Something important I think the board needs to hear to help keep this war in perspective:
T total depravity: we are inherently sinful
U unconditional atonement: we need to pay nothing for forgiveness (indeed we cannot)
L limited atonement: not all are saved
I irresistible grace: once called, your eyes will be open, you won’t be able to shut them anymore
P perseverance of the saints: we will face difficulties in this world, since our enemies consist of our own selves, other sinners and the devil himself.
I say this because fixing our government (even permanently) does not solve the God sized hole in our hearts, and there’s no good within ourselves apart from God. This is important to remember as we continue the battle, to know none of us earned salvation or righteousness so we ought to show grace for those not yet awake.
And that, my friends, is true strength.
I agree, the problem we are facing is spiritual in nature and not materialistic. You can create any kind of control system to manage our government, but if we do not understand and follow God's laws we will always end up in the same place - on our way to the Satan's prison.
There are multiple reasons why Q said this is Biblical, and I am now starting to believe that the most important way is because this time around, with the Great Awakening, we will actually end up feeling God directly, each and everyone of us that was saved, and that is how we will truly free ourselves.
This is precisely why Christianity never worked in most of Asia. The concept of inherent sin and default evil is not easy to translate or explain. Truth be told, I am not on board. I realize original sin has been a debate forever but the deeper in Q and the further on my Christian walk I am, the more that I feel original sin is a cabal lie.
Then there is the L. This is where Calvinists and Jehovah's witnesses get their concepts of the elect, and that concept has created more atheist than just about anything in theology. I acknowledge that unensouled people exist and there is an outright difference between higher and lower domain humans..
BUT, I do believe salvation is a potential for every soul just like awakening and not being 4-6% is also a possibility for anyone who choose to cross the wall of fire and bear the burden of truth.
I am not trying to be combative but I am sure of one thing, when the awakening comes Christians will have to face the idea so many of the tenets of Christianity they use in the practicing of the "religion" itself are ancient lies, and that modern clergy leaders and government itself have used these lies to manipulate them and society at large.
One person below has it right, a certain set of theology only leads to nihilism, and nihilism is the #1 tool of the cabal
If you believe the Bible, there are a number of passages on “the names in the book of life” or how “God predestined those he chooses to save” and a number of other VERY obvious cues of “elect” people. The OT shows this as a whole, where God had a chosen nation, with a few outsiders grafted in, provided they were fully enveloped in levitical laws. That is a foreshadowing of people into heaven. God pulls in His chosen people, no longer a race, but those who love him and worship him through Jesus his son, our savior (without him, we would have no “legal” access to God).
I know you mean well, but TULIP isn't going to help in this situation.
Each person has a choice to make. Worship Christ, or worship the evil one. Each person is created in the image of God, so there is hope they can choose correctly, but they must come to know the fullness of Truth, which can only be found in the Orthodox Christian church.
TULIP leads to nihilism, which is ultimately following the path of evil. I will not deny that there are well meaning people who profess Christ, and may ultimately come to know Christ through the Church.
My prayer is that as many as possible will come to know Christ through His Church.
In the end, even if they kill us, they won't disconnect us from Christ and His love.
What is you foundation for truth?
If you believe the Bible and hold to faith in God as he has expressed himself through that word, then TULIP is essential. It’s not a new idea (meaning post Bible times), but a summary. God commands that his people meet together, sing songs, pray, and worship him. To build each other up, and to know His Word so that we may answer those who ask.
TULIP uses biblical texts that are ideas littered throughout the Bible, not one off obscure commands for a specific time. To say TULIP is evil undercuts the whole idea of TULIP. Which is that God is good, we are evil. We need to be made good, so we need to try (out of thanksgiving to God for His grace) to do good. It should make us the most joyful, loving, and forgiving people in human history when we truly understand it.
To partially understand it / wrongfully (in a selfish manner), we pervert it. Perverting an ideology then calling it evil is intellectually dishonest.
No theology has it right 100%, because the wisdom of God is far above the wisdom of man. This leads to humility. I think God has cast in some ways a very wide net of salvation, in that you must believe in Jesus, accept his death on the cross for a complete atonement of our sins, and seek thereafter to live a godly and holy life. Not perfectly, but with conviction and heartfelt sincerity to follow him.
If you are interested:
Orthodoxy 101 (Finding The Church Jesus built):
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbDsxw-e0m3mIkapUEZ_-5BEOr19F4t73
It's more about your heart being changed than head-knowledge. Even the demons know Christ is King. They confess Jesus and fear him. Don't take solice in your Systematic theology. Seek the Truth. Look for the Church Jesus built.
Both head and heart knowledge are required, if you love God, you ought to desire to know him through the normal means (the Bible and experience as a secondary). If God converts your heart and you never attend a Bible study, who am I to say you won’t be saved, the thief on the cross is a perfect example against that idea actually (may be one of the most interesting stories of salvation apart from the wonder of salvation even being possible). But consider the parable of the seeds, if you ride up quickly with no roots, a storm may take you away. We must be well grounded in the truth. I do agree that it is easy to only focus on one or the other.
The highlight in green is 100% spot on.
Jeremiah 17:9 New King James Version 9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Sin destroys every good intention & invention.
Jesus died for all
All who choose to take up their cross are saved. All who sacrifice themselves and trade their earthly physical desires for Christ Jesus will be given life. Free will places the responsibility on us. God does not send anyone to hell. They send themselves by choosing themselves and the world over Him. Jesus is the only way. He just happens to know who will choose what since He is the creator of time and sees all instead of being trapped inside its construct. So while Jesus died for all, not all are saved.
“Pick up your cross” “Sacrifice yourself” …this just sounds like works based theology to me. Is Jesus blood insufficient?
Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” There is no need to continue to crucify yourself, as you’re crucified with Christ.
Jesus’s blood is wholly sufficient. He paid all debts. Pick up your cross refers to choosing the death of yourself and instead following Christ Jesus for He is the way, the truth, and the life. No works in that. It’s a decision that encompasses how you will make all your subsequent decisions. Are you choosing what your sinful self wants or are you choosing what the Holy Spirit wants? The Spirit is what leads us to and keeps us obedient in Christ. It is not our doing, or our works but the the Spirit’s work. It is Christ in us that does the work. My physical body and mind want to entertain and do all manner of sinful acts. It is inherently sinful and cannot be trusted. So I choose Christ. His ways are above my ways.
To answer this, you can see my other comments in this thread. But there’s responsibility from man alone for man’s sin. God effectually calls people to himself. It’s not to say you don’t have to choose or it’s on you to choose. It’s more like this, God opens your eyes in such a way, that the only reasonable choice is belief in him. The effectual call is the removing of the scales from your eyes. This is why people who generally most vehemently oppose biblical beliefs don’t read the Bible, won’t hear out your arguments, and don’t care.
This is a position that many get wrapped around the wheel needlessly.
Define for all. Available to all? Are all forgiven? Are there any destined for hell besides demons and the devil? The Bible supports one of two theories in my opinion:
Salvation is available to every person but not given to every person (regardless of “sinfulness”)
Every sin is forgiven (to ward of God’s impending wrath immediately) but not everyone is given Jesus’s acts of obedience.
In case there was any confusion about what all means; 1 Timothy 4:10 would seem to clear it up “10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” Savior of all men includes both believers and unbelievers. I don’t see how limited atonement is supported in the Bible.
“Specially of those that believe”
I means, it’s right there that should cause you doubt and questions as to what you are saying. Romans 8, Ephesians 1 have this pesky word called “predestination” in which God has destined before it happens, that some will be saved and some will not. Romans 2 speaks heavily on God’s judgement against sinful men. In fact, the Bible has so many references to not all men being saved, starting as far back as Genesis 6, I could make a nearly infinite case. What’s more, Jesus speaks more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. To deny hell and deny God’s holy attribute of Justice is heresy, not the belief in it (called TULIP)
I provided a clear example of “all” meaning more than just believers, but you want to redefine “all” to mean something less than all to fit your theology. That’s fine, but you’re denying the clear language here.
I’m not denying hell; man’s doctrine of hell isn’t what the Bible teaches.
Do you believe God desires that none perish (2 Peter 3:9)? If yes, why can’t God accomplish this goal?
Hell is the absence of God. That is the biggest defining feature of it.
You didn’t provide a clear explanation as it had a qualifier that lent itself to more than one explanation. Understanding the Bible requires that we look at the whole of the scriptures with an understanding of context as well. Jesus clearly said that the path to heaven is narrow and difficult, whereas the path to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is wide and open. Meaning that most people will go to hell and less will go to heaven.
Matthew 7:13-14
[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke 13:24
[24] “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matthew 19:24-26
[24] Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” [25] When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” [26] But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Matthew 24:9-14
[9] “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. [10] And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. [11] And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. [12] And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. [13] But the one who endures to the end will be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Acts 2:21
[21] And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 9:27-29
[27] And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, [28] for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” [29] And as Isaiah predicted,
If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.
So I could go on. But I think this is MORE than enough evidence to show that heaven is not for all mankind, but hell is sadly for most people. We should then be more motivated to preach the gospel to unbelievers knowing what their end is.
“Hell is the absence of God.”
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb
God is “All in all”; there is no absence of God anywhere. How can you even preach the gospel to people if you don’t believe Jesus actually atoned for them? Do you add a maybe Jesus died for you, but maybe not?
Sheol is not hell. Because Samuel a prophet of God is in Sheol when Saul calls him forth from the dead. So not misinterpreting the Bible is key. Sheol is the place of the dead. After death and prior to Jesus’ second coming.
We don’t know for whom Jesus Christ died for, I have no assurance that you are saved, but I also don’t know you’re condemned. I’m left with preaching and teaching in hopes that you are saved. Each person knows their own heart though. So this has to do with people cannot read minds, whereas God can. I’m not constrained in presenting the gospel to only those I deem to be saved. The gospel is for anyone and should be freely offered to all. To withhold the gospel is to violate it. You then teach them to trust that Jesus died for them, you wouldn’t teach them insecurity in hopes that they learn security, but you teach them security in God in hopes that they hold fast to it. You equip them with knowledge and faith, not one or the other.
Now I may have taken the same liberty I argued against earlier but I’m not too big to admit when I’m wrong. As iron sharpens iron…
Ephesians 2:12
[12] remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
This may appear at the forefront to be saying God is not present in hell, but appears to be saying more along the lines of saying that there’s no common grace of God to those in hell. So on earth, the feeble lives we live are far more blessed than we deserve because of God’s common grace (it rains on both the righteous and the unrighteous). Whereas those in heaven enjoy not only common grace, but what I would call specific grace, as God specifically had called them out of darkness and into his marvelous light.
Edit: I don’t mean that first paragraph as an attack, I hope you don’t take it that way. It’s very easy to misquote or mistake the meaning of scriptures and when we are wrong we admit it and ask God for forgiveness. I’m not saying you are of the ones who change the scriptures spoken of in Revelations by any means. I’m 100% sure I know not all of the truths of the Bible and there are places I could be corrected. And you sir found one of them, thank you for that.
U= Unconditional Election Romans 8:29-30
"29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Amen. 5 pointer sister here, thank you brother!
Easier just to say this.
"Confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation and with the heart believing unto righteousness" romans 10: 9 and 10.
No sense in beating around the bush.
I agree. I also believe the theology of TULIP because it helps to ease the explanation of the “how” it works out. Blessed are those who have believed and not seen.
I consider myself to be a 6-pointer.
I fully agree with TULIP.
Tulip is laser focused on what God has done and will do.
However, there is another side to the story and it is well supported in Scripture.
Here's just two: Jesus said, "unless YOU repent, you will likewise perish." Paul wrote, "therefore knowing the fear of the LORD, we persuade men."
God's Word presents two pictures to us, from two different perspectives. From my perspective, there was a day when I made a cognitive decision to surrender my life and my will to Jesus Christ. From God's perspective, He made that decision first on my behalf: "He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world to be Holy and blameless in His sight."
Therefore, TULIP only tells one side of the story: God's side. But we must account for that other side: Man's side.
Which is it? Yes. It's both. But that doesn't make sense. Exactly!
Tulip strips us of any right to take pride, or to boast in our salvation. Yet if we reject Christ, the responsibility for our rebellion falls squarely on us.
We must accept both sides, even though in our minds they do not reconcile. Both are clearly taught in the Bible. We fill in that gap with faith, knowing that the Creator of the Universe will always do what's right. His ways, are not our ways. And His thoughts are far above our thoughts.
So we can bring the Gospel to people and call them to repent as if their salvation depends upon us. But if they reject Christ, we can fall on God's sovereignty in election because their salvation is also dependent upon His choice.
Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. Who has known the mind of the LORD, or who has been His counselor? Who has ever given to God that He should repay him? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen!
I completely agree. TULIP is meant to drive against catholic theology of man based salvation with an assist from Jesus. This absolutely does not absolve us of responsibility. 👍
No true Catholic believe’s in man based salvation. We are saved by grace through faith—as a Catholic convert, this is squarely what the Church teaches. The Catholic view, however, is that our actions demonstrate our faith. I can’t run around killing people, but saying I have faith (better translated from Greek as trust). I have to live my life following Jesus and God’s laws.
Jesus did the saving, I have to accept this by living my life accordingly, otherwise I have the risk of losing Jesus’s saving grace. I do NOT save myself.
Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.
Here’s the problem with Catholicism, and what makes it hard. The hard part is that 99% of Catholicism is fine, very little issues. The problem I have is the 1% problem is a snow ball effect into an avalanche. There are things that the pope can say (I know not everything, but particular times in history) that can be counted to be worthy of the same honor as God’s word (the Jews to the same with the Talmud).
“Praying to the Saints” meaning asking a saint to pray for you, like you would ask a friend to pray for you is also wrong. The Bible isn’t unclear on this.
3 examples:
Saul, a necromancer, and Samuel (post death). Saul calls up Samuel’s spirit to ask him to ask God for wisdom in an upcoming battle, Samuel instead punishes him for the use of the necromancer and tells him why God won’t speak to him through the prophets.
The story of Lazarus where the one who wronged him wanted to save himself, was denied, said at least let me tell my family, and it is said, if they will not believe the prophets, will they believe you?
Isaiah 8:19
[19] And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
If you can lose salvation based on your behavior, then it’s based on your works. I don’t see how this idea is compatible with grace.
So if I violate the Ten Commandments, I’m still saved? My actions don’t matter? I don’t have to choose salvation (and by extension live according to Christ’s example)?
Daily you violate the Ten Commandments, as do I. Read the interpretation Jesus gives on them, pretty insane to follow them. as I wrote elsewhere, God removes the scales from our eyes and we have no good choice but to follow him. This is what people call effectual calling.
Christ isn’t an example; he’s a savior. If you could follow his example, then his death wasn’t necessary.
Grace is a gift freely given. I can still say “no thanks” to the gift.
if your eyes are truly opened, you would never deny it, knowing what the opposite will give you.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/depravity-yes-total-depravity-no-way
Man is sinful beyond self-salvation. The idea of total depravity can actually be pretty easily seen in the Bible. See here how God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, maybe the idea of the how is not explained, but the why is. So the how shows us that God didn’t make Pharaoh evil, he was already evil, but God had removed his restraining hand from pharaoh’s heart that allowed him to become much more evil very quickly, why? Because man (apart from God) is (louder for the people in the back!) totally depraved.
Romans 9:15-23
*[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—*
More examples would be when the Bible says, he gave them over to the desires of the flesh.
If I’m wrong, then you by default say that God made these people sin, but the Bible says and God says that God cannot make you sin, he only puts you through tests with a way to escape.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2011/11/st-francis-de-sales-argument-against-total-depravity-and-for-the-indefectibility-of-the-church-psalms-2.html
Here is another one. You are skilled and well trained. I am not. I will let the great St Francis de Sales refute the calvinist position. You'll find within a link to the whole text of the "Catholic Controversy" if there is interest.
I don’t see how affirming the TULIP view or its opposite has any impact on living the Christian life. We are to walk with God, evangelize, disciple, and fulfill our calling.
Maybe someone can enlighten me why being a five point Calvinist (or not) changes what I’m going to do today.
It's a matter of who get's the Glory. God gets all the glory, because He did it all. TULIP strips man of all his pride, which is one reason why so many people hate it.
Yet, as I said earlier, there is the element of man's responsibility that is also taught in Scripture. We are commanded to "work out" our salvation. To be do-ers of the Word and not hearers only. God does the saving, we do the obeying.
A full grasp on TULIP should fill your heart with gratitude toward God for choosing you.
I think the difference it makes in your day to day life is big. When properly understood, you should have deep peace that isn’t shaken by current events/ disasters, you will find it easier to forgive those who have wronged you. You will be more rooted in your faith, not finding that every headline reading “We have proven the Bible isn’t true is…” which never seem to add up to anything, but people get worried or spun up. God cannot be canceled like the left is so found of doing. So it is mainly a change of perspective, which can do many people much good.
I love a good theology discussion, so allow me to begin by saying that I love you as a sibling in Christ, OP. Thank you for sharing your faith boldly and being willing to engage with others about our Jesus.
As I understand it, in TULIP, the L for limited atonement doesn't just mean not all are saved; it means Jesus only died for the sins of the elect.
Many verses from scripture counter this doctrine of limited atonement, including 1 John 2:2, which says "He is the propitiation for our sins, not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Jesus's own words in John 3:16 are "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosover believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (both verses ESV).
What does the Calvinist say of these verses? And what verses are cited as supportive of limited atonement? I humbly ask these questions as one who is not a Calvinist but who is seeking to understand the doctrine.
So there’s a 2 answers (that I know of) to that question, without knowing God’s thoughts, I can’t guarantee an answer (not to say these are 💯 correct, just the most feasible answer I know of):
Christ’s death is for all the world, meaning no nation is exempt from salvation (no longer tied to only the Israel)
All sins of all mankind are forgiven, which voids God’s immediate anger from eviscerating them here and now, but Christ only gives his perfect following of the law to those he has chosen. This is because not only is sinlessness required, but also active obedience. The Ten Commandments are not just negative commands, but there are positive commands required of you, see Jesus’ own explanation of a few of the Ten Commandments.
There are many places in the Bible when it speaks of those NOT saved, those not taken up to “Abraham’s bosom” meaning salvation is limited. Look up also “the book of life” throughout the Bible as well.
Much brotherly love to all fellow Christians and even non-Christians, I know not each person’s end.
Orthodox response to all points of Calvanism by Met. Jonah:
Part 10 The Historical Development of Western Theology, Augustine, and John Calvin: https://youtu.be/cy8qH_XUI8o
Part 11 Calvinism, Culture, and Orthodoxy: https://youtu.be/8tlg5H2Lz18
Calvinism is heresy.
No, and having no argument isn’t worthy of this board. I have taken great pains to answer each and any question or to refute comments such as this, but this? This is laziness belief.
So far I have been able to forgive everyone but the people who gave the death jabs, they did it knowingly. If you can help me out with that one I would be greatly appreciative.
Yes, so imagine someone was exactly opposite of you, constantly slapping you in the face by their lifestyle choices and remarks. This goes on for decades, you would be pissed and hate them likely. You’d find a way to get away and denounce their personhood at least in your heart of hearts.
We are the same to God. He made us in his own image, yet daily we violate his precepts, we dishonor him, and we don’t even acknowledge our wrongdoing. This rightfully should incur God’s wrath. He instead gave his son for our salvation, and commands us to forgive much, for we have been forgiven much.
Imagine looking to a high mountain or into a deep valley, thinking of the heights as morality. People who have lived an honorable life up high and those degenerate people at the bottom. God views us from the distance of the sun, none of us obtain that level of righteousness, we all fall short, so if God can save a righteous man, then saving the sinner at the bottom is no more difficult for him. It’s not much further than the distance he already traveled. So therefore, go and do likewise.
That being said, God forgives sins, but does not promote them, he calls us to a new way of life, we ought to do that when we forgive others, we’re not commanded to be door mats.
Earthly justice needs to be done for those deeds. Genesis 3 demands accountability. But remember Genesis 1, we are also created in God’s image. That doesn’t neglect violating the law. Hence the need for justice.