The main reason US citizens don't take many of these jobs is the industry has gotten away with paying low wages. Thus US Citizens refused them. I assume with the right pay all jobs by the migrants can and will be filled. It may raise the cost of their products but it is best for all of America in the end.
In addition, the illegals themselves push Americans out. They want those jobs for themselves. They gang up on Americans making it miserable for them on the job. I have personally seen it and experienced it. You can't just fight one bean, you end up fighting the whole burrito.
Agree, and how many small business owners are pushed out and that even includes the young almost adults who want and need to earn money. + all the inner city blacks who need to get their asses to work and get off tax payers backs.
Exactly. Some businesses push others out because they hire cheaper labor that allows them to be more competitive - a page out of the Chinese business book. I am tired of hearing them whine about Americans not wanting to do some of those jobs. Balderdash! They would do those jobs if they were paid above slave labor wages and were not pushed out by the illegals. I think that is a big reason why a lot of our young people are useless and have never developed good work ethics. They just can't get those jobs. Another thing is the language barrier. A lot of jobs in the service sector prefer bilingual. That is unfair. I have been passed over for positions in health care because of not speaking Spanish. They have been taking over for years.
You are correct. I was expressing the same thought process in another post. I know this from experience as a current small business owner. I CANNOT compete with Juan and Pablo's prices, even if I wanted to because I don't have all of the built-in additions (government subsidies). There's simply no way for them to make any money if they were trying to run a legitimate business with their current prices.
Plus his wife and kids get free food, housing, health care schooling, etc. so that 8.00 an hour gets subsidized with tax dollars.
I did an immigrants ( legal, this one but applies to illegals as well.) taxes once. He made more than I did when you add in all the Bennie’s. Plus he “got back” 5k for earned income credit even though he had not payed in but a few hundred dollars in income tax.
So your 2 dollar vegetables already cost 20 dollars when you add in the tax subsidies you are paying for.
Any increased product cost could be more than offset by DOGE savings. Imagine having a minimum wage job if you weren't being taxed to death at every turn.
It should be this way for every citizen, our government can not stand us and will make life, for all citizens, very difficult. No taxes on citizens!
A dream, but it might come to fruition, never say never.
Yes, and there are a number of factors at play. Illegal immigration depresses the wages for American workers. For Americans, they keep the welfare payments just high enough for it not to be worthwhile to work these jobs. At the same time, the government is tasked with picking up the slack by providing healthcare, education, EBT and a host of other benefits to the illegals plus the Americans not working. These factors combine to ensure that illegals replace Americans and that American taxpayers pay for every step of it.
I drove by a vineyard today and saw a half dozen migrants tying vines. While I would agree they aren't as high priority to deport as ones that don't work and live on welfare funded by our taxes. The sooner they are gone the better imo
Even if they are working, chances are they are also collecting benefits at the same time. They use several different names. I witnessed that personally.
The wives have different last names and we’ve all seen them using their food stamp cards, loading them up with groceries we could never afford to buy and then getting into their Escalade. We are tired of it for sure!
I worked in medicine for years and saw that almost every day. They are completely gaming the system. Also, I don't completely blame them. They have been allowed to do it and they have even been encouraged. Many people were making money on the grift except honest hard working Americans.
I am all about profits however when companies refuse to hire because they have become addicted to higher profits that are only possible with a subsidized workforce THAT isn’t free market. If they can’t run the profit margin they want without taxpayers footing the bill that seems to be to be rebranded socialism. Pay CEOs less spend less on expansion but don’t cry when you don’t do those things pass it to the consumer then lose business. Walmart I am looking at you. This correction is gonna suck especially for people like me who have been hit hard the last few years but the alternative is much much worse
Listen, it's not like its impossible, but it's also not easy, nor is it is feasible in a short period of time. The truth of the matter is this. We probably COULD get rid of them all at once without much effect. The problem is that, that solution would require producers and corporations to absorb the extra cost for hiring Americans. Which we all know they'd never do because none of them can see off the tip of their nose. So it would almost certainly lead to hyperinflation in grocery stores. If you do it slower and over a longer period of time, then it won't be as bad, nor would it inflate as much. Especially since we're finally entering the age of full agriculture and hospitality automation. What used to take dozens of people, now can be done by 1-3 people overseeing a bunch of robots and physically correcting problems when they arise.
This is a problem that will die off on its own soon enough without forcing it to happen via deportation. So logically it makes more sense to focus on violent illegals (rapists, drug dealers, traffickers, child molesters, etc.) than to go after farm hands and room service maids.
Notice that construction companies weren't included, wanna know WHY? Because they aren't in the process of being replaced because you can't really replace them. Hence they'll have to be deported either way, and their jobs will go to Americans. Sure prices will go up short term, but in the long term they'll level off and possibly even drop post cabal.
It's all about the big picture and focusing on where ICE would be most effective at achieving our goals. If I had to pick between 10 child molesters or a hundred bean pickers, the bean pickers get a temporary pass.
I understand your thinking, but, look: We suffer hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions that affect entire regions. And we don't worry about the prices of anything. They go up or down as they will, and we just absorb the bump. It all settles out. Are you trying to tell me that removal of illegal workers is going to cripple the economy? More than massive natural disasters, which we recover from quite rapidly? Sorry, I'm not close to being a believer on that one.
Then obviously you don't understand basic economics. It's a combination of higher wages (which we could easily absorb) and market shock. If you just took EVERY illegal farm worker out of the country at once (or over a short period of time), there literally wouldn't be enough time in a lot of cases to harvest the crops. Farmers would have to fight for every single remaining farm hand and obviously some are gonna get stiffed badly, thus not be able to harvest, and therefor not only are they up the creek financially, but that's less food physically in the supply chain. This induces the law of scarcity, which means that overnight, you see $100 loaves of bread and other ridiculous crap like that.
What you're describing is like temporary blips that disrupt supply chains. If no one can harvest anything in any reasonable amount, it's not a disruption, its a breakdown of the entire chain which leads to hyperinflation overnight.
It's not the type of thing that would cripple the entire economy, its the type of thing that would cripple food prices specifically. And when food is too expensive, everything else breaks down.
But like I said, this is all a short term problem at this point, whether everyone wants to admit it or not. Farm full automation is likely going to be the norm within the decade, so these seasonal workers don't have many years left. Hence why it makes more sense to focus on child molesters, drug lords, etc.
Interesting argument. If something magical occurred and it happened all at once, there would be problems. So what? Nothing magical is going to occur anyway, so the premise of the argument is void. And we have natural disasters that we overcome without much comment, which was my original point. Somebody else on the page posted a news item where the place that had many illegals taken away had a personnel office full of people filling out job applications. You may be imagining a problem that won't exist.
You overrate automation. Lots of farming is accomplished through mechanization and there is a profession of farm mechanic to keep the harvesting machinery in operation. Adding automation on top of that just increases the complexity of the maintenance problem. Easier to hire people with brains who can drive a machine from road to field and back without slipping into the ditch. (A real problem. I worked three summers driving haulage truck from pea fields to the canning plant. Harrowers, viners, big trucks, and you had to be careful.)
I'm just going to stop arguing since you've obviously made up your mind on what's what and no amount of logic or facts will change it.
But you're just so wrong on everything at this point. The article you're talking about was a food processing plant, not a farm. Two separate things and food processing is much easier to replace illegals in than actual farms.
Second of all, I don't overrate automation. The overwhelming majority of farms are automated at this point. Any large farm has a single driver that controls entire fleets of machinery from the "lead machine" which drive themselves in patterns set by the lead machine. Likewise even that is being phased out to the point that some farms don't even have drivers and instead use what amounts to converted "tractor drones" that all drive themselves while a single person oversees it from an office on the farm. The only areas of plant agriculture (because livestock is an entirely separate conversation) that aren't fully automated or near fully automated on any decent sized farm at this point are tree fruit and specific berries that can bruise easily and need to be handled delicately.
And even that is currently being automated increasingly as technology advances and prices come down for the tech. This isn't some weird "AI runs everything for the humans" fantasy. This is just like every other industry that's been automated. You're going from dozens of employees, to 3 or 4 good well trained and well paid employees that oversee a fleet of automated machines to make sure they correct any machine errors and oversee and conduct maintenance, repair, etc.
For all intents and purposes, it's not that different than how vehicle assembly lines were automated and went from 50 people assembling a car piece by piece, to 5 people overseeing the assembly arms and correcting mistakes/doing maintenance and repair.
Like I said, within the next decade, most farms with any kind of scale (basically everything but the small players with sub 100 acres) are going to be fully or near fully automated. If they don't then they won't be able to keep up with everyone else and they'll go bankrupt.
Food processing...farms. I don't see the problem, as my experience with both is that the food processing is inherently more technical than fieldwork. They used to make the same kind of argument for slavery in the south, but the data in the 1850 census showed that the cotton and tobacco farms in the non-slavery north were more economically productive. How would that be? Easy. The farms in the south had extremely low labor costs, and even though they made less money per ton, the profit margin for the owner was munificent.
I defer to your more up-to-date understanding of agricultural methods, but I don't understand how putting illegals in charge of such systems makes sense when they clearly would not have the training or certification. It seems to me that automated agriculture is even less sensitive to the impact of removing illegal labor.
The thing that always kills me is when the left says, they are working and paying taxes. Wrong, they claim a large number of dependents so no federal taxes are withheld. Seen the Wives borrow someone else's kids at the DSHS office to get more benefits. "Food stamps" Then there is WIC women and infant children program, and on and on it goes. $$$$$$
The main reason US citizens don't take many of these jobs is the industry has gotten away with paying low wages. Thus US Citizens refused them. I assume with the right pay all jobs by the migrants can and will be filled. It may raise the cost of their products but it is best for all of America in the end.
In addition, the illegals themselves push Americans out. They want those jobs for themselves. They gang up on Americans making it miserable for them on the job. I have personally seen it and experienced it. You can't just fight one bean, you end up fighting the whole burrito.
Agree, and how many small business owners are pushed out and that even includes the young almost adults who want and need to earn money. + all the inner city blacks who need to get their asses to work and get off tax payers backs.
Exactly. Some businesses push others out because they hire cheaper labor that allows them to be more competitive - a page out of the Chinese business book. I am tired of hearing them whine about Americans not wanting to do some of those jobs. Balderdash! They would do those jobs if they were paid above slave labor wages and were not pushed out by the illegals. I think that is a big reason why a lot of our young people are useless and have never developed good work ethics. They just can't get those jobs. Another thing is the language barrier. A lot of jobs in the service sector prefer bilingual. That is unfair. I have been passed over for positions in health care because of not speaking Spanish. They have been taking over for years.
You are correct. I was expressing the same thought process in another post. I know this from experience as a current small business owner. I CANNOT compete with Juan and Pablo's prices, even if I wanted to because I don't have all of the built-in additions (government subsidies). There's simply no way for them to make any money if they were trying to run a legitimate business with their current prices.
That’s half the problem. The other half is most consumers don’t care about shit except where to get the cheapest or best deal.
Plus his wife and kids get free food, housing, health care schooling, etc. so that 8.00 an hour gets subsidized with tax dollars.
I did an immigrants ( legal, this one but applies to illegals as well.) taxes once. He made more than I did when you add in all the Bennie’s. Plus he “got back” 5k for earned income credit even though he had not payed in but a few hundred dollars in income tax.
So your 2 dollar vegetables already cost 20 dollars when you add in the tax subsidies you are paying for.
One bean! Whole burrito! You got me on the floor laughing. It's a Taco Bell kinda moment.
Glad to be of assistance lightening your day fren. Cheers.
I nearly died.
You get a point for a great metaphor: "You can't just fight one bean; you end up fighting the whole burrito."
Any increased product cost could be more than offset by DOGE savings. Imagine having a minimum wage job if you weren't being taxed to death at every turn.
It should be this way for every citizen, our government can not stand us and will make life, for all citizens, very difficult. No taxes on citizens! A dream, but it might come to fruition, never say never.
Yes, and there are a number of factors at play. Illegal immigration depresses the wages for American workers. For Americans, they keep the welfare payments just high enough for it not to be worthwhile to work these jobs. At the same time, the government is tasked with picking up the slack by providing healthcare, education, EBT and a host of other benefits to the illegals plus the Americans not working. These factors combine to ensure that illegals replace Americans and that American taxpayers pay for every step of it.
Yep, no more illegals.
I drove by a vineyard today and saw a half dozen migrants tying vines. While I would agree they aren't as high priority to deport as ones that don't work and live on welfare funded by our taxes. The sooner they are gone the better imo
Even if they are working, chances are they are also collecting benefits at the same time. They use several different names. I witnessed that personally.
The wives have different last names and we’ve all seen them using their food stamp cards, loading them up with groceries we could never afford to buy and then getting into their Escalade. We are tired of it for sure!
I worked in medicine for years and saw that almost every day. They are completely gaming the system. Also, I don't completely blame them. They have been allowed to do it and they have even been encouraged. Many people were making money on the grift except honest hard working Americans.
Absolutely, hard working Americans have always qualified for absolutely NOTHING.
The wives may or may not take their husbands name, in addition to their regular two last names, they now have two more!
Yep, they ALL have double last names and they like to use only one for one scam and another one for another and both for something else.
I am all about profits however when companies refuse to hire because they have become addicted to higher profits that are only possible with a subsidized workforce THAT isn’t free market. If they can’t run the profit margin they want without taxpayers footing the bill that seems to be to be rebranded socialism. Pay CEOs less spend less on expansion but don’t cry when you don’t do those things pass it to the consumer then lose business. Walmart I am looking at you. This correction is gonna suck especially for people like me who have been hit hard the last few years but the alternative is much much worse
Listen, it's not like its impossible, but it's also not easy, nor is it is feasible in a short period of time. The truth of the matter is this. We probably COULD get rid of them all at once without much effect. The problem is that, that solution would require producers and corporations to absorb the extra cost for hiring Americans. Which we all know they'd never do because none of them can see off the tip of their nose. So it would almost certainly lead to hyperinflation in grocery stores. If you do it slower and over a longer period of time, then it won't be as bad, nor would it inflate as much. Especially since we're finally entering the age of full agriculture and hospitality automation. What used to take dozens of people, now can be done by 1-3 people overseeing a bunch of robots and physically correcting problems when they arise.
This is a problem that will die off on its own soon enough without forcing it to happen via deportation. So logically it makes more sense to focus on violent illegals (rapists, drug dealers, traffickers, child molesters, etc.) than to go after farm hands and room service maids.
Notice that construction companies weren't included, wanna know WHY? Because they aren't in the process of being replaced because you can't really replace them. Hence they'll have to be deported either way, and their jobs will go to Americans. Sure prices will go up short term, but in the long term they'll level off and possibly even drop post cabal.
It's all about the big picture and focusing on where ICE would be most effective at achieving our goals. If I had to pick between 10 child molesters or a hundred bean pickers, the bean pickers get a temporary pass.
I understand your thinking, but, look: We suffer hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions that affect entire regions. And we don't worry about the prices of anything. They go up or down as they will, and we just absorb the bump. It all settles out. Are you trying to tell me that removal of illegal workers is going to cripple the economy? More than massive natural disasters, which we recover from quite rapidly? Sorry, I'm not close to being a believer on that one.
Then obviously you don't understand basic economics. It's a combination of higher wages (which we could easily absorb) and market shock. If you just took EVERY illegal farm worker out of the country at once (or over a short period of time), there literally wouldn't be enough time in a lot of cases to harvest the crops. Farmers would have to fight for every single remaining farm hand and obviously some are gonna get stiffed badly, thus not be able to harvest, and therefor not only are they up the creek financially, but that's less food physically in the supply chain. This induces the law of scarcity, which means that overnight, you see $100 loaves of bread and other ridiculous crap like that.
What you're describing is like temporary blips that disrupt supply chains. If no one can harvest anything in any reasonable amount, it's not a disruption, its a breakdown of the entire chain which leads to hyperinflation overnight.
It's not the type of thing that would cripple the entire economy, its the type of thing that would cripple food prices specifically. And when food is too expensive, everything else breaks down.
But like I said, this is all a short term problem at this point, whether everyone wants to admit it or not. Farm full automation is likely going to be the norm within the decade, so these seasonal workers don't have many years left. Hence why it makes more sense to focus on child molesters, drug lords, etc.
Interesting argument. If something magical occurred and it happened all at once, there would be problems. So what? Nothing magical is going to occur anyway, so the premise of the argument is void. And we have natural disasters that we overcome without much comment, which was my original point. Somebody else on the page posted a news item where the place that had many illegals taken away had a personnel office full of people filling out job applications. You may be imagining a problem that won't exist.
You overrate automation. Lots of farming is accomplished through mechanization and there is a profession of farm mechanic to keep the harvesting machinery in operation. Adding automation on top of that just increases the complexity of the maintenance problem. Easier to hire people with brains who can drive a machine from road to field and back without slipping into the ditch. (A real problem. I worked three summers driving haulage truck from pea fields to the canning plant. Harrowers, viners, big trucks, and you had to be careful.)
I'm just going to stop arguing since you've obviously made up your mind on what's what and no amount of logic or facts will change it.
But you're just so wrong on everything at this point. The article you're talking about was a food processing plant, not a farm. Two separate things and food processing is much easier to replace illegals in than actual farms.
Second of all, I don't overrate automation. The overwhelming majority of farms are automated at this point. Any large farm has a single driver that controls entire fleets of machinery from the "lead machine" which drive themselves in patterns set by the lead machine. Likewise even that is being phased out to the point that some farms don't even have drivers and instead use what amounts to converted "tractor drones" that all drive themselves while a single person oversees it from an office on the farm. The only areas of plant agriculture (because livestock is an entirely separate conversation) that aren't fully automated or near fully automated on any decent sized farm at this point are tree fruit and specific berries that can bruise easily and need to be handled delicately.
And even that is currently being automated increasingly as technology advances and prices come down for the tech. This isn't some weird "AI runs everything for the humans" fantasy. This is just like every other industry that's been automated. You're going from dozens of employees, to 3 or 4 good well trained and well paid employees that oversee a fleet of automated machines to make sure they correct any machine errors and oversee and conduct maintenance, repair, etc.
For all intents and purposes, it's not that different than how vehicle assembly lines were automated and went from 50 people assembling a car piece by piece, to 5 people overseeing the assembly arms and correcting mistakes/doing maintenance and repair.
Like I said, within the next decade, most farms with any kind of scale (basically everything but the small players with sub 100 acres) are going to be fully or near fully automated. If they don't then they won't be able to keep up with everyone else and they'll go bankrupt.
Food processing...farms. I don't see the problem, as my experience with both is that the food processing is inherently more technical than fieldwork. They used to make the same kind of argument for slavery in the south, but the data in the 1850 census showed that the cotton and tobacco farms in the non-slavery north were more economically productive. How would that be? Easy. The farms in the south had extremely low labor costs, and even though they made less money per ton, the profit margin for the owner was munificent.
I defer to your more up-to-date understanding of agricultural methods, but I don't understand how putting illegals in charge of such systems makes sense when they clearly would not have the training or certification. It seems to me that automated agriculture is even less sensitive to the impact of removing illegal labor.
Pay the people a decent wage and the jobs will fill up.
The thing that always kills me is when the left says, they are working and paying taxes. Wrong, they claim a large number of dependents so no federal taxes are withheld. Seen the Wives borrow someone else's kids at the DSHS office to get more benefits. "Food stamps" Then there is WIC women and infant children program, and on and on it goes. $$$$$$