This is a "What If" scenario intended to generate discussion and alternative analysis.
First let's go through a few established known truths:
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The apostle John wrote Revelations while exiled on Patmos
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John was a beloved apostle and was an eyewitness to the teachings and miracles of Jesus
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John was a faithful apostle and reliable
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Revelations is particularly difficult to understand given the imagery and symbolism
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Revelations basic message is that GOD is in control and his Victory is assured. All who believe and trust in Jesus Christ will be saved
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Revelations closes human history in the same way Genesis opened it--- in Paradise
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Genesis describes the introduction of evil to humans, Revelations describes the annihilation of evil for forever
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We've been taught that Revelations describes the end of humanity
So what if Revelations is describing the end of the World as we know it... Not the end of Earth literally?
What if Revelations is a message to the cabal directly... telling them how their rule ends?
What if eradicating the luciferians is literally the eradication of evil forever?
What if when Q uses the word biblical -- it's a reference to the book of Revelations and the last epic battle between Good and evil?
What if the "panic" that Q describes is literally their hysteria and panic knowing that their world is coming to an end?
Call it intuition or a gut feeling.....but my entire life I've been taught that Revelations describes an end to humanity. One week ago it occurred to me that this could be just another misunderstood concept. When I dig in and apply the Q context to Revelations......it makes sense to me that we're witnessing it happen and it's not our destruction that John described. He described THEIR destruction.
Then again... I could be wrong.
It's not RevelationS plural, it's Revelation singular as it's all about The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Making this association of Q and Revelation is elevating Q too high and bringing the scale and scope of the Book of Revelation too low.
As far as interpreting Revelation, it's entirely full of Old Testament references and imagery. It's basically a test on how well you know the OT to interpret it, which is why I think it's to the remaining Jews. There are no references to the Church after Chapter 3, and the candlesticks referencing the Church are found in heaven before the judgment starts.
The Christians are raptured out before it starts, and the 7-year tribulation's purpose is to bring the Jews back to their God and to come to know who Jesus Christ really is. The whole world will go to war with Israel under the antichrist's banner and they'll be brought to a place where they beg Jesus to save them, finally uniting them with their Savior. Here's an interesting chart giving other explanations and comparisons: https://calvarychapelkaneohe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/PreTribulationRaptureProof.pdf
Converts to Christ are going to be beheaded during the tribulation, so we can choose to live for Him now, or die for Him later.
Revelation (thank you for correcting him about the S thing.) was about the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
If you were a Christian in that time you would have seen the city be surrounded by Roman armies that had to leave suddenly and you would have fled to the mountains as instructed in that writing before Rome came back a few days later and destroyed the city and killed everyone there.
When Jesus said "This generation shall not pass till all these things happen" before His execution, He meant it.
There is no rapture. That eschatology (study of end times) has been mainstream for less than 200 years old and was spread my the Scofield Reference Bible which was the first Bible to have notes and explanations in it.
Pre-millennial dispensationalism (rapture / tribulation doctrine) is a lie from the pit of hell and has cut the balls off the church. Satan has tricked churches into laying down, ruling over and waiting for rapture while almost celebrating things getting worse.
We should be fighting and building but who polishes brass on a ship when they think it's sinking?
The only ones that will be swept away are the wicked.... "just like in the days of Noah."
God wins. He says to Jesus "Sit at My right hand while I make all Your enemies Your footstool" more times in the Bible than any other verse.
Read you Bible without the traditions you've been told and taught. You NEVER would have come to the conclusions you currently are espousing on your own.
Some great sermons and explanations on the subject.
Preterism is false.
How odd that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (if it did indeed fulfill Revelation) that the Apostle John, only 20 to 25 years later, did not mention refer to it AT ALL in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
John, the beloved, the Apostle God chose to write the final book of God's Word, DIDN'T even mention it.
The Reformation brought about many blessed and wonderful conversions and changed the world, but how the Reformers came up with Preterism is beyond me. It's demonstrably false, just using the logic above.
Rapture of the church is false.
Was Noah and his family swept off the Earth? No. Only the wicked.
And God's word says it will be the same way in the end.
God wins.
Post-millennialism not Preterism dude.
Enoch was raptured before the flood, symbolizing the Church. Noah represents Israel, going through the flood, but being preserved while the others who were left behind died from God's judgment.
I couldn't disagree more.
The ark represented salvation and the only door to the ark represented Jesus Christ. The flood was the judgment and the sweeping away of all that had it reached salvation through Christ alone.
Just like the wheat and the chaff.... When God's fiery judgment comes the wheat goes through it but is unharmed.
God wins.
The Protestants founded this nation held to my position, not yours. You're 200-year-old interpretation of eschatology is a tradition that you're raising above the word of God. I believe Jesus had something to say about that.
What are those churches doing or not doing in your opinion?
Churches and Christians should be about their business of The Great Commission of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations. Is it that those churches aren’t preaching the gospel, or is it something else?
You guys are such fun! Choose the comments below that apply to you:
Revelation is multilevel and all interpretative structures have some merit but you must be able to interact with the merits of others than your own.
Preterism is somewhat valid, but you must understand what happens after that (Elijah came and is coming).
Pretribulation is somewhat valid, but you must understand what happens after that (wrath). (I teach classical posttribulation premillennialism.)
Teotwawki is somewhat valid, but you must understand what happens after that (new earth).
Postmillennialism is somewhat valid, but you must understand what happens before that (suffering, loss).
Soul-sleep is somewhat valid, but you must understand what happens after that (resurrection) and also during that (waking heart).
True, the church is to keep getting better, but, true, the world is to keep getting worse.
The seals, trumpets, and bowls represent 21 specific limited curses on the wicked, but the churches, signs, and angels represent 21 specific unlimited blessings on the righteous.
The present day is most directly applied to the section Revelation 3:14-6:11. Chapter 4 has fully happened but is partially fulfilled, chapter 5 is partially fulfilled but hasn’t fully happened.
u/colinsackorpick is accurate that Revelation majorly describes the end of the wicked, and validly applies it to the Q plan, which resembles Revelation in microcosm but is not the same endtime.
u/PowTimesTwo is accurate that Revelation majorly tests on Hebrew-Scripture knowledge, but the righteous during the seven-year covenant are our brothers and sisters in Messiah and no less. Also accurate is that massive persecution and mass religious executions are coming including before the rapture, but “beheaded” is a bad translation that undercuts one’s case; the word means just “struck down”.
u/Datasinc and u/Riddance are accurate that Revelation refers in code to the siege of Jerusalem whether or not it was written afterward, but remember the best time to exit the city was 68 (siege lifted) rather than 70, and there is also a future catching away of the righteous according to Thessalonians regardless of how we name or define it or how the wicked are “swept away”. Also accurate is that extreme dispensationalism weakens the Gospel, but Ephesians does teach there is a present dispensation (economy) and a different one to come, and there are differences of administration in the past indicated generally by Scripture.
I am interested in followups for clarification.
Not just preaching the gospel. That's only part of what we should do. We are supposed to take DOMINION over the earth.
Christians founded this nation and used to run the government. Our constitution and bill of rights were based off of principles found in the Bible.
Schools, hospitals, and collages used to be run by the church.
Abortion used to be outlawed. i.e. When was the last time your church saved a life of someone about to murder their baby at PP? We are commanded to spread the gospel and stand in the gap for the innocent and for justice.
Christians used to start projects and build things that wouldn't be realized in their lifetimes for their children and grandchildren. Legacies. But not these days. No one that believes in the rapture is thinking 100+ years into the future.
Christians have retreated to their Christian ghettos instead of building and fighting and hand their children over to the state to teach and raise and are SHOCKED when those kids leave the church. They heard the gospel so by your standards everything was done correctly right?
EVERYTHING belongs to Christ. Church, Schools, Biz, Media, Entertainment, courts, justice. If you're not out there fighting for it then you are an unfaithful servant. A son of a king that ignores his inheritance.
Not just preaching the gospel. That's only part of what we should do. We are supposed to take DOMINION over the earth.
Christians founded this nation and used to run the government. Our constitution and bill of rights were based off of principles found in the Bible.
Schools, hospitals, and collages used to be run by the church.
Abortion used to be outlawed. i.e. When was the last time your church saved a life of someone about to murder their baby at PP? We are commanded to spread the gospel and stand in the gap for the innocent and for justice.
Christians used to start projects and build things that wouldn't be realized in their lifetimes for their children and grandchildren. Legacies. But not these days. No one that believes in the rapture is thinking 100+ years into the future.
Christians have retreated to their Christian ghettos instead of building and fighting and hand their children over to the state to teach and raise and are SHOCKED when those kids leave the church. They heard the gospel so by your standards everything was done correctly right?
EVERYTHING belongs to Christ. Church, Schools, Biz, Media, Entertainment, courts, justice. If you're not out there fighting for it then you are an unfaithful servant. A son of a king that ignores his inheritance.
Can I tell you I had this same thought?
My mom would tell me that revelations is about what’s going to happen to US but that does not reconcile with MY perspective on God and faith... so I began thinking about revelations and I came to the same conclusion.
Revelations is a warning for those who follow the enemy and what will happen to THEM for not turning from their wickedness and repenting.. it is a warning for those who may think to join God’s enemy but for those who follow his Word, the outcome and punishment is not for us..
Same thoughts so you know others are also thinking this and I love it!!!
I believe it is an end to evil and the beginning of a new era. Not the end of humanity. Jesus as king on Earth or the new earth so it says.
It makes sense that what God wanted for us was to live in the garden of Eden and since the original sin he has worked to get us back there, Jesus washing our sin away so we can get back there. Now to crush the serpent’s seed and fulfill the plan.
I wasn’t taught that we all go to heaven, and if you read the Bible it says that the dead are “asleep” and revelation says that Jesus will raise the dead. Will the dead literally rise on Earth and be restored? Idk seems amazing! Something to think about.
I also think that some of the symbolism has already come to pass. It could be easy to miss if you don’t know what you’re looking for. I have always felt like something BIG would happen while I was alive. I’m in late 30s now and I still feel that way.
I’m excited for Jesus to return if that happens during my time. I don’t want it to happen too soon though, I want all to have a chance to accept him and repent so they can be a part of the awesome new World that our God is gifting us.
If you are interested in further examination, I found the interpretations on RonWyatt.com very illuminating, under the section "the times in which we live." It was the first time I saw an interpretation of Revelation that made sense to me.
The end of the space-time universe is a Greek concept, not a Hebrew concept. Therefore, you are correct that it is NOT about the end of humanity.
The climax of the book is the restoration of creation to its intended purpose and order: God in direct fellowship/relationship with people. Although this involves the destruction of evil, that is not the main focus.
The revelation was given to Christians either in the middle or about to enter intense persecution for their faith. The purpose was to reassure them that no matter how terrible or chaotic there temporary experiences were, God was still in control of everything. Before his throne the tossing chaotic sea was calmed to such an extent that it was like crystal and ultimately would disappear.
The book was never written to be difficult to understand. The primary intended audience would understand EXACTLY what John was saying (John was never thinking "I have no idea what this means, but I'll write it down anyway"). We find it difficult to understand because we are from a different time and culture.
I have always thought that. Thank you for putting this out there.
I believe this is exactly what was foretold! I also believe the tree of life is the human blood stream and we are the fruit. They are cannibals at the top of this, sounds crazy I know, but once you consider Adrenochrome...what is the real forbidden fruit?
There is no Book of Revelations, which is the first hint that tells me that Biblical knowledge isn't your forte. John wrote the Book of Revelation. And anyone who believes that Q has anything to do with religion other than the fact that those in Q may be Christians truly does not understand the Christian faith. There is only one savior and His name is Christ. Q and President Trump may be being used, but they are not biblical.
While I do not buy that Q has anything to do with the true end times, I have a theory. First, though, you can understand Revelation if you study it and realize that it is like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces missing, but some of those pieces have fallen into place within some of our lifetimes. Revelation does not describe the end of humanity. In fact, for a period of a thousand years following the tribulation, mankind continues, and even after Jesus returns, mankind still has freewill. After that is the final judgment. Mankind always continues. We don't turn into angels. Our bodies are changed, but there will be bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial.
But if we know our Biblical history, we know that God has presented us pictures of the anti-Christ. These people were not the anti-Christ (Xerxes, Hitler ...) Is it possible that God could be presenting us with a picture of the thousand years? Could He be cleaning up the evil to give us a picture of what life will be like during Christ's 1,000 year reign? Could He be allowing this to happen to show that we have a choice between good and evil and no matter how good the world can become with love and peace, there are those who will still choose evil?
Q is not God. Q is not a religion. Q is not in the Bible. I have a great hope that God is using Q and President Trump in a mighty way to revive the world, but it doesn't stop me from responsibly thinking of other scenarios like what if Q were the pot of boiling water, and those following Q are jumping in the pot, and the anons are turning up the heat in an attempt to keep We the People from taking action against the evil? If you want to see an example of what I'm talking about, watch the way that last thought will be jumped upon on this forum.
But truly, I pray that God is giving us a look at what Christ's reign will be like on this earth. If he can show us the bad, he can definitely show us a picture of the good. But that's all it would be: a picture just like the pictures of anti-Christ (one of which is spoken of in the Bible as just that, a picture of the anti-Christ).
Please be careful with falling into the unitarianism view of Q and the Great Awakening. The COEXIST movement is from Satan and is also a worship of Satan. All you need to know about unitarianism is that the letter at the end, the letter that represents the religion and the only One True God is the one that most unitarians deny as they worship the other false gods. The One True God cannot represent all of the false religions of the world, or as I said to my once unitarian-believing m-i-l on September 11, 2001, "How can the same god who drove those men to fly those planes into those buildings be the same God who loved all those people who died?" I hope that pondering that statement wakes up people the way it did her. She was shaken by the truth and sought the One True God and worshiped Christ as Savior. Repenting of our sin and recognizing Christ as Savior will definitely open up much of the Book of Revelation to those who study it. Until then, most of it will remain a mystery because God gives us the Holy Spirit to open up Truth to us by bringing to remembrance all things that Jesus taught.
Thanks so much for your expertise.
The post was intended to generate discussion. All alternative thoughts were in the form of a question.
I did not in any way form or fashion imply that Q was GOD or religion or even in the Bible.
I think you missed the point.
I commented a few other times, and I agree. I probably did misunderstand what you were saying. We may even be on the same wavelength and saying it in different ways.
I believe God is in whatever's happening as He is involved in everything that happens. I just pray that whatever is happening is occurring to show us a picture of what life will be. I really do not want to believe that our country, the last truly free country (as we once believed freedom) was lost without a shot fired through a stolen election and that is all there is.
I agree and I refuse to believe that the last bastion of Freedom on the planet has been lost.
^
Excellent post and I was recently entertaining this same what if. When the earth was destroyed before, it was to rid it of evil. Not to end humanity.
Matthew 24:13 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
By the way, I say Revelations also. Its just how we talk around here. We can still have "good educated discussion" without nitpicking.
Thank you!
I think we get caught up in the trees sometimes and miss the forest! Then there's those that have to be right all the time!
Revelations is three things imo: 1&2. A split prophecy that could apply to either side 3. A description of our apocalyptic past
They've tried to coopt the prophecy to make Christians complacent/demoralized so they can slide this totalitarian state through unchallenged.
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You could be wrong, but I also had this epiphany in recent weeks. The meme that opened my eyes was a person in a guy fawkes mask holding a sign that said “the beginning is near.”
I don't think the vaccine passport is The Mark, but a stepping stone in that direction, perhaps. I think the actual mark is going to require "Knowingly" pledging allegiance to the Antichrist and it will change your DNA to something no longer fully human, but will make someone become "seed of the serpent," thus why repentance/salvation becomes an impossibility. It goes back to the seed war of Genesis 3. LA Marzulli has some excellent works on this. I just finished his new book, "Countermove: How the Nephilim Returned After the Flood." It was very good!
The beast was Nero. That part is long over.
You're spot on.
The Original meaning of Apocalypse:
Revelation is not hard to understand if you study the 65 books that come before it...
Revelation 3:7-10 New International Version To the Church in Philadelphia 7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Kim Clement refers to God calling Trump his David https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjE7XmsX5UU
I didn't say anything about Trump.
No, you didn't mention Trump. That's true. It's just that the equating of what the Book of Revelation describes with Q makes it seem as if Q is taking the place of God. Revelation is understandable, and it isn't the only book in the Bible with prophecy of the end times. Daniel includes it and so does Matthew (chapter 24). There are other pictures in the major and minor prophets. As noted in my comment, I have no problem believing that God can show us a picture of the 1,000 year reign of Christ and use men or a computer or whatever Q is and a man like President Trump to show us that picture. I cannot believe, however, that Q is God or that Q can bring on the 1,000 year reign which will then lead us into an eternity of goodness. My belief that He can do so if He wishes to do so is based on the biblical fact that He has shown us pictures of the anti-Christ. We just have to be very careful with what we equate to Q. Q is not God.
For those who mentioned they don't want to see heaven, my heart bleeds for them. Heaven isn't utopia. Heaven is the place where God resides, where we will live with Him in perfection, sanctified by His mercy, to live and serve Him forever.
Okay, I'm not equating anything. I asked a question-- What if Q is referencing the book of Revelation.
The post is meant to generate discussion and alternative analysis.
For everyone dead set on the age old analysis, the absolute certainty that what has been taught for ages can not be questioned.....this post isn't for you.
For everyone reading upset that the current interpretation of the book written 2,000 years ago could have a different application, this post isn't for you.
For everyone reading that wants to pick apart the post instead of think about it, this post isn't for you.
I'm not trying to be combative. Honestly, but I had commented back to you that maybe I did misunderstand what you were saying, maybe we were on the same wavelength and coming at it from different directions. However, with your response, I think that we are on different wavelengths, but that's okay with me. Good conversation comes from discussing where we stand on issues. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to bow down to what you believe. Combat conversation is for Twitter, and that's why I explained my tone when I write something. I write for a living, and I edit for a living. I can sound more direct than I really mean to sound. I have a standard apology for all the writers I work with for the publisher I edit for, and I always have to apologize to my poor editor at the publisher I write for. That apology is similar to the one I gave to you in a previous comment but It is sincere. I have trouble turning the switch from work to non-work communication.
Let's just agree to disagree and still remain friendly--and I think you did that in your response. I appreciate it. Maybe we'll see some other people's thoughts that may differ from both of us. I saw a few before I responded.
You can infer anything you want-- however-- the fact is I didn't say anything about Trump.
My point is, this is bigger than him. Maybe he runs for office again, maybe he doesn't.
This is about something other than that.
In a rational discussion all points "stand". Even if they're insulting or in opposition.
What part of > This is intended to generate discussion
do you not understand?
That's using your thinking cap anon ;) Godbless
Revelation was written before 67ad and it, along with the Olivet Discourse and every other End Time prophecy, was about the end of the Old Covenant Age or world. It ended in 70ad. The New Covenant age is spiritual and has no end. We were told repeatedly that Everything had to be fulfilled in 'That' generation. Mystery Babylon was the spiritually adulterous Jerusalem and the Beast was the Roman Empire. Everything is already fulfilled. Plan on making this physical world better for your Children and Grandchildren!
If everything has already been fulfilled, please explain when the catastrophic disasters of the seven trumpets (ie. third of the sea turning into blood, meteor collision, locusts with scorpion stingers) occurred. Who were the two witnesses in Chapter 11? When did the thousand years, final battle, and Satan's judgment in chapter 20 happen?
This person is one of the few in here that knows church history and eschatology and is being downvoted while being 1100% correct.
Believing that your interpretation is the only correct possibility is dangerous; Saul of Tarsus had a lot of knowledge and logic on his side as well, before taking the road to Damascus. There are other interpretations that can be backed by church history, human history and eschatology.
See my other comment.
And how is building, fighting, and spreading the gospel instead of rolling over for Satan dangerous exactly?
Uhh, what? Spreading the gospel is great! How'd you get the idea I'm against that? Or in favor of surrender to Satan? I'm just saying to be careful of assuming that your interpretation of the gospel is the only one possible. Peace, brother.
At no point did I suggest either one of those things. You must be looking at the wrong comment
It's The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Singular, and it says they take over for 7 years before their demise.
I think they took over a long time ago. Forgive the extra "S". Where I come from, we refer to it as Revelations...regardless of how it's spelled.
They have been in charge behind the scenes since the time of Nimrod. I am hoping God has granted the USA repentance like He did with Nineveh and Trump returns to the Presidency but I do believe everyone should be prepared and put your faith in Jesus for all Christians are just passing through this world. Revelation is the only Book in the Bible that promises YOU a blessing for reading it. Everything in it is explained in other parts of the Bible---all the symbols and such. Have a blessed day!
Revelation also mentions our Rapture. There is nothing from Q that even comes close to describing such a thing.
"The dead in Christ shall rise" also has no meaning in Q.
I suggest you watch Kim Clement's prophecy videos. I only heard of him recently, but was immediately struck by the similarities to the present day, from prophecies given 6-12 years ago. His discussions show he is very well-versed in the Bible, and his prophecies involve a bright future, and he admonishes those with the preconception that all prophets should be doomers. I haven't seen one where he specifically expounds on the Revelation to John, but many of his prophecies and statements seem directly applicable.
Seen 'em. My favorite part was "They'll try to put a witch in the White House".
I liked the specific call-out for Rudy Giuliani. "Oh, you may mock him!" But he has some discussions about how many prophets fail to talk about God's glory, love, mercy and kindness, and only talk about bad stuff. A few of them seemed to reference today's times. There are other prophets that have been talking about upcoming revivals, and glorious transformation of society, Kent Christmas in particular (Dec 13 was fun, but there are others, and he has quiet moments too).
Check out FreedomForce.Live Melissa has linked up the Q posts to the Bible. It is really, really good!
thank you!
Not to pick, but the book is called Revelation, not Revelations. If you want to have good, educated discussion, you need to make sure of these things. It matters.
LOL! Okay my mistake-- but inside the book are revelations. P.S. that's picking.
Good point on the "revelations." Yes, the book is full of them. I was one who did the picking, too, but it is important to be very careful when we speak of Scripture, and those who know the title does not have an "s" at the end, are discerning the true level of understanding of Biblical principles and truths. This may seem minor, but it truly is major. If we can't discern the small things, we will never discern the larger things, and Scripture and the teaching of Scripture should never be taken lightly. The Word tells us that misleading whether intentionally or unintentionally is a serious matter.
God bless. I'm glad that you are looking into the Scriptures. I may have sounded as if I thought otherwise. I hope that you will continue to seek the truth. I sometimes do sound in my writing as if I'm coming down on someone. It's the editor and author in me. We're tough on folks because we get in a thought mode when trying to explain edits or even to offer up excuses (authors) for why we included something the editor deletes. So, I apologize for the way I presented my thoughts. I could have been nicer.
Nope it was ONE revelation by an angel to a man warning him of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem.
I'm sorry I dont want to live in "paradise." You cant have a utopia. We learned this in the Matrix - you grow bored, you stagnate and eventually begin to devolve and invent issues to work on.
I dont want to go to Heaven when I die. I just want to sleep forever and be done with it.
Please note that "going to heaven" is not the goal. In Revelation, heaven comes down to earth.
Why would you use the Matrix as an ultimate guide? It does introduce some interesting ideas but it is not ultimate truth.
If a perfect God exists, then a utopia should also be possible. A human-made utopia may be an impossibility, but that is due to our own imperfections and the fallen creation in which we live.
However, if all things can be made new...
God is infinitely intelligent and creative. We will be, too. We will not be bored with an eternity of creativity.
you guys sound like a cult lol but each to his own
Morality is a scale in my view. You dont judge a crocodile for eating a puppy if the puppy goes for a swim in its swamp. It just murdered a small creature but did so to eat/protect itself.
There is so much nuance in morality, and "right and wrong" is not black and white. God can judge me all he wants, but as long as I can hold my head up and justify why I did things in my life that's all I care about.