Its really simple Christ said, at the last Trump, (as in trumpet blast number 7) the dead in Christ shall rise and all who remain shall be risen and changed in the twinkling of an eye and shall rise up to meet Christ in the "AIR" at his return.
When crossed referenced with Revelations prophecies of the seventh trumpet blast you see it is clearly at the end of the Tribulation period, not in the middle or before.
But as old pastors used to say, pray for pre but prepare for post.
Clement sure has made some amazing predictions that came true.
He's also been WRONG.
The fact that he HAS made some amazing predictions but struck out on others? Indicates serious potential that he has had a spiritual SOMEBODY whispering in his ear, but not the God of the Bible.
Thats the conclusion you'd draw if you believed that true prophets of God are never wrong.
Correct. As if it were a trumpet. It will be a loud shout from the Angel. You have to remember John is describing things he has seen in the spirit that cannot be seen in human flesh. Some of revelation is hyperbole and some is litteral. He had to describe things in a way that their current vernacular at that time would understand. How was he to explain an airplane in 70AD?
But what is the biblical standard of death? "Leave the dead to bury their own dead, and follow me".
Regarding the scriptures about the dead rising in the air:
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
The "waters" here is a symbol of people, of multitudes.
What happens to water when it evaporates? It purifies, and becomes clouds.
Heb 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight
A 'cloud' of witnesses. Here, again, 'cloud' refers to people.
When scripture says that Christ returns on the clouds, it does not mean that Christ will return in the sky, up at the stratosphere, but rather, than when Christ returns, his return will first of all resurrect a number of people and purify them, and then surrounded by them, Christ will then reach out to all the world.
Rising into the air can easily be understood as a metaphor for spiritually being elevated through unity with Christ when he returns.
The 7th trumpet happens mid trib. Right after the abomination of desolation. Just prior to the vials of wrath being pored out. So many have confused the tribulation of saints or persecution of the church with Gods wrath being poured out. They are two separate things. The antichrist will make war on the church but gods wrath is pored out after he gathers the saints. I have studied this subject more than anything else in my entire 40 years on this earth. C.I. Scofeild and John Darby were heretics.
No, it was started by a Jesuit infiltrator into the protestant church, named John Nelson Darby, who came up with the doctrine while recovering from a horse riding accident, which gave him time to study while in convalescence.
But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.
Darby actually got it from a Scottish teenaged girl, a Catholic mystic. Darby then brought it to the US.
Interesting that his contemporary, Charles Spurgeon, never preached the rapture. EVER.
John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, John Wesley....NONE taught rapture doctrine. Because it wasn't invented yet.
I recommend the History of the New Testament Church, volumes 1 and 2, written by Dr. Peter Ruckman. Pretribulation rapture has been around longer than the catholic church has.
Bingo. And Darby ran with it and c.I. Scofeild thought he would get rich by writing a reference Bible that infiltrated all of American Baptist colleges. The reference and chain bibles need to be thrown out. Context is everything.
Nope. Early biblical scholars understood the rapture to be true. Read the early church father’s writings. This has actually been “debunked” by knowledgable biblical scholars. Chuck Missler for instance.
I don’t know why this anon is so invested in trying to change rapture views.
As dark as things are I don't think we are near end times at all.
Every 80 years or so we go through some event that everyone believes is the end times (jews believe it was end times during Hitler, etc...)
If Q is real and the plan plays out I DOUBT it is end times. If he isn't real and the NWO goes full speed ahead we are probably 40 to 80 years out from what will seem like end times. They have been going as hard as they possibly can for multiple decades now and still are a LONG way from the end game with people waking rapidly.
Never understood rapture talk or how it tied to the Bible or most especially how people can be so adamant about when it will occur. Thank you for the thorough post.
Revelation 4 KJV 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Before the seals are opened, 1) a door opened into Heaven, 2) the voice of a trumpet sounding, 3) Christ on His throne, not on Earth.
Revelation 5 KJV 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD
In Heaven, before the seals opened, with Christ. Who is redeemed by the blood but believers?
My brother once told me to not worry about the future, but to keep my focus on Jesus. He said if I did that, that was the best I can do. It is Biblical also to not worry, as Jesus himself taught that.
Interestingly, I read John 17 this week where Jesus prayed for his own...including his own from beginning to end. He said He had not lost one except the one doomed to destruction so that prophesy would be fulfilled (Judas Iscariot). Since He is Allknowing, I believe He knows his own even before we do.
I also sought out what Charles Spurgeon preached about John 17:20. In his sermon 3133, he confirmed my belief that God knows his own, that God and Jesus are infinite (outside of time and space--eternal), and that God loves us so much that his Son intervenes for us sinners of His own constantly. It is a really good sermon (though long), worthy of reading and considering. Link To the pdf of it: https://www.thekingdomcollective.com/spurgeon/sermon/3133/
So what am I to do?
Keep focus on Christ. He promises he will not leave us as orphans. He has prepared a place for us.
Do not worry about the future. This is hard. But if we fully believe what Jesus promised, not really. Because God sends His Holy Spirit of TRUTH to remind us.
Praise GOD daily with sincerity and thankfulness. God is trustworthy (The only One). God is faithful. God provides the Way.
Read God's Word with open eyes, mind, and heart. Let God lead me to understanding, because it comes from God.
Seek to understand by applying what I learn from God. He is still at work in this world. In many ways. OP's post+all these comments may be one of them.
Just my experiential truth and belief.
"My peace I give to you. I do not give as the world gives.". Jesus said this to His own in John 14. It means a lot.
Steven anderson is pretty spot on
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEmijWNNU32ppOxxGZYr1AArvhjgChQFl
Also look up his documentary called after the rapture.
Also American gospel is a great documentary that explains why this false teaching is so dangerous. It has led to a nation full of unbelief’s from those who claim to believe.
A rapture will take place but not when most have been led to believe. The rapture will happen just after the abomination of desolation witching a 75 day period of time. The antichrist will be making war with the saints and be heading them for not taking his mark. Then at a time unknown to all but God himself, the sun and moon will be darkened and in the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ will be raised ( raptured) ( into a spiritual body as Adam was in in the garden and as Christ was in after the resurrection where we put on immortal incorruptible in exchange for mortal and corruptible) and Christ will send the Angels to gather all who are alive and remain (saints that is). The rapture will be as in the days of Noah. Noah and his family were the ones left behind to replenish the earth. It was the rest who were taken away by the flood. False teachers teach this because they are to lazy to seek out the truth of scripture and only go along with what they were taught in seminary. There will be a rapture but it is not what we’ve all been told and we humans are destined for this earth as we were created and formed from the earth so we will be the earth.
This is the most important subject the church should be researching because it has led to false docterine and churches saying we should just love everybody.
We are not all Gods children. That is a LIE!
The concept of the rapture has resulted from confusion about the meaning of resurrection. The teachings of the Gospels discuss many aspects of life in terms of metaphor, parable and symbol, but when those teachings are interpreted literally, confusion abounds.
To resolve the issue of what scripture refers to and what some folks believe points to the Rapture, its critical to examine what resurrection actually is, based on scripture.
Resurrection means passing from death to life, but, what is the biblical meaning or biblical standard of 'death'?
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Here, Jesus is clearly referring to two different types of death: one, "the dead" = the spiritually dead, and two, "the dead" = the physically dead.
The Father had died physically, but those who were to bury him were (still) dead spiritually, because they had not accepted Jesus.
Physical death is where the body's physiological function ceases, and the spirit/soul departs from the flesh.
Spiritual death, however, is where someone is cut off from God's love, living spiritual under the influence and control of Satan's sovereignty.
This understanding is affirmed in Rev. 1:20 I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
John 5:26 I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
What is Jesus telling us? That he who believes in Jesus, though he may die physically, he shall still live spiritually (be removed from Satan's dominion, and dwell with me spiritually in God's sovereignty).
Which was the death caused by the Fall? Here's what scripture records God said to Adam:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
"In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die". Did Adam die that day? Not physically. Adam went on to have children, and lived many years.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
So, how can it be that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit, and yet lived for 900+ years afterwards? Simply, because the death God was referring to was NOT a physical death, but a spiritual death.
God was warning Adam that if he ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he would become separated from Him, become cut off from his ability to receive God's love, and fall under Satan's control.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
According to this biblical standard of life and death, life is when one dwells in God's presence, having been restored to the realm of God's sovereignty, and therefore naturally connected with God's love. The biblical standard of death is when one dwells under Satan's dominion and jurisdiction, cut off from God's love.
What, then, is resurrection?
Many believers, particularly in recent centuries, interpreted the death of the Fall of Adam to be the physical death. But clearly, the disciples and Jesus himself often emphasized a distinction between the physical death and being spiritually dead.
Resurrection is the process of passing from the spiritual death caused by the Fall, in other words the state of being under Satan's jurisdiction and therefore cut off from God's love, the source of spiritual life, to the realm of life, where one lives under God's sovereignty and is able to receive God's love.
Our spirits and hearts are created to grow through a relationship with God's love. By receiving God's love, and practicing God's love in our lives, our spirits and our hearts grow. As we dwell in a relationship with the Father, made possible because we leave the realm of death through faith in Jesus and enter into the realm of spiritual life, our hearts and our spirits grow.
From this viewpoint, resurrection is not simply an instantaneous event, but an ongoing process that starts once we accept Jesus into our hearts. We resurrect more and more as we draw closer to Jesus and the Father.
John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
In other words, he who hears Jesus words and believes in him, becomes reconnected to the source of all life, God the Father, and is no longer subject the judgment that will befall those who remain in Satan's jurisdiction. He has literally passed from a state of spiritual death to a state of spiritual life. He has been resurrected.
Resurrection is not the recomposition of the physical body, but is the spiritual and internal (aka not visible to the physical eye) transition from being under Satan's dominion and control to being under God's domain and jurisdiction. It is not an external change, but an internal one.
Jesus himself was perfectly in union with the Father, and yet, externally he looked just like any other man to everyone around him.
Based on the biblical standard of life and death, we can understand that when Christ returns, "the dead who rise in Christ" refers to those who will receive Christ when he returns and are resurrected into the realm of unity with God.
Resurrection before and after the Return of Christ
Before the return of Christ, our resurrection is necessarily limited, because our bodies remain in the realm of death. We do not escape sin completely. But when Christ returns, the people who are alive physically at that time (and all generations thereafter) will have their flesh also restored to God's sovereignty. Thus, following the Return of Christ, complete and perfect resurrection will be possible.
(Note: Although we receive salvation through faith in Jesus, aka our spirits are restored to God's sovereignty, our flesh remains under Satan's jurisdiction. For example, see Romans 7:24, in which Paul laments: O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? This is why the Second Coming is necessary: the restore the physical world, and our physical bodies, to God's sovereignty, so that the Kingdom of God is BOTH in Heaven AND on Earth.)
The word "rapture" may not be in the Bible, but "translated" is in Hebrews 11:5. The Greek word (metatithemi) means, according to the Complete Word Study Bible, change of place or condition. To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport. This is an explanation of Enoch's experience in Genesis 5:24. According to Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated because he had obtained the testimony that he pleased God. Similarly, verse 6 says that we must believe that God rewards those who diligently seek Him. This definitely indicates that Enoch's "translation" which is a synonym for rapture, was a reward, not an entitlement, simply because he believed that "God is." I do not believe that every believer is entitled to be raptured, but is for those who have obtained the testimony that they are pleasing to God. "Therefore also we are determined, whether at home or abroad, to gain the honor of being well pleasing to Him." IICorinthians 5:9
Acts1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Mixed. Many writes over many years employed many forms of literary devices. Context is king.
From various angles a general case could be made that Samuel, Jonah, Lazarus, Jesus, and a few children all "came back" depending on what you mean. Edit to add that Paul also had an Anon friend he might boast about...
Mankind tends to make much of ourselves and our comforts especially in the seemingly more prosperous times and developed places. Sufferings are experiences designed to understand wholeness in Christ. Wanting to escape pain is natural. Knowing the Savior through the pain is supernatural. Experiencing the wholeness of "rejoicing in sufferings" is glorious.
If you look closely at the scripture you quoted, it's actually deceptively complex. On face value, it seems to say one thing, but on another, it says something completely different.
Consider: the Angel is asking the men "Why are you standing here looking into heaven?"
The question implies that looking up into heaven is an unreasonable action.
"Why are you standing here looking into heaven (as if you expect Jesus to return this way)?"
The issue is that the word heaven is used in multiple ways in scripture.
There is the literal 'heaven', meaning the sky, the upper atmosphere, including the stratosphere, etc., or even outer space, where the stars exist.
There is also the metaphorical use of 'heaven', meaning the spiritual realm where God's presence dwells, signifying an elevated spiritual dimension.
Confusion over which is which is the cause of much theological confusion. This is understandable if you consider that people in Jesus day really had no scientific understanding of the former, and also limited grasp of the latter. (to a great extent, our scientific grasp of the nature of the spiritual realms etc, is just as limited as their scientific grasp of the nature of the material realms.)
"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." I guess there are some who think that God literally lives in the sky, but by far the more coherent idea is that Heaven here refers to the elevates spiritual realm where God dwells, and Earth refers to the material realm, aka the Physical universe.
Just as a human being has a mind (internal quality, invisible, subjective) and a body (external form, visible, objective), likewise the universe is comprised of the spiritual world (internal, invisible, subjective) and the physical world (external, visible, objective).
"This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
We know through scripture that Jesus was perfected through his life and his sufferings. He was born pure, but not perfect, in the sense that perfect means fully and completely mature. (We can, however, say that Jesus was born perfect In the sense that a seed is perfect, i.e. without blemish, even if it is not fully developed and mature).
From this perspective, Jesus "going into heaven" was a process that happened over the course of his natural life, as he matured into perfect union with the Father. Is the Angel saying: "why are you looking up to the sky? Jesus will return in the way that he grew into oneness with the Father, through a natural life in his flesh in the material realm." Otherwise, it's hard to logically explain why the angel questions their standing their gawking into the sky.
From various angles a general case could be made that Samuel, Jonah, Lazarus, Jesus, and a few children all "came back" depending on what you mean.
OK. None of those is what I mean. I mean, "coming back" in the sense that someone lived on Earth, then died, then was prophesied to return at some future date, and then did. Aka a second coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Meeting in the air is clearly different from The Lord Jesus Christ standing on Mount Zion.
The SOLE PURPOSE of the tribulation is to restore the nation of Israel. You can read any Old Testament prophecy for details.
The SOLE PURPOSE of the age of Grace is God's will to create the body of Christ, a people with the mind of Christ and the glorified body of Christ who serve God as Kings and Priests. They abode in the New Jerusalem where there is no sun because God is the light. Where there is no temple because God is the Temple.
The restored nation of Israel is the kingdom of Heaven, a physical kingdom on Earth, with a physical temple, where physical sacrifices take place and the people eat from a physical tree of life to stay alive. Ezekiel 40-48 tells quite clearly of THEIR future. The body of Christ MINISTERS to these people. They are caught up into Heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins and return with Christ at the 2nd Advent, His angels.
Tribulation doctrine is a faith and works based salvation. The church age is faith alone. Your CHOICE on whether you wish to attend the tribulations or not. Believe that the blood atonement of Christ paid for your sins and there is NOTHING you can do to save yourself, you will be spared the tribulation. Why would believers need to be ruled with a rod of iron? It's too simple to understand, I guess.
This is rome's new tact. All of the reformation saints believed in a pre tribulation doctrine and they all believed that the pope was an antiChrist, Luther, Wycliff, Tyndale, all of them. rome is trying to muddy the waters, lying like their father.
We could go on and on scripture after scripture. My favorite on is “those who are alive and remain will be caught up at the last Trump after the sun and moon are darkened. Well how does this happen if we are all gone already? C.I. Scofeild and John Darby were heretics!
Its really simple Christ said, at the last Trump, (as in trumpet blast number 7) the dead in Christ shall rise and all who remain shall be risen and changed in the twinkling of an eye and shall rise up to meet Christ in the "AIR" at his return.
When crossed referenced with Revelations prophecies of the seventh trumpet blast you see it is clearly at the end of the Tribulation period, not in the middle or before.
But as old pastors used to say, pray for pre but prepare for post.
The last trump before the tribulation? Last chance?
I have wondered on that play of words, The last Trump, I find it auspicious, if not ominous as coincidence given our current time line.
Kim Clement said Trump will be God's Trumpet.
Be careful of modern day profits and their new revelations.
Look up Amos 3:7
God tells his saints what he is going to do before doing it.
Clement sure has made some amazing predictions that came true.
He's also been WRONG.
The fact that he HAS made some amazing predictions but struck out on others? Indicates serious potential that he has had a spiritual SOMEBODY whispering in his ear, but not the God of the Bible.
Thats the conclusion you'd draw if you believed that true prophets of God are never wrong.
Which things did he get wrong?
Isn't that like a trumpet sound?
In Revelation, apostle John describes it as a voice that sounds like a trumpet. In this scripture, it just refers to the last trump.
thank Q :)
Correct. As if it were a trumpet. It will be a loud shout from the Angel. You have to remember John is describing things he has seen in the spirit that cannot be seen in human flesh. Some of revelation is hyperbole and some is litteral. He had to describe things in a way that their current vernacular at that time would understand. How was he to explain an airplane in 70AD?
When we are transformed we will no longer be in human flesh but in spiritual flesh just like Adam was in prior to Gods curse.
"The dead in Christ shall rise...."
But what is the biblical standard of death? "Leave the dead to bury their own dead, and follow me".
Regarding the scriptures about the dead rising in the air:
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
The "waters" here is a symbol of people, of multitudes.
What happens to water when it evaporates? It purifies, and becomes clouds.
Heb 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight
A 'cloud' of witnesses. Here, again, 'cloud' refers to people.
When scripture says that Christ returns on the clouds, it does not mean that Christ will return in the sky, up at the stratosphere, but rather, than when Christ returns, his return will first of all resurrect a number of people and purify them, and then surrounded by them, Christ will then reach out to all the world.
Rising into the air can easily be understood as a metaphor for spiritually being elevated through unity with Christ when he returns.
The 7th trumpet happens mid trib. Right after the abomination of desolation. Just prior to the vials of wrath being pored out. So many have confused the tribulation of saints or persecution of the church with Gods wrath being poured out. They are two separate things. The antichrist will make war on the church but gods wrath is pored out after he gathers the saints. I have studied this subject more than anything else in my entire 40 years on this earth. C.I. Scofeild and John Darby were heretics.
Tribulation = thelipsis = mental pressures
The word is the same word as stepping on grapes in a wine pit.
Persecution of the church
The rapture story is only 160 odd years old, it started in America around 1860 on the east coast. Source: The History of God by Karen Armstrong.
No, it was started by a Jesuit infiltrator into the protestant church, named John Nelson Darby, who came up with the doctrine while recovering from a horse riding accident, which gave him time to study while in convalescence.
Darby didn't start anything. The apostle Paul did.
Paul did not start the pre trib rapture doctrine. That was an 19th century invention of John Nelson Darby.
Okay, bro
But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.
https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/
Again, catholic dogma, promulgated eventually into the Protestant church by Darby circa 1860-80 ish
Protestant church is still 90 percentnt Roman catholic in practice
Chuck Missler deep biblical dive on whether the rapture is true. 2hours.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lVcN9vsCbQ
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lVcN9vsCbQ
Yup.
Darby actually got it from a Scottish teenaged girl, a Catholic mystic. Darby then brought it to the US. Interesting that his contemporary, Charles Spurgeon, never preached the rapture. EVER.
John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, John Wesley....NONE taught rapture doctrine. Because it wasn't invented yet.
Darby did it. Paul’s writings are flawless.
I recommend the History of the New Testament Church, volumes 1 and 2, written by Dr. Peter Ruckman. Pretribulation rapture has been around longer than the catholic church has.
https://www.amazon.com/History-New-Testament-Church/dp/1580260748
Best 10 bucks you'll ever spend.
Bingo. And Darby ran with it and c.I. Scofeild thought he would get rich by writing a reference Bible that infiltrated all of American Baptist colleges. The reference and chain bibles need to be thrown out. Context is everything.
Nope. Early biblical scholars understood the rapture to be true. Read the early church father’s writings. This has actually been “debunked” by knowledgable biblical scholars. Chuck Missler for instance.
I don’t know why this anon is so invested in trying to change rapture views.
Because he is right
It's easy to think there is no such thing as a rapture as long as you ignore certain verses in revelation.
As dark as things are I don't think we are near end times at all. Every 80 years or so we go through some event that everyone believes is the end times (jews believe it was end times during Hitler, etc...)
If Q is real and the plan plays out I DOUBT it is end times. If he isn't real and the NWO goes full speed ahead we are probably 40 to 80 years out from what will seem like end times. They have been going as hard as they possibly can for multiple decades now and still are a LONG way from the end game with people waking rapidly.
Never understood rapture talk or how it tied to the Bible or most especially how people can be so adamant about when it will occur. Thank you for the thorough post.
Revelation 4 KJV 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Before the seals are opened, 1) a door opened into Heaven, 2) the voice of a trumpet sounding, 3) Christ on His throne, not on Earth.
Revelation 5 KJV 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD
In Heaven, before the seals opened, with Christ. Who is redeemed by the blood but believers?
Thank you, very informative and interesting I haven’t ever really believed in the rapture, and with your process here I see it. God bless ❤️
My brother once told me to not worry about the future, but to keep my focus on Jesus. He said if I did that, that was the best I can do. It is Biblical also to not worry, as Jesus himself taught that.
Interestingly, I read John 17 this week where Jesus prayed for his own...including his own from beginning to end. He said He had not lost one except the one doomed to destruction so that prophesy would be fulfilled (Judas Iscariot). Since He is Allknowing, I believe He knows his own even before we do.
I also sought out what Charles Spurgeon preached about John 17:20. In his sermon 3133, he confirmed my belief that God knows his own, that God and Jesus are infinite (outside of time and space--eternal), and that God loves us so much that his Son intervenes for us sinners of His own constantly. It is a really good sermon (though long), worthy of reading and considering. Link To the pdf of it: https://www.thekingdomcollective.com/spurgeon/sermon/3133/
So what am I to do?
Keep focus on Christ. He promises he will not leave us as orphans. He has prepared a place for us.
Do not worry about the future. This is hard. But if we fully believe what Jesus promised, not really. Because God sends His Holy Spirit of TRUTH to remind us.
Praise GOD daily with sincerity and thankfulness. God is trustworthy (The only One). God is faithful. God provides the Way.
Read God's Word with open eyes, mind, and heart. Let God lead me to understanding, because it comes from God.
Seek to understand by applying what I learn from God. He is still at work in this world. In many ways. OP's post+all these comments may be one of them.
Just my experiential truth and belief.
"My peace I give to you. I do not give as the world gives.". Jesus said this to His own in John 14. It means a lot.
Steven anderson is pretty spot on https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEmijWNNU32ppOxxGZYr1AArvhjgChQFl Also look up his documentary called after the rapture. Also American gospel is a great documentary that explains why this false teaching is so dangerous. It has led to a nation full of unbelief’s from those who claim to believe.
A rapture will take place but not when most have been led to believe. The rapture will happen just after the abomination of desolation witching a 75 day period of time. The antichrist will be making war with the saints and be heading them for not taking his mark. Then at a time unknown to all but God himself, the sun and moon will be darkened and in the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ will be raised ( raptured) ( into a spiritual body as Adam was in in the garden and as Christ was in after the resurrection where we put on immortal incorruptible in exchange for mortal and corruptible) and Christ will send the Angels to gather all who are alive and remain (saints that is). The rapture will be as in the days of Noah. Noah and his family were the ones left behind to replenish the earth. It was the rest who were taken away by the flood. False teachers teach this because they are to lazy to seek out the truth of scripture and only go along with what they were taught in seminary. There will be a rapture but it is not what we’ve all been told and we humans are destined for this earth as we were created and formed from the earth so we will be the earth.
Not the best summary. Lacks historical context but on the right track.
Yep. Another Jesuit created doctrine
This is the most important subject the church should be researching because it has led to false docterine and churches saying we should just love everybody. We are not all Gods children. That is a LIE!
Simply put, the rapture idea began in the mid 1800's. Why not several thousand years?
It's only popular among SOME Christians, and seems to be only in America.
Jesus comes twice. The rapture has Jesus coming THREE times??
It's really ill thought out heresy.
Agreed. You should watch Johnny and Elizabeth Enlow’s show ‘Restore7’ on Rumble. He breaks it down better than anyone
The concept of the rapture has resulted from confusion about the meaning of resurrection. The teachings of the Gospels discuss many aspects of life in terms of metaphor, parable and symbol, but when those teachings are interpreted literally, confusion abounds.
To resolve the issue of what scripture refers to and what some folks believe points to the Rapture, its critical to examine what resurrection actually is, based on scripture.
Resurrection means passing from death to life, but, what is the biblical meaning or biblical standard of 'death'?
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Here, Jesus is clearly referring to two different types of death: one, "the dead" = the spiritually dead, and two, "the dead" = the physically dead.
The Father had died physically, but those who were to bury him were (still) dead spiritually, because they had not accepted Jesus.
Physical death is where the body's physiological function ceases, and the spirit/soul departs from the flesh.
Spiritual death, however, is where someone is cut off from God's love, living spiritual under the influence and control of Satan's sovereignty.
This understanding is affirmed in Rev. 1:20 I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
John 5:26 I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
What is Jesus telling us? That he who believes in Jesus, though he may die physically, he shall still live spiritually (be removed from Satan's dominion, and dwell with me spiritually in God's sovereignty).
Which was the death caused by the Fall? Here's what scripture records God said to Adam:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
"In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die". Did Adam die that day? Not physically. Adam went on to have children, and lived many years.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
So, how can it be that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit, and yet lived for 900+ years afterwards? Simply, because the death God was referring to was NOT a physical death, but a spiritual death.
God was warning Adam that if he ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he would become separated from Him, become cut off from his ability to receive God's love, and fall under Satan's control.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
According to this biblical standard of life and death, life is when one dwells in God's presence, having been restored to the realm of God's sovereignty, and therefore naturally connected with God's love. The biblical standard of death is when one dwells under Satan's dominion and jurisdiction, cut off from God's love.
What, then, is resurrection?
Many believers, particularly in recent centuries, interpreted the death of the Fall of Adam to be the physical death. But clearly, the disciples and Jesus himself often emphasized a distinction between the physical death and being spiritually dead.
Resurrection is the process of passing from the spiritual death caused by the Fall, in other words the state of being under Satan's jurisdiction and therefore cut off from God's love, the source of spiritual life, to the realm of life, where one lives under God's sovereignty and is able to receive God's love.
Our spirits and hearts are created to grow through a relationship with God's love. By receiving God's love, and practicing God's love in our lives, our spirits and our hearts grow. As we dwell in a relationship with the Father, made possible because we leave the realm of death through faith in Jesus and enter into the realm of spiritual life, our hearts and our spirits grow.
From this viewpoint, resurrection is not simply an instantaneous event, but an ongoing process that starts once we accept Jesus into our hearts. We resurrect more and more as we draw closer to Jesus and the Father.
John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
In other words, he who hears Jesus words and believes in him, becomes reconnected to the source of all life, God the Father, and is no longer subject the judgment that will befall those who remain in Satan's jurisdiction. He has literally passed from a state of spiritual death to a state of spiritual life. He has been resurrected.
Resurrection is not the recomposition of the physical body, but is the spiritual and internal (aka not visible to the physical eye) transition from being under Satan's dominion and control to being under God's domain and jurisdiction. It is not an external change, but an internal one.
Jesus himself was perfectly in union with the Father, and yet, externally he looked just like any other man to everyone around him.
Based on the biblical standard of life and death, we can understand that when Christ returns, "the dead who rise in Christ" refers to those who will receive Christ when he returns and are resurrected into the realm of unity with God.
Resurrection before and after the Return of Christ
Before the return of Christ, our resurrection is necessarily limited, because our bodies remain in the realm of death. We do not escape sin completely. But when Christ returns, the people who are alive physically at that time (and all generations thereafter) will have their flesh also restored to God's sovereignty. Thus, following the Return of Christ, complete and perfect resurrection will be possible.
(Note: Although we receive salvation through faith in Jesus, aka our spirits are restored to God's sovereignty, our flesh remains under Satan's jurisdiction. For example, see Romans 7:24, in which Paul laments: O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? This is why the Second Coming is necessary: the restore the physical world, and our physical bodies, to God's sovereignty, so that the Kingdom of God is BOTH in Heaven AND on Earth.)
First off, we are spared from the wrath to come.
Before any of it, we will be gathered together with him.
The word "rapture" may not be in the Bible, but "translated" is in Hebrews 11:5. The Greek word (metatithemi) means, according to the Complete Word Study Bible, change of place or condition. To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport. This is an explanation of Enoch's experience in Genesis 5:24. According to Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated because he had obtained the testimony that he pleased God. Similarly, verse 6 says that we must believe that God rewards those who diligently seek Him. This definitely indicates that Enoch's "translation" which is a synonym for rapture, was a reward, not an entitlement, simply because he believed that "God is." I do not believe that every believer is entitled to be raptured, but is for those who have obtained the testimony that they are pleasing to God. "Therefore also we are determined, whether at home or abroad, to gain the honor of being well pleasing to Him." IICorinthians 5:9
Eschatology in 3 general points:
But... HOW will he return?
Is scripture purely literal, or symbolic? or mixed?
For example, "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" Luke 12:49.
Jesus is clearly talking about fire as a metaphor for spiritual awakening and/or truth.
Extra points for finding the one example in scripture of when someone "came back". It's there if you can find it.
Acts1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Mixed. Many writes over many years employed many forms of literary devices. Context is king.
From various angles a general case could be made that Samuel, Jonah, Lazarus, Jesus, and a few children all "came back" depending on what you mean. Edit to add that Paul also had an Anon friend he might boast about...
Mankind tends to make much of ourselves and our comforts especially in the seemingly more prosperous times and developed places. Sufferings are experiences designed to understand wholeness in Christ. Wanting to escape pain is natural. Knowing the Savior through the pain is supernatural. Experiencing the wholeness of "rejoicing in sufferings" is glorious.
Thanks for the reply.
If you look closely at the scripture you quoted, it's actually deceptively complex. On face value, it seems to say one thing, but on another, it says something completely different.
Consider: the Angel is asking the men "Why are you standing here looking into heaven?"
The question implies that looking up into heaven is an unreasonable action.
"Why are you standing here looking into heaven (as if you expect Jesus to return this way)?"
The issue is that the word heaven is used in multiple ways in scripture.
There is the literal 'heaven', meaning the sky, the upper atmosphere, including the stratosphere, etc., or even outer space, where the stars exist.
There is also the metaphorical use of 'heaven', meaning the spiritual realm where God's presence dwells, signifying an elevated spiritual dimension.
Confusion over which is which is the cause of much theological confusion. This is understandable if you consider that people in Jesus day really had no scientific understanding of the former, and also limited grasp of the latter. (to a great extent, our scientific grasp of the nature of the spiritual realms etc, is just as limited as their scientific grasp of the nature of the material realms.)
"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven." I guess there are some who think that God literally lives in the sky, but by far the more coherent idea is that Heaven here refers to the elevates spiritual realm where God dwells, and Earth refers to the material realm, aka the Physical universe.
Just as a human being has a mind (internal quality, invisible, subjective) and a body (external form, visible, objective), likewise the universe is comprised of the spiritual world (internal, invisible, subjective) and the physical world (external, visible, objective).
"This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
We know through scripture that Jesus was perfected through his life and his sufferings. He was born pure, but not perfect, in the sense that perfect means fully and completely mature. (We can, however, say that Jesus was born perfect In the sense that a seed is perfect, i.e. without blemish, even if it is not fully developed and mature).
From this perspective, Jesus "going into heaven" was a process that happened over the course of his natural life, as he matured into perfect union with the Father. Is the Angel saying: "why are you looking up to the sky? Jesus will return in the way that he grew into oneness with the Father, through a natural life in his flesh in the material realm." Otherwise, it's hard to logically explain why the angel questions their standing their gawking into the sky.
OK. None of those is what I mean. I mean, "coming back" in the sense that someone lived on Earth, then died, then was prophesied to return at some future date, and then did. Aka a second coming.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ribera
Does this sound like Christ's 2nd Advent?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Meeting in the air is clearly different from The Lord Jesus Christ standing on Mount Zion.
The SOLE PURPOSE of the tribulation is to restore the nation of Israel. You can read any Old Testament prophecy for details.
The SOLE PURPOSE of the age of Grace is God's will to create the body of Christ, a people with the mind of Christ and the glorified body of Christ who serve God as Kings and Priests. They abode in the New Jerusalem where there is no sun because God is the light. Where there is no temple because God is the Temple.
The restored nation of Israel is the kingdom of Heaven, a physical kingdom on Earth, with a physical temple, where physical sacrifices take place and the people eat from a physical tree of life to stay alive. Ezekiel 40-48 tells quite clearly of THEIR future. The body of Christ MINISTERS to these people. They are caught up into Heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins and return with Christ at the 2nd Advent, His angels.
Tribulation doctrine is a faith and works based salvation. The church age is faith alone. Your CHOICE on whether you wish to attend the tribulations or not. Believe that the blood atonement of Christ paid for your sins and there is NOTHING you can do to save yourself, you will be spared the tribulation. Why would believers need to be ruled with a rod of iron? It's too simple to understand, I guess.
This is rome's new tact. All of the reformation saints believed in a pre tribulation doctrine and they all believed that the pope was an antiChrist, Luther, Wycliff, Tyndale, all of them. rome is trying to muddy the waters, lying like their father.
Well done.
We could go on and on scripture after scripture. My favorite on is “those who are alive and remain will be caught up at the last Trump after the sun and moon are darkened. Well how does this happen if we are all gone already? C.I. Scofeild and John Darby were heretics!