I think I FIGURED OUT why they destroyed the church bells!!
432hz vs 440hz is a limited hangout! It's about relative pitch, not absolute pitch. That's what moves the soul. That's why slide guitar or violin or cello or vocals can stir the soul like they do, because you can hit the "just temperament note" whereas the frets on a guitar (or keys on a modern piano) only hit the "equal temperament notes". Some guitarists tune their guitars subtly different for different songs, for this very reason. This is why I love playing slide, I can get between the notes. It's subtle, but it makes all the difference. It's where the soul lives! It's what autotunes takes OUT of voices.
I bet the bells were tuned to just temperament. Now I bet they are in equal temperament. It sucks the life out of them and fucks up all the overtones. Just temperament is sublime.
Listen to at least the first 80 seconds of the first video and test your ear/soul. I legit wept in the 20 second mark to the 32 second mark. Perfection. Cut me to my soul.
THANK YOU FOR THIS POST!!! YOU HELPED ME PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!
Ear Candy below, for those who made it this far! If you have a nice sound system, I hope you have tissue. PLAY IT LOUD SO YOU CAN FEEL IT, not just hear it.
One of the most beautiful video game songs ever composed used the sound of church bells--because Christianity was originally going to be the religion of its setting, before plans changed.
At least, it used the bells in Japan. Hardware changes for the US version of the console required a change in composition.
My son masters all his music to 432 hertz. He gets it. He also does not imbue the music with any noise or super-imposed frequencies. But he knows other musicians that indeed do... particularly in the EDM industry. Just sayin
Watched a video, how a very popular song writer, was questioned about a satantic song and how he had derived lyrics , and said " all I know it came from some spiritual force entering my mind" Evil spiritual forces are real!!!
I am never convinced by all this frequency stuff. I try to remain open-minded but can people actually tell the difference between a piece played in the key of A with A tuned to 440 Hz from something played in the key of A# with A tuned to 415.3 Hz?
Musical perception is primarily a reflection of the relative relationship between the notes. Under blind conditions most of us will have a hard time noticing a small shift of a single anchor point - A over middle C - because the frequency ratios between all notes on the scale remains unchanged. This is true by construction.
A very few people possess absolute pitch (such as Dylan Beato) allowing them to identify the difference overtly. I'm not sure but possessing the skill of absolute pitch probably has little impact on how the music feels qualitatively.
Funny side note. There was one Rick Beato video where he is dumbfounded that non-musicians cannot tell when a song is being played on instruments that are out of tune. I'm like Dude, us non-musicians do not memorize the default tuning of a song as a reference and use that to judge whether a rendition is right or wrong. The relationship between the notes is what defines the song for us. If a guitar is a flat for instance, well, to us that just means the arrangement has a certain color to the sonics. ... Okay, sorry about ranting at Rick where he can't hear me here. Been wanting to get that off my chest.
Absolute location does have a secondary effect and this can be exaggerated by taking it to extremes. For example if the tuning reference were set to 220 Hz or 880 Hz. Songs played to those tunings will have strikingly distant feel from standard tuning.
Is there something to explain perceptual differences in the feel of 432 Hz verses 440 Hz tuning, other than perceptual priming? Like others I sometimes hear a difference in overall feel -- though I'm skeptical that there is a consistent preference of one over the other on a wide variety of songs, over a large sample of subjects. That's for psychometric studies. For me results of self-testing is a toss-up.
My suspicion: A 2% shift in tuning has effects on the relative strengths of harmonics over the fundamental, as that is key to how an instrument feels. This would be a result of tightening or loosening the strings on a stringed instrument for example. Implied is that the effect is dependent on the instrument. The change in the feel of horn instruments is not likely the same as for string instruments.
Anyway, some people express strong conviction for 432 Hz tuning. It's intriguing. I guess I get it, but don't get it.
What if you're new to the song?
What if you don't know if that song is tuned up or down.
What if you were brought up your whole life on the demon frequency and you naturally think a "demon C" sounds like any other "C" throughout your life.
To incite a change, the thing you need to stimulate people with has to change.
If the frequency was busted out only occasionally then it could be plausible, but if its been around for GENERATIONS there's no way.
I like how the Rick Beato thing was 8 years ago. 44 vs 32. Nice! Almost there now...
How about 432.10 Hz? We could call it the "justice" temperament. π
Seriously, though... I have a question about music math. What does a talk box do to the signal coming in from the guitar. Does it change the wave shape? Or the envelope? Both? Something else?
Temperament refers to the spacing between notes. 432 vs 440 is about the starting point, which is less important, imho.
I love talking pedals.
Distortion/fuzz changes the wave form away from smooth. Fuzz is very jagged, basically a square wave. Distortion uses clipping to "squash" the wave and cuts off more at the top or bottom (asymmetric vs symmetric). Overdrive increases the signal strength to cause the tube amp to overload so the squashing happens inside a vacuum tube, my very favorite kind. :) Expensive. Kek. If it is set "right", when you play gently there is no clipping/distortion at all, but if you dig into the strings instead of it getting louder (because it can't, you've maxxed the amp) it distorts, this is called "edge of breakup" and is the holy grail of electric guitar sound, for me. Many players "stack" overdrive/distortion/fuzz to get thick, warm distortion sounds. Wah-wah pedals change the envelope, at will, with your foot. Super fun. Sometimes people use them "half-cocked", where you just set the pedal (envelope) where you like it, leave the pedal turned on but not move it.
Talk boxes are very cool. They send whatever signal you have crafted to a airhose and pipe the sound to your mouth, then it resonates in your mouth and is picked up by a mic like a singer. changing the shape of your mouth changes the quality of the sound.
Then there is modulation effects (phase changers, chorus), delays, reverbs, compressors, noise gates, etc. I have spent so much money on music equipment it boggles the mind. Kek. It keeps it's value anyway.
Darn it! My countdown to justice pun didn't work. Oh well.
I agree about the tube sound being the holy grail for the guitar. The move to solid state in the 80s was way to early and ruined the guitar sound for a decade.
So with a talk box the piped sound is used instead of the vocal cords? Do they whisper the words? I'm sorta trying to imagine out how this would work digitally with say a DSP and I can't tell if it's the same algorithm as autotune, or something different.
Oh, I know the talk box is pure analog, but I was trying to make the leap to digital. However mouth shape doesn't seem like a sound that you could sample.
I think I FIGURED OUT why they destroyed the church bells!!
432hz vs 440hz is a limited hangout! It's about relative pitch, not absolute pitch. That's what moves the soul. That's why slide guitar or violin or cello or vocals can stir the soul like they do, because you can hit the "just temperament note" whereas the frets on a guitar (or keys on a modern piano) only hit the "equal temperament notes". Some guitarists tune their guitars subtly different for different songs, for this very reason. This is why I love playing slide, I can get between the notes. It's subtle, but it makes all the difference. It's where the soul lives! It's what autotunes takes OUT of voices.
I bet the bells were tuned to just temperament. Now I bet they are in equal temperament. It sucks the life out of them and fucks up all the overtones. Just temperament is sublime.
Listen to at least the first 80 seconds of the first video and test your ear/soul. I legit wept in the 20 second mark to the 32 second mark. Perfection. Cut me to my soul.
Piano Tuner Shows Classical Repertoire Performed in Historical Tunings
From above video... 18:40 "If we play music of the 18th and 19th century in equal temperament, it's like looking at a painting without the colour."
Listen to the first minute of the video below...
How Eighteenth Century Piano Tuners Heard Major 3rds | 18th Century Aesthetics
Two Short Ear/Soul Tests Below
Just Intonation vs Equal Temperament
EQUAL temperament vs JUST intonation (PURE tuning)
Below is a 40 second overview using Canon in D by Pachelbel... Listen with your soul, not your ear...
Is Modern Music Out Of Tune? | 1 Minute Music Theory
A couple below for the math whiz autists...
Just Intonation vs 12 Tone Equal Temperament
The one above actually gives my physical cold shivers when they switch back and forth. (fractions are "just", numbers are "equal")
Why It's Impossible to Tune a Piano
THANK YOU FOR THIS POST!!! YOU HELPED ME PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!
Ear Candy below, for those who made it this far! If you have a nice sound system, I hope you have tissue. PLAY IT LOUD SO YOU CAN FEEL IT, not just hear it.
J.S. Bach: Air from the Suite No.3 in D in Just Intonation
Broken bell... probably 12 feet in diameter and taller than that with a huge chunk blown out if it...
Moscow 1908
Rewind to see the massive canon and balls that probably did it...
Tragic. )-;
One of the most beautiful video game songs ever composed used the sound of church bells--because Christianity was originally going to be the religion of its setting, before plans changed.
At least, it used the bells in Japan. Hardware changes for the US version of the console required a change in composition.
You've probably heard of the game.
Done!
Glad to help!
Thank you! Glad to help Fren.
Bells do not have overtones in the same way that pipes and strings do. They are not harmonically related.
They have wavelength. Bells tuned "just" are gonna sound way nicer and their wavelengths are gonna line up way nicer when tuned "equal".
Thank you for sharing this article. I've just learn about this recently and it makes perfect sense to me now.
Church bells would be fucking annoying if you're not religious.
Look at the religous/secular demographics... Once people WANT bells again, they'll return.
Kind of like the Islam call of the muezzin is annoying AF to anyone who is not Muslim.
No, when I visted India I thoroughly enjoyed listening to the Muslim call to prayer especially in the early morning.
And then they use modern sound equipment, created by Christians, to amplify the insane, off-key, screeching.
I am so glad you are posting this.
We need bells back; everywhere! No Chinese steel. Bring back real steel!
Historically, bells were cast from bronze and occasionally iron, not steel, in order to get the best sound.
MORE COWBELLπΈ
My son masters all his music to 432 hertz. He gets it. He also does not imbue the music with any noise or super-imposed frequencies. But he knows other musicians that indeed do... particularly in the EDM industry. Just sayin
If you like EDM... Paraleven.
Watched a video, how a very popular song writer, was questioned about a satantic song and how he had derived lyrics , and said " all I know it came from some spiritual force entering my mind" Evil spiritual forces are real!!!
I am never convinced by all this frequency stuff. I try to remain open-minded but can people actually tell the difference between a piece played in the key of A with A tuned to 440 Hz from something played in the key of A# with A tuned to 415.3 Hz?
EXTREMELY POWERFUL POST! β¨π
Rest well my frenππ€
He's talking about Taylor Swift!
Different frequency literally just means different key.
Change the key of a song/instrument up or down and people subconsciously interpret orders from that?!
Itβs more about the relations between the intervals. And harmonic resonance.
That is my first reaction as well.
Musical perception is primarily a reflection of the relative relationship between the notes. Under blind conditions most of us will have a hard time noticing a small shift of a single anchor point - A over middle C - because the frequency ratios between all notes on the scale remains unchanged. This is true by construction.
A very few people possess absolute pitch (such as Dylan Beato) allowing them to identify the difference overtly. I'm not sure but possessing the skill of absolute pitch probably has little impact on how the music feels qualitatively.
Funny side note. There was one Rick Beato video where he is dumbfounded that non-musicians cannot tell when a song is being played on instruments that are out of tune. I'm like Dude, us non-musicians do not memorize the default tuning of a song as a reference and use that to judge whether a rendition is right or wrong. The relationship between the notes is what defines the song for us. If a guitar is a flat for instance, well, to us that just means the arrangement has a certain color to the sonics. ... Okay, sorry about ranting at Rick where he can't hear me here. Been wanting to get that off my chest.
Absolute location does have a secondary effect and this can be exaggerated by taking it to extremes. For example if the tuning reference were set to 220 Hz or 880 Hz. Songs played to those tunings will have strikingly distant feel from standard tuning.
Is there something to explain perceptual differences in the feel of 432 Hz verses 440 Hz tuning, other than perceptual priming? Like others I sometimes hear a difference in overall feel -- though I'm skeptical that there is a consistent preference of one over the other on a wide variety of songs, over a large sample of subjects. That's for psychometric studies. For me results of self-testing is a toss-up.
My suspicion: A 2% shift in tuning has effects on the relative strengths of harmonics over the fundamental, as that is key to how an instrument feels. This would be a result of tightening or loosening the strings on a stringed instrument for example. Implied is that the effect is dependent on the instrument. The change in the feel of horn instruments is not likely the same as for string instruments.
Anyway, some people express strong conviction for 432 Hz tuning. It's intriguing. I guess I get it, but don't get it.
This isn't a key change. It is shifting the entire scale by a few Hz, but the change has a very different impact on the human psyche.
What if you're new to the song? What if you don't know if that song is tuned up or down. What if you were brought up your whole life on the demon frequency and you naturally think a "demon C" sounds like any other "C" throughout your life.
To incite a change, the thing you need to stimulate people with has to change.
If the frequency was busted out only occasionally then it could be plausible, but if its been around for GENERATIONS there's no way.
Musician checking in. I've tried 432hz, 440hz and 444hz. I don't hear a big difference myself but 432hz does seem a little flat to me.
Here is Rick Beato weighing in on the matter, he is one of the most respected music teachers/producers on the internet....
What's the Deal With A = 440 Hz vs 432 Hz? Let's Talk!
Here is Paul Davids weighing in on the matter, also highly respected, master guitarist....
The Ultimate 432Hz VS 440Hz | CONSPIRACY + Comparison
A bigger issue, to my ear, is equal temperament vs just temperament. A crazy rabbit hole but no grand conspiracy, just technically difficult to fix.
I like how the Rick Beato thing was 8 years ago. 44 vs 32. Nice! Almost there now...
How about 432.10 Hz? We could call it the "justice" temperament. π
Seriously, though... I have a question about music math. What does a talk box do to the signal coming in from the guitar. Does it change the wave shape? Or the envelope? Both? Something else?
Temperament refers to the spacing between notes. 432 vs 440 is about the starting point, which is less important, imho.
I love talking pedals.
Distortion/fuzz changes the wave form away from smooth. Fuzz is very jagged, basically a square wave. Distortion uses clipping to "squash" the wave and cuts off more at the top or bottom (asymmetric vs symmetric). Overdrive increases the signal strength to cause the tube amp to overload so the squashing happens inside a vacuum tube, my very favorite kind. :) Expensive. Kek. If it is set "right", when you play gently there is no clipping/distortion at all, but if you dig into the strings instead of it getting louder (because it can't, you've maxxed the amp) it distorts, this is called "edge of breakup" and is the holy grail of electric guitar sound, for me. Many players "stack" overdrive/distortion/fuzz to get thick, warm distortion sounds. Wah-wah pedals change the envelope, at will, with your foot. Super fun. Sometimes people use them "half-cocked", where you just set the pedal (envelope) where you like it, leave the pedal turned on but not move it.
Talk boxes are very cool. They send whatever signal you have crafted to a airhose and pipe the sound to your mouth, then it resonates in your mouth and is picked up by a mic like a singer. changing the shape of your mouth changes the quality of the sound.
Then there is modulation effects (phase changers, chorus), delays, reverbs, compressors, noise gates, etc. I have spent so much money on music equipment it boggles the mind. Kek. It keeps it's value anyway.
Darn it! My countdown to justice pun didn't work. Oh well.
I agree about the tube sound being the holy grail for the guitar. The move to solid state in the 80s was way to early and ruined the guitar sound for a decade.
So with a talk box the piped sound is used instead of the vocal cords? Do they whisper the words? I'm sorta trying to imagine out how this would work digitally with say a DSP and I can't tell if it's the same algorithm as autotune, or something different.
Kek. I missed that.
Correct.
Nope, just mouth shape, no air from the lungs going out the mouth at all.
Pure analog.
Richie Sambora TALKBOX (livin on a prayer) bon jovi
Oh, I know the talk box is pure analog, but I was trying to make the leap to digital. However mouth shape doesn't seem like a sound that you could sample.
Most classical composers are a quarter note tuned down.
It's not about the notes themselves, it's about the space between them. Watch the first minute of this video...
How Eighteenth Century Piano Tuners Heard Major 3rds | 18th Century Aesthetics