I know people like to blame dispensationalism on the Rockefeller and Darby and such but dispensationalism goes all the way back to the 1st century church fathers. Irenaeus wrote about dispensations. Pre-Trib rapture was a common belief in the early church. There’s even a book titled Dispensationalism Before Darby that shows this research.
You should really look into the things you comment on and not just regurgitate ignorant Tik Tok and Insta posts. The Rockefellers this, Scholfield that. Pfft! Give it a break.
Lol oh son.... I don't watch tiktoks, I study theology, theonomy, and church history.
Oh good, you have arrived at the “Irenaeus had a Scofield Reference Bible in Greek” stage of stupidity.
Let’s tidy this up before someone starts claiming the Didache had footnotes on the gap theory.
“Irenaeus wrote about dispensations”
Yes. And?
The word dispensation comes from oikonomia. It simply means administration or stewardship. The apostle Paul uses it in Ephesians 1:10.
Using the word is not the same thing as teaching a fully formed 19th century dispensational system with:
A hard Israel–Church dichotomy
A parenthetical Church age
A secret pre-tribulation rapture
A restored temple with reinstituted sacrifices
That is like saying because someone in the first century used the word “catholic” they must have meant the entire doctrinal package of the 16th century Council of Trent. Words travel. Systems develop.
Irenaeus talked about stages in redemptive history. So did Augustine. So did everybody with a pulse and a Bible. That does not make them Darbyites in sandals.
“Pre-Trib rapture was common in the early church”
Common? That is a strong word for something that requires squinting at a handful of ambiguous lines and pretending they are PowerPoint slides from the Plymouth Brethren annual conference.
The early church was broadly premillennial for a time. Fine. But a secret, pre-tribulation rapture where Christ comes halfway back, does a spiritual U-turn, and then returns again seven years later? That is not sitting there in the fathers like a forgotten casserole.
The burden of proof is not “I found a sentence that sounds rapture-ish.” The burden is showing a coherent pre-trib system. That system crystalizes in the 19th century under John Nelson Darby. That is not TikTok. That is church history.
And invoking the book Dispensationalism Before Darby does not magically transport Scofield notes into the second century. It attempts to show precursors and similar themes. Precursors are not the same thing as full-blown theology with charts.
If finding a few thematic similarities proves identity, then Augustine was basically a Presbyterian with a Geneva Study Bible tucked under his robe.
The Rockefeller boogeyman
Now, about the Rockefellers. It is entirely possible to reject conspiracy lore without pretending Darby fell out of the sky in A.D. 95. The popularization of dispensationalism in America absolutely involved:
Cyrus I. Scofield
His reference Bible
Wealthy patrons and publishing networks. (Which the Rockefellers were certainly a major player whether you like it or not)
That is not a secret handshake theory. It is how ideas spread. Through money, printing presses, and institutions. Always has been.
But even if you remove every Rockefeller from the equation, you still do not get a first century pre-trib system. You get strands of futurism and millennial expectation. Not the chart.
The real issue
The question is not “Did anyone before Darby believe in stages of history?” Of course they did.
The question is “Did the early church teach a secret pre-tribulation rapture distinct from the visible second coming?”
The historical answer is no. Not clearly. Not systemically. Not in the way modern dispensationalism requires.
So before accusing others of regurgitating Instagram theology, it might help to distinguish between:
Shared vocabulary
Shared themes
Fully developed theological systems
Otherwise you are basically arguing that because someone in the early church believed Jesus would return, they must have had a prophecy conference schedule tucked into their tunic.
If you want to argue for dispensationalism from Scripture, go for it. But trying to baptize it in second century water as if it were always there just makes you look like you are retrofitting Darby with a time machine.
Dude. You came in here yelling about Rockefellers and Jewish lies and now you're writing a whole Wikipedia article about Greek words. Which one are you? The conspiracy guy or the scholar? Because those are two different people and you switched real quick when someone called you on it.
Nobody said Irenaeus had a Scofield Bible. Nobody. Point out where either Rando or Military said that. They didn't, you made that up so you could dunk on it. That's like me arguing with my kids about something they never said. Cool, you won a fight with yourself.
And this whole "precursors aren't systems" thing. Yeah no kidding. When did your boy Rushdoony put theonomy together, the 70s? That's like five minutes ago. But somehow that's legit and dispensationalism is a fraud because it was systematized in the 1800s. Make it make sense.
You blew right past Pseudo-Ephraem too. Just acted like that part wasn't there. For a church history guy that's a weird thing to just skip over. But I get it. Hard to deal with.
And the whole tone. The "oh son" stuff. The casserole line. The tunic joke. Bro you're trying way too hard. You sound like a youth pastor who just discovered sarcasm. You started this thread with the worst take in the room and now you're doing victory laps. For what exactly?
Bring Scripture or bring nothing. The rest of this is just you being in love with how you sound.
Do yourself a favor and sit down, before you embarrass yourself further.
That's your reply? That's what you came back with? Three lines and an emoji?
You just wrote a whole novel earlier with casserole metaphors and tunic jokes and now all you got is "strawman" and a laughing emoji. That's what happens when someone actually pins you down on your own logic. You go quiet.
Don't be mad because I just took the ball and dunked on your ass, allowing my nuts to smack your forehead as I did so.
Ouch! I feel a bit bruised after that. I apologize in advance for formatting errors as I am copy/pasting from my phone Notes app. I have tried correcting the vast majority of them but it is getting tiring.
A couple Non Bible historical evidences
Irenaeus - Against Heresies 5.29 - 2nd century: And therefor when in the end the church shall be suddenly caught up from this. It is said there shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning neither shall be. For this this is the last contest of the righteous for when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Ephraim 4th century - “On the Last Times” - See that the sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares woe to those who desire to see of the Day of the Lord. For all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion overwhelm the world because of our sins.
Apostolic Bretheren 13th/14th centuries.
The History of Brother Galsino
Dispensationalism before Darby
Ancient Dispensationalism
Alas. You requested only Bible references so take the following Biblical references under consideration…
The Rapture is biblical doctrine.
1A) a foundational doctrine in the New Testament
Titus 2:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Arpazzo- To be seized or extracted forcefully
1B) Why does the Rapture need to happen? It is a church event. Predominately gentile event.
Jesus welcomes the church to heaven. John 14:1-3
Revelation 4:1 John sees an open door in heaven and hears a voice sounding like a trumpet, come up here and I will show you things that happen after this. The church, bride of Christ, is not on earth and not spoken of again until Chapter 19 when they are in heaven.
It marks the completion of the church’s work. Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost to build the church and finishes by presenting the church to Christ at his appearing. Jude 1:24-25
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8A Holy Spirit steps aside and fills the 144,000 witnesses (Jews). Then the AC is revealed after the rapture of the church.
1C) What purpose does the Rapture serve?
Serves as an Exhortation to all believers to be watchful and ready. Paul says “we who are alive and remain” Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.
Consummation of the church: 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Fulfills the promises of God to deliver us from THE WRATH to come.
1 Thessalonians Paul teaches the predestination based upon the foreknowledge of God and the rapture.
2 Thessalonians came out of fear that Thessalonica missed the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Enoch was raptured.
Elijah was raptured
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
What will be the characteristics of the Rapture?
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2A) How will the Rapture happen? 1 Corinthians 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump…
2B) What will happen to those left behind? 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
When will the rapture happen? 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Differences between Pre and Rapture. One umbrella covers both. Each one is from its own perspective. Bride of Christ (the church) it is an imminent event with no prerequisites and for Tribulation saints (not members of the body of the church) there are prerequisits.
The Rapture:
Christ appears in the air for His church
The catching up of all believers takes place
The church age believers are taken to the Father’s house in Heaven
There is no judgement that takes place on earth
The church is physically gathered
Only the rapture is taught as being imminent.
There are no signs preceding it
Will only involve believers
It is a time of great joy and rejoicing
Happens before the tribulation period
There is no mention of satan
Only those looking for him will see him
The tribulation begins
Takes us to the marriage of Lamb and bride
There is a metamorphosis to all believers
The second coming:
Christ returns to earth with his church
No one is caught anywhere
Believers are not taken to the Father’s house in heaven
Christ judges all inhabitants of the earth
Jesus Christ gathers the nations on to judge
Happens for at least 7 years later
There are 100’s of signs
Affects all of humanity
It is time of violence
It happens immediately after the the tribulation period
Satan bound for a thousand years
Then every eye will see him
The tribulation ends
Jesus Christ and the bride descending
It happens immediately after the tribulation period, so no metamorphosis?
26 in secret chambers believe it not (not secret, private, or mysterious)
30 shall see Son of man coming (public)
1Cor 15 (Pre-Trib)
51 Behold I show you a mystery (not previously known but Jesus already spoke of rapture in Mat 24) Paul is speaking of a separate, rightly divided, rapture or he is a liar. (Private)
Paul’s mystery-We are Changed
1 Corinthians 15:49-51
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
“The last trump” Trumpet is used 61 times. Trumpets 51 times. Trump is only used 2 times, In the verses above. Those are the only two passages that speak about this event. Not a coincidence. This is how you compare scripture with scripture. So you can know these passages are connected with each other but separate from other events. KJV is the only translation that makes this distinction. All others change Trump to trumpet or trumpets creating confusion. There are many different trumpets. You must rightly divide this.
Difference between 2nd advent and mystery changed: 2nd advent is for the Jews and the mystery changed is for the Body of Christ (BOC). 2nd Advent = Jesus’ 2nd time on earth and is prophesied to happen after the great tribulation to establish His kingdom. The great tribulation applies to the Jews. Jeremiah 1st advent is what the gospels are about.
Mystery changed we meet Jesus in the air. Not on earth.
The great tribulation is God’s wrath dispensed to the Jews for their unbelief. BOC have already been forgiven and are with Jesus in Heaven.
The 2nd advent has signs and prophecy that must happen before it takes place.
The mystery changed has no prophetic qualifiers.
Rev 5 (tribulation starts in 6)
9 The redeemed sing a new song in heaven before tribulation begins. (Redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation) all Christians
10 made us into our God kings and priests (all Christians)
Rev 1
5 Unto Him that loved “us” and washed “us” from our sins (all Christians)
6 made us priests and kings (all Christians)
All Christians are up in heaven before tribulation starts.
Jer 30
7 Alas that day is great so that none is like it, it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble. (Israel’s trouble)
Rom 11
25 blindness of Israel until the fullness of the gentiles (blindness until God is done dealing with the rest of the world whole world, gentiles first)
26 and so all Israel “shall be” (future) saved…the Deliverer, and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 covenant unto them…”shall” (future) take away their sins. (A national Jewish salvation. The church is already saved from sin. We don’t have to wait till tribulation to be saved.)
Dan 9
:27 and He shall confirm the covenant with many for 1 week. (7 year tribulation)
:24 70 weeks determined upon “thy” people and upon “thy” holy city to finish the transgression, and to make of sins (Christian’s sins don’t take 70 weeks to be forgiven? No.)
:25-26 7 weeks and three score and 2 weeks and after three score and 2 weeks (69 weeks + Jesus + 1 week-tribulation :27)
2Thes 2 ( used as proof text of no pre-trib but…)
:1 Coming of Christ “and our gathering.” (2 events)
:2 …not be shaken… that the Day of Christ “is at hand” (cannot happen at any moment? Cause of :3. Paul is saying don’t let anyone deceive you that the rapture is already here/happened. People were worried they missed it. That is the context for :3) 2nd coming.
:3 that day shall not come until falling away first (falling away is underway now) and man of sin revealed. (Antichrist) 2 coming.
:8 …shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2nd coming.
Rom 13
:11 knowing the time that is now…salvation nearer than we believed.
:12 night is far spent, the “day IS at hand” (contradiction? No, “any moment”)
At hand has two meanings, any moment and already here.
2Thes 1
:8 …taking vengeance on “them that know not God, and that obey not” the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Believers are already in heaven)
:10-12 speaks to the unbelievers in the tribulation, it is addressed to them and they (others), not we (us believers).
:13 but we (us believers) are bound to give thanks always to God…from the beginning chosen you to salvation
:14 …to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 3
:4 When Christ , who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear with Him in glory.
:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (With Christ in heaven).
Tribulation = hardship. Believers are in tribulation right now.
Rev2
:10 …tribulation 10 days…(tribulation is not 10 days long) this tribulation is general hardship.
:21 For then shall be “great tribulation” such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , nor shall ever be. The 7 year tribulation is far worse and separate from any “previous tribulation.”
Jesus and Paul teach Pre-Trib
1Thes 5
:4 ye “bretheren are not” in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (Not overtaken unawares)
:7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night and they that are drunken are drunk at night. (Believers are not drunken)
:9-10 …not appointed to wrath, but obtain salvation…awake or asleep we should live together with Him. (Believers are not appointed)
Luk21
:21 Then let them which are IN Judaea
:22 …days of vengeance…
:23 …in those days! For there shall be great distress and “wrath” upon His people.
:34 take heed to yourselves, lest any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
:35 for as a snare shall it come upon them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
:36 Watch ye therefor, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man.
I have a bit more but honestly if you even gotten this far, and you still aren’t influenced then why bother.
We shall have a laugh together when we meet in Heaven. All that matters is that we get there. The specific events or the order in which they happen are fun to discuss and debate but of little importance in the grand scheme of our salvation. Be well brother!
I'm super busy. I don't have time to go through all your presuppositions and misconceptions but you are not taking historical events into account and it's leaving you to massive errors.
Futurism is kissing cousins with premillennial dispensationalism.
If you study historical events and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Rome's armies in 70 AD and during the camp that the book of Revelation was written prior to 70AD everything lines up IMO.
Jesus even said this generation shall not pass till all these things take place and 70 AD was within that generation.
There's two books that I really recommend to dive into this...
Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation
Book by Kenneth Gentry
And
He Shall Have Dominion: A Postmillennial Eschatology
Book by Kenneth Gentry
I also recommend:
The mission of God by Dr Joe Boot
Thanks fren, I'll look into these. I am of the belief that Futurism was created by the Jesuits during the Counter-Reformation to take the pressure off the papacy and to confuse the protestors. I also think Dispensationalism depends on it, so I look at it like the 'mother' of Dispensationalism.
I bounced a few prompts off an AI after reading your reply and think I've finally found a label for what my view is: Post-millennial Historicist
I know people like to blame dispensationalism on the Rockefeller and Darby and such but dispensationalism goes all the way back to the 1st century church fathers. Irenaeus wrote about dispensations. Pre-Trib rapture was a common belief in the early church. There’s even a book titled Dispensationalism Before Darby that shows this research.
You should really look into the things you comment on and not just regurgitate ignorant Tik Tok and Insta posts. The Rockefellers this, Scholfield that. Pfft! Give it a break.
(spelling edit).
Lol oh son.... I don't watch tiktoks, I study theology, theonomy, and church history.
Oh good, you have arrived at the “Irenaeus had a Scofield Reference Bible in Greek” stage of stupidity.
Let’s tidy this up before someone starts claiming the Didache had footnotes on the gap theory.
Yes. And?
The word dispensation comes from oikonomia. It simply means administration or stewardship. The apostle Paul uses it in Ephesians 1:10.
Using the word is not the same thing as teaching a fully formed 19th century dispensational system with:
A hard Israel–Church dichotomy
A parenthetical Church age
A secret pre-tribulation rapture
A restored temple with reinstituted sacrifices
That is like saying because someone in the first century used the word “catholic” they must have meant the entire doctrinal package of the 16th century Council of Trent. Words travel. Systems develop.
Irenaeus talked about stages in redemptive history. So did Augustine. So did everybody with a pulse and a Bible. That does not make them Darbyites in sandals.
Common? That is a strong word for something that requires squinting at a handful of ambiguous lines and pretending they are PowerPoint slides from the Plymouth Brethren annual conference.
The early church was broadly premillennial for a time. Fine. But a secret, pre-tribulation rapture where Christ comes halfway back, does a spiritual U-turn, and then returns again seven years later? That is not sitting there in the fathers like a forgotten casserole.
The burden of proof is not “I found a sentence that sounds rapture-ish.” The burden is showing a coherent pre-trib system. That system crystalizes in the 19th century under John Nelson Darby. That is not TikTok. That is church history.
And invoking the book Dispensationalism Before Darby does not magically transport Scofield notes into the second century. It attempts to show precursors and similar themes. Precursors are not the same thing as full-blown theology with charts.
If finding a few thematic similarities proves identity, then Augustine was basically a Presbyterian with a Geneva Study Bible tucked under his robe.
Now, about the Rockefellers. It is entirely possible to reject conspiracy lore without pretending Darby fell out of the sky in A.D. 95. The popularization of dispensationalism in America absolutely involved:
Cyrus I. Scofield
His reference Bible
Wealthy patrons and publishing networks. (Which the Rockefellers were certainly a major player whether you like it or not)
That is not a secret handshake theory. It is how ideas spread. Through money, printing presses, and institutions. Always has been.
But even if you remove every Rockefeller from the equation, you still do not get a first century pre-trib system. You get strands of futurism and millennial expectation. Not the chart.
The question is not “Did anyone before Darby believe in stages of history?” Of course they did.
The question is “Did the early church teach a secret pre-tribulation rapture distinct from the visible second coming?”
The historical answer is no. Not clearly. Not systemically. Not in the way modern dispensationalism requires.
So before accusing others of regurgitating Instagram theology, it might help to distinguish between:
Shared vocabulary
Shared themes
Fully developed theological systems
Otherwise you are basically arguing that because someone in the early church believed Jesus would return, they must have had a prophecy conference schedule tucked into their tunic.
If you want to argue for dispensationalism from Scripture, go for it. But trying to baptize it in second century water as if it were always there just makes you look like you are retrofitting Darby with a time machine.
Do better son.
Dude. You came in here yelling about Rockefellers and Jewish lies and now you're writing a whole Wikipedia article about Greek words. Which one are you? The conspiracy guy or the scholar? Because those are two different people and you switched real quick when someone called you on it.
Nobody said Irenaeus had a Scofield Bible. Nobody. Point out where either Rando or Military said that. They didn't, you made that up so you could dunk on it. That's like me arguing with my kids about something they never said. Cool, you won a fight with yourself.
And this whole "precursors aren't systems" thing. Yeah no kidding. When did your boy Rushdoony put theonomy together, the 70s? That's like five minutes ago. But somehow that's legit and dispensationalism is a fraud because it was systematized in the 1800s. Make it make sense.
You blew right past Pseudo-Ephraem too. Just acted like that part wasn't there. For a church history guy that's a weird thing to just skip over. But I get it. Hard to deal with.
And the whole tone. The "oh son" stuff. The casserole line. The tunic joke. Bro you're trying way too hard. You sound like a youth pastor who just discovered sarcasm. You started this thread with the worst take in the room and now you're doing victory laps. For what exactly?
Bring Scripture or bring nothing. The rest of this is just you being in love with how you sound.
Do yourself a favor and sit down, before you embarrass yourself further.
That's your reply? That's what you came back with? Three lines and an emoji? You just wrote a whole novel earlier with casserole metaphors and tunic jokes and now all you got is "strawman" and a laughing emoji. That's what happens when someone actually pins you down on your own logic. You go quiet.
Don't be mad because I just took the ball and dunked on your ass, allowing my nuts to smack your forehead as I did so.
I love this post so bigly.
Daaaaamnnn
Ouch! I feel a bit bruised after that. I apologize in advance for formatting errors as I am copy/pasting from my phone Notes app. I have tried correcting the vast majority of them but it is getting tiring.
A couple Non Bible historical evidences
Irenaeus - Against Heresies 5.29 - 2nd century: And therefor when in the end the church shall be suddenly caught up from this. It is said there shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning neither shall be. For this this is the last contest of the righteous for when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Ephraim 4th century - “On the Last Times” - See that the sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares woe to those who desire to see of the Day of the Lord. For all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion overwhelm the world because of our sins.
Apostolic Bretheren 13th/14th centuries.
Dispensationalism before Darby
Ancient Dispensationalism
Alas. You requested only Bible references so take the following Biblical references under consideration…
1A) a foundational doctrine in the New Testament
1B) Why does the Rapture need to happen? It is a church event. Predominately gentile event.
Jesus welcomes the church to heaven. John 14:1-3
It marks the completion of the church’s work. Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost to build the church and finishes by presenting the church to Christ at his appearing. Jude 1:24-25
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8A Holy Spirit steps aside and fills the 144,000 witnesses (Jews). Then the AC is revealed after the rapture of the church.
1C) What purpose does the Rapture serve?
Serves as an Exhortation to all believers to be watchful and ready. Paul says “we who are alive and remain” Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.
Consummation of the church: 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Fulfills the promises of God to deliver us from THE WRATH to come.
1 Thessalonians Paul teaches the predestination based upon the foreknowledge of God and the rapture.
2 Thessalonians came out of fear that Thessalonica missed the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Enoch was raptured.
Elijah was raptured
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2A) How will the Rapture happen? 1 Corinthians 15:51-52a Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump…
2B) What will happen to those left behind? 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
When will the rapture happen? 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Differences between Pre and Rapture. One umbrella covers both. Each one is from its own perspective. Bride of Christ (the church) it is an imminent event with no prerequisites and for Tribulation saints (not members of the body of the church) there are prerequisits.
The Rapture:
Christ appears in the air for His church
The catching up of all believers takes place
The church age believers are taken to the Father’s house in Heaven
There is no judgement that takes place on earth
The church is physically gathered
Only the rapture is taught as being imminent.
There are no signs preceding it
Will only involve believers
It is a time of great joy and rejoicing
Happens before the tribulation period
There is no mention of satan
Only those looking for him will see him
The tribulation begins
Takes us to the marriage of Lamb and bride
There is a metamorphosis to all believers
The second coming:
Christ returns to earth with his church
No one is caught anywhere
Believers are not taken to the Father’s house in heaven
Christ judges all inhabitants of the earth
Jesus Christ gathers the nations on to judge
Happens for at least 7 years later
There are 100’s of signs
Affects all of humanity
It is time of violence
It happens immediately after the the tribulation period
Satan bound for a thousand years
Then every eye will see him
The tribulation ends
Jesus Christ and the bride descending
It happens immediately after the tribulation period, so no metamorphosis?
Hebrews 9:28 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Philippians 3:20 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, 4
1 Thessalonians 4
Mat 24 (speaks of 2nd advent)
1Cor 15 (Pre-Trib)
Paul’s mystery-We are Changed
Rev 5 (tribulation starts in 6)
Jer 30
Rom 11
Dan 9
2Thes 2 ( used as proof text of no pre-trib but…)
Rom 13
2Thes 1
Col 3
Tribulation = hardship. Believers are in tribulation right now.
Rev2
See next post…
Continued…
Mat24
Jesus and Paul teach Pre-Trib
1Thes 5
:4 ye “bretheren are not” in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (Not overtaken unawares)
:7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night and they that are drunken are drunk at night. (Believers are not drunken)
:9-10 …not appointed to wrath, but obtain salvation…awake or asleep we should live together with Him. (Believers are not appointed)
Luk21
:21 Then let them which are IN Judaea
:22 …days of vengeance…
:23 …in those days! For there shall be great distress and “wrath” upon His people.
:34 take heed to yourselves, lest any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
:35 for as a snare shall it come upon them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
:36 Watch ye therefor, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man.
I have a bit more but honestly if you even gotten this far, and you still aren’t influenced then why bother.
We shall have a laugh together when we meet in Heaven. All that matters is that we get there. The specific events or the order in which they happen are fun to discuss and debate but of little importance in the grand scheme of our salvation. Be well brother!
Numbersz 6:24-26.
I'm super busy. I don't have time to go through all your presuppositions and misconceptions but you are not taking historical events into account and it's leaving you to massive errors.
I'll end with this recommendation....
https://a.co/d/0ed7Vh5n
Vewy nice! How about Futurism itself?
Futurism is kissing cousins with premillennial dispensationalism.
If you study historical events and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Rome's armies in 70 AD and during the camp that the book of Revelation was written prior to 70AD everything lines up IMO.
Jesus even said this generation shall not pass till all these things take place and 70 AD was within that generation.
There's two books that I really recommend to dive into this...
Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation Book by Kenneth Gentry
And
He Shall Have Dominion: A Postmillennial Eschatology Book by Kenneth Gentry
I also recommend: The mission of God by Dr Joe Boot
You can watch it phenomenal interview with him about Post millennialism here - https://youtu.be/liZMFqFi5nA?si=r9MUZT_r3YnlCCCe
Thanks fren, I'll look into these. I am of the belief that Futurism was created by the Jesuits during the Counter-Reformation to take the pressure off the papacy and to confuse the protestors. I also think Dispensationalism depends on it, so I look at it like the 'mother' of Dispensationalism.
I bounced a few prompts off an AI after reading your reply and think I've finally found a label for what my view is: Post-millennial Historicist