s. All the tax dollars spent, shit id rather have a balanced budget and our dollars buying us more fuel, no doubt. The dollars did help to advance the technology pretty quickly but I’d rather wait for it all to come out naturally.
As a full time courier for the last 5 years, I’d say once you own a used ev, there is no comparison on costs to run/maintain your vehicle.. I paid $3000 for my 180k mile used hybrid 3 years ago, added 30k miles, and I’ve spent about $1200 on gas, $100 electricity, $1000 maintenance/ tires. Car has brought in over 100k in earnings and still same condition/price I bought it.. before that I was using a 8 cylinder 14 mpg vehicle. My costs would be about 10% of earnings for gas and another 5% for maintenance. So id say by switching from 8 cylinder to a hybrid i have saved around $4000 per year. This would be increased if I drove more but i drive less than average.
Yup hybrid is the real way to go for saving money UNLeSS you have a very specific setup like free supercharging OR a large solar and power bank. I have 3 teslas so I know and am bias because I love the evs. However people in SoCal who think they gonna save money by using ev without the factors aforementioned you’re in for some serious pain.
One of the big things is the amount of lithium needed for the batteries and the amount that is easily available. Last i checked there is 88million tons of lithium with only a 1/4 of that easily available, its also a massive ecological disaster too wherever its processed and needs massive amounts of water, which pollutes the water table.
Batteries can be recycled but your only going to get 50% back at most, so the demand for lithium would grow, every 5-10 years your going to need a new battery.
That is not to say if they try to use lithium batteries for grid storage for solar and wind also will take up the supply of lithium.
I think the whole EV thing is so they can limit the amount of cars on the road to reduce people being able to travel, with the limited amount of lithium say in 10 years of using up the lithium its going to get even harder to replace your batteries.
Now if some miracle battery comes along this would change but it does not look that good overall.
They intend for everyone to drive electric cars but they also intend for the population to be much smaller by that time.
engineers and scientists know that the further from the source that the energy is being used, the less efficiently it is being used. each step where that fuel has to turn into the energy your system uses is another LARGE reduction in efficiency.
The real thing that needs to get into their heads, which people have made memes for... *raw material -> fuel -> car compared to *raw material -> fuel -> heat -> electricity -> car
the later will always consume more fuel
True. One of the key fundamentals of this logic WAS the fact that municipal power had to be used immediately. Until the last few decades, there was no long term solution to storing electricity on a municipal level. Instantaneous usage; or it was lost. Our grid was huge, and built for peak demand. Huge, expensive and cascading failures.
With municipal storage cells, everything changes. Grids are smaller, we can generate average and tap storage for peaks. Solar roofs reduce the total demand.
Things are changing. Cars used to get 12mph for the 8cyl muscle cars. My 8cyl Honda gets 22mph and is AWD. Things are changing
The article says £18,000 for the battery. So $22,000 / 78 kwh = $282/kwh. It's been said that $100/kwh is where EVs become economically viable. That applies to replacement batteries too. That battery pack costs Tesla about half of what they sell it for. Of course, when has any replacement battery been fairly priced?
I worry about my Tesla catching fire and burning up fully. I never had that with a gas car. The range is not 300 miles, never ever has it been that. I was seduced by speed and lack of things that would need to be fixed on it. Now I regret having it.
Self driving is as big a scam as the myths of Elon. It doesn't work in heavy rain. The fucking car is a Zamobini in heavy snow. The weight of the car reduces the life time of the expensive tires. The weight of these cars will collapse parking garages that were not build for such heavy vehicles.
And at about 6 years the batteries will need to be replaced. At a cost of around $30k last time I checked. For many electric cars the cost of replacing the batteries is more than the car is worth at that point.
What makes you think the batteries need to be replaced in 6 years? Tesla gives a warranty on the their batteries for 8 years, and they would be warrantying batteries for 8 years if they expected them to die in 6. So that just doesn't make any sense.
At current estimated prices, the cost for a new 75-82kWh battery pack on the Model Y/Model 3 comes in at about $10,000-$12,000 not anywhere close to $30,000. I don't where you guys are getting your information from.
Sure the batteries can go bad after 8 years when warranty is up, and then you could be stuck with a high bill, but it's a low chance, and Tesla batteries can and will last far longer than 8 years on average. Their drivetrain on Tesla's is expected to last for somewhere between 250k - 450k miles. Gas cars can't do that without thousands in expensive repairs. So yes maybe after 150,000 miles, and 10 years of owning a Tesla you may have to replace the battery for 12k, but if you owned an expensive Audi, or BMW or something similar the cost of maintenance fee's, water pumps, timing belts, oil changes and gas would exceed that 12k for a new battery anyway.
Would those numbers be accurate for a few years ago? I suppose it's possible people are just rattling off "old" information, not realizing how fast this stuff is advancing.
Tesla's are something like 19 times LESS likely to catch on fire than gas cars. Your worrying about your Tesla catching on fire is unfounded. Self driving is only a scam only if you were rich enough, and or silly enough to pay $10,000 dollars for FSD. The enhanced auto pilot on Tesla's is awesome, and no other car offers that right now. So the car is a Zamboni in the snow?, Really? the car is excellent in snow because of the equal weight distribution, power curve much more predictable, all wheel drive system with electric motors is superior.
I'm sorry you regret buying a Tesla, but your criticisms of it are odd, and all of your criticisms were easily discoverable before you bought the car, maybe you should have done your research better. The only valid complaint is the range not being as good.
Cascade cement leaves a flat path behind the car. It would do better in powdery snow.
You bought that car because it is fun as hell to drive and it still is! I test drove a ford lightning and couldn’t keep the smile off my face. Woulda bought it but it wasn’t available.
Terrible investment though but still, what the heck, enjoy it!
I have ski'ed the car, drift mode/sports mode will give you some serious whiplash. I do love that.
Nah disagreed on the fsd. I have it on mine and it’s a lot closer than you’re giving it credit for.
I will have to give it a try again this week.
Without reading the article, here's how I explain it.
For gasoline car, we have the following supply chain. Remember each step involves transportation of some kind.
Oil in the earth -> Pump -> Crude Oil -> pipeline, rail cars, or ship -> refinery -> gasoline -> pipeline, rail cars, trucks -> gas station -> pump -> gas tank in your car -> fuel pump -> fuel injection + air -> combustion -> mechanical energy + heat -> transmission -> drivetrain -> tires -> movement
Here's how people represent electric cars (but this is missing a lot of steps):
electricity from the wall -> charger -> EV battery -> EV motor -> movement
The part people miss is where does the electricity come from?
Notice that for gas-powered cars, the entire power generation phase is replaced by the refinery that makes gasoline. Furthermore, the way gasoline is made is ridiculously good in terms of energy loss / input. There just isn't as much loss as there is for other forms of energy.
In the case of "green" energy systems, you need batteries to store that energy, and batteries are very, very lossy. For Li-ion batteries, it's 80%-90%. Imagine pouring 10 gallons of gas into a tank, but only drawing out 8 or 9 gallons. That's how bad batteries are. And there is no way to make this better.
For power transmission, just moving the power down the lines involves quite a bit of loss. It's roughly similar - 8% to 15%. Imagine pouring 10 gallons of gas down a tube, but only getting 8 or 9 gallons out the other end.
Converting energy into electricity is not efficient. It is useful, yes, and readily converted to whatever other forms of energy you need, but there are huge costs involved with it. It is better to leave the gasoline alone, and let it power the car directly rather than converting everything to batteries and transmission lines, when oil tankers, rail cars, pipelines and trucks are so much more efficient at transferring it than power lines are at electricity.
Electric cars are worse for the environment by far and are PURELY a status symbol for people with more money than brains.
Awesome!!!
Oh...and...
Told ya so!!!!!
Hahahahahahahahaha
Here's a post about cost to fueling an electric car...
https://greatawakening.win/p/17rT6m2pZ1/study-cost-of-fueling-an-electri/c/
There's a video here somewhere, where the guy says how much electricity the electric cars take when they charge up, compared to multiple homes using electricity. But I can't find it.
I saw that, it was something like the equivalent to power 280 homes, but he didn't state how long that was, unless I missed that part. Was it a day? or just the hour it took to recharge the car?
I don't remember, wish I could find it. I thought I shared it with friends but can't find it, wonder if it was taken down on whatever social media platform it was on.
I think the original is a tik tok video.
To be fair they were never sold as a cheaper alternative