Just to clarify: you believe in a God that is capable of breathing entire galaxies into existence; a God capable of designing the complex systems within our body and furthermore created all of mankind in His own image and likeness....
Yet you also believe that very same God is not capable of inspiring and guiding human minds to translate and record His word accurately and without error-- basically His only instruction manual to humanity; you believe God is not powerful enough to ensure that His word is kept sacred and without blemish.
Those pesky humans with their finite minds have outsmarted the infinte God that created them.
There’s a big difference between believing God COULD do something and believing God DID do something. Your argument seems to conflate the two.
The Bible is littered with great stuff, but only an idiot would buy this “because God COULD inspire men to create a perfect book that lacks nothing for our salvation, we must assume that he DID.”
Yeah. God COULD have destroyed the cabal thousands of years ago and make sure it
never returned. But he didn’t, did he?
If there’s one lesson every Christian should take from the Bible it’s this: men can talk to God and God can talk back, and men, when they exercise faith in God, and in themselves as children of God, can work mighty miracles. The Bible was never meant to be your guide. It was never meant to replace the voice of God. If it does anything, really, it points us toward mediation, prayer, faith, and righteousness. But the Catholics tricked you with the story of Saul/Paul and littered the book with his false doctrine of repackaged Old Testament idolatry. But instead of a golden calf, it’s a man on a cross. And rather than follow that man’s teachings and example, you tell yourselves you’re good cause you’re “saved.” Talk about the lazy path of least resistance. No wonder so many people are into it.
Jesus didn’t come to wash away our sins. He came to teach us how to avoid them, make amends for them, and reach our full potential as children of God. He died for the same reason all the prophets before him died: because those who live in the dark and hate the light didn’t want to relinquish their power and they put him down to shut him up. He went willingly though because just like the prophets of old and those who came after, he knew the power of non-resistance and knew the power of not resisting evil, just like he taught, and knew that dying for what he believed brought a power to the world all on its own. Don’t let the Bible be your God. Let it point you to him. Let it help you get into the headspace to communicate with Him through prayer, but don’t forget to actually communicate with him. Else your faith is worthless and your life will be nothing but a string of excuses for failing at things you absolutely could have excelled at.
For if miracles have ceased, then faith has ceased, for miracles are wrought by faith. And if faith has ceased, whoa unto the children if men, for all is vain.
Lots to unpack here but once again, this entire reply has no biblical basis whatsoever. It is just your opinion. Literally everything I have said can be backed up by scripture.
And if Jesus didn't come to wash away sins then none of it matters anyway because you still stand guilty in front of God. What foolishness. No amount of "works" and self-diagnosing yourself as a good person gains you access to heaven. And no amount of "I passed the test! the bible is all wrong, its a trap because I think so" gets you there either.
I'll say it again. If scripture is not reliable then the entire Christian faith falls flat on its face. Miracles haven't ceased; that dusty book on your coffee table that you turn your nose up at is one of them.
Backed up by a scripture that was compiled by the cabal. But keep banging that drum. And I know that dusty book on my table like the back of my hand (but nice country song reference). Its value is unquestioned. Your faith, however, and your intelligence if you haven’t learned the main lesson it had to teach you despite the bullshit the cabal put in there, that’s on you. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t force him to walk on it. Keep your nose in the book if you want. For those in my house, we choose to apply it.
And yes, your “Christianity” does fall on its face. Christ warned of wolves in sheeps clothing who would teach things he never said. Paul showed up, taught. bullshit gospel of easy salvation instead of the gospel that Jesus taught, and all if you ignored where that came from and lapped it up like warm milk. I’ve yet to hear a single self proclaimed born again Christian quote more than one verse of Jesus to back up their positions. They quote Paul to no end though. Sad that so many people on this site still can’t admit this to themselves. Keep repeating your mantras though.
I'm curious to know why you even have one? I mean "its value is unquestioned" but its content is faulty, misaligned, evil and tampered with. Whats the point?
And these scrolls? Have you translated the originals yourself? How do you know their content is gospel? How do you know they haven't been tampered with?
By your logic, how do you know the teachings of Jesus are really even his teachings? What if the smarter-than-God-himself "cabal" only included what they wanted you to think Jesus taught and left all the important stuff out? How would you ever know the truth unless you personally witnessed Jesus 2000 years ago? What if Jesus really taught that the way to salvation is walking backwards your entire life with your head up your ass so that you don't have to face reality? You would be his greatest disciple!
Futhermore, why are you even on here? How does God win in the end and extinguish evil when He couldn't even defend His own word? What if He "allows" evil to win just to teach everyone a "lesson".... you know, like when He allowed the bad bad men to pervert His doctrine!!
I think the warning about wolves, false prophets and false teachings are exactly this. Those who discredit God by trying to sew seeds of doubt concerning Him into the minds of others.
Spripture is Gods word. It is holy. And the way it has been compiled is only the way God allowed it to be. It reveals who He is and what His Son did for us to repair a chasm created by sin. Whats in it is what He intended for us to know and follow and what is not in it He did not. Mortal men, regardless of how wicked their intentions may be, cannot overpower or outsmart the limitless God that created them. Sorry.
The Bible is a massive history of stories of men and women communicating with God. When Jesus left his disciples he told them he would send the Holy Ghost to guide them, not some book. The book has value but is subject to be altered by evil men. I find great value in reading the book and asking God for guidance in understanding what is true and what isn’t. See: James 1:5.
As for the scrolls, they’re open to the same scrutiny. I don’t read them and accept what they say blindly either. When something resonates as true it resonates. When it doesn’t it doesn’t. I didn’t mean to offer some defense of the scrolls or to claim they were more credible than the Bible. I don’t think I said anything that implied that either.
As for why I’m here and how I think God could eventually win this war, I think that because I think God CAN do anything, but whether or not he does depends largely upon us, and the faith we’re willing to exert collectively to bring his will into alignment with reality. God gave us agency, and when men don’t exercise that agency for good, He clearly doesn’t stand in their way. But I have faith humanity can finally get it done this time, so here I am.
As for me sowing doubt about God’s word, I’ve done nothing of the sort in my mind. I trust God’s word completely. The problem as I see it is that because the only place you’ve ever found God’s word is in the Bible, you haven’t considered the possibility that not everything in there is His Word. You’re operating under the same circular logic you learned in church as a child and haven’t given room for any other possibility. But I have. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me and help me identify that which is truly God’s word and that which is merely the doctrines of men. You seem to not believe you have that ability. And as long as you refuse to believe that, your life will reflect that. But if you’ll exercise the faith of just a tiny mustard seed that God can speak to you directly, making you reliant upon your own revelations rather than on those of others you perceive as being better than you somehow, then your life would really open up.
And once again, your claim that mortal men cannot outsmart God is not being challenged here. So you can stop with that straw man. Men cannot outsmart God, obviously, but they can outsmart other men, and God will not force anyone to obey him and thus, the world finds itself in the state we’re in despite Him. Become part of the solution. Exercise faith in Him and in yourself as His child to change the world, and if enough of us do it, the prophecy of Habakkuk will finally be realized. God wills it. Let’s see if this time enough men will it too in order to make it a reality.
or that that same god has made it difficult on purpose because we need to be tested. that he requires that we use the discernment that he has built into our beings to question the errors of our fellow me. that we learn to have ears that hear and eyes that see.
in short, that god made an imperfect world that we must work our way through, why would one make your assumption instead?
Because my assumption is not an assumption- its actually backed up by scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 whereas the first half of yours has no biblical basis whatsoever.
The world is sinful, yes. But Jesus made a way for us to navigate through it and find God on the other side. He constantly used Scripture as a weapon against Satan and as a tool for teaching others the true nature of God.
If any part of Scripture is wrong then that ruins the credibility of all of Scripture and without Scripture to tell you who God is, you are basically creating God to be whatever you want Him to be with no basis or justification behind your "assumptions"
because you can't bother to learn and do research, actually. because you make the assumption that the council of nicea was competent and unbiased. that they weren't bribed to within an inch of their lives.
or, simply because you refuse to look at the world around you. this is made to be a struggle. in the garden we were given something that no one else had--free will. the angels don't have free will. that means that lucifer's rebellion was under orders and that all the rest of that suffering is a part of creation as well. god wants us to struggle and do our best.
Anytime people start questioning the completeness of the Bible or Mainstream Christian Doctrine. It’s 50/50 odds The comments turn into an entertaining shit show of arguments.
But yes. I’ve been delving into ancient texts a time or two. Anyone who truly seeks to understand History. Should make at least an attempt. Whether you believe in the information therein or not. There is still things to learn and gain from ancient texts and schools of thought.
Some people think that’s why the Catholic Church and many European Nobles tried to wipe out the Templars. The Knights found something in the Holy Land that the Church and many Kings and leaders at the time would have preferred remained buried. And the debt was a pretext and cover.
It’s not that being open to the concept that the Bible is incomplete or altered is unfounded.
See: “Thou shalt not kill.” Vs. “Thou shalt not commit murder.” Very, very, very important difference. “Thou shalt not commit murder.” has further expoundings on exactly what constitutes murder, and when it is justifiable to kill, and what should be done in different situations - which clearly confirms that killing is allowed in specific circumstances, but the church won’t teach them or acknowledge those scriptures.
It’s that random claims on the internet aren’t good enough to overturn what we can be fairly sure is accurate to at least 200 years or so, very likely much farther, and very few people are going to have the means to TRULY test them.
It’s also much easier to delve into what’s actually there and see if anything has been taught incorrectly. This has definitely happened, without question. Look no further than the recent Methodist schism for a very clear current example.
My biggest problem with gnostics is that they’re VERY big on claims, WILD claims, and almost never provide even halfway decent sauce. Being open to course corrections is one thing, but it would also take a fool to change their entire worldview without very evidence and ponderance.
Random claims from the internet sure. But a surviving translation from scrolls that predate the adoption of Christanity into the roman empire and new testiment in general? just complaring the gospels after so long its like the telephone game kids used to play, except people left out a bunch of stuff they didn't want imo. We will probably never know the full truth but i think we can paint a pretty good summary picture.
If you are a history turd like me and love history and alternate history and possibly some type of Aliens that this 4chan post is for you. However you can ingore all that and just start reading the Dead sea scrolls to read the truest translations of word of Christ directly after he said them to his disciples.
This is my favorite so far after starting my journey into relearning Christanity as it was meant to be learned.
Has anyone else dived into these scrolls? The few things that strike out to me from Thomas gospel is the teachings are so raw and enlightened. You can tell how much stuff was made up in the new testament or dragged out. Everything out here is raw.
Couple great quotes for you:
(16)
Yeshua said,
People may think I have come to impose peace upon the world.
They do not know that I have come to impose conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house.
There will be three against two and two against three,
father against son and son against father,
and they will stand alone.
(102)
Yeshua said,
Shame on the Pharisees.
They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger.
It does not eat or let the cattle eat.
(107)
Yeshua said,
The kingdom is like a shepherd who had
a hundred sheep.
One of them, the largest, went astray.
He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it.
After so much trouble he said to the sheep,
“I love you more than the ninety-nine.”
(48)
Yeshua said,
If two make peace with each other in one house,
they will tell the mountain, “Move,”
and the mountain will move.
I have trod the Gnostic path for many years now. I struggled with the texts in general, but I got the gist. These days I get my guidance from the horse's mouth, so to speak :)
Great passages and "raw" is a good description. Have studied these manuscripts back in the 1990s at length. Some of these ancient scrolls have yet to be translated. Since you are someone after my own heart, the Coelbren or Kolbrin Bible may also interest you and may give you a better understanding of Matt 24, being that we are at the end of the age of grace. The Book of Manuscripts describes what is coming, with more details than what Matthew gives us, but its scary stuff. There is also much on the youth of Yashua/Jesus whom was with Joseph of Arimathea at the time and we learn that he never grew up in Judea, He was far away in a safe place. Some of my professors at theological seminary discouraged us from studying the Gnostic texts. Best wishes.
The fact that wickipidia deleted its entry on this Kolbrin Bible, alone, tells me something here needs looking at. Not saying it's true or false but their history tells me I should look it over at the very least.
You will enjoy the research, it can become quite controversial but it will fill in the blanks on many thoughts and questions that you may have had of our wonderful Scriptures.
I’ve read English translations of all the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I’ve read many dead sea scrolls in Hebrew. Absolutely nothing you reference has anything to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don’t reject what you say because I disagree, I reject it because you don’t know what you’re talking about. History has been messed with, but you still have to have evidence for claims.
I have heard of Gnostics in the 300's, A.D. and Gnostics in Southern France at the time of the Crusades. The earlier Gnostics pointed out that the God of the old testament was different from the God of the new testament. The old testament God chose sides and sent people to war. The God of Jesus was universally loving. The authorities at the time said there was only one God and killed the Gnostics. They also killed the later Gnostics. Well, those Gnostics walked into a fire rather than be converted.
At least one error in this, going to bed so won't write a lot but Anunaki are not the good guys, they are the race of giants, rothchilds and some other DS bloodlines have some Anunaki blood in them(have been some pictures floating around showing the slightly different skull shape that is the result)....
If you don't have the Holy Spirit in you, then I can see how you go down these paths (or rabbit holes) without any foundation or sense of what is true and what are lies. But if you actually study Christian apologetics, study the history if the Bible, and seek Truth, and God, you will find it. Jesus said, "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you". But if your heart is to disprove Christianity, that will take you on a different path, one that will lead to death, bitterness, disillusionment, etc. You can post all sorts of nonsense, and come up with all the so-called secret knowledge of Gnostics, but my experience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit--who teaches us, loves us, fills us with peace and joy that are indescribable--these are not things I can "prove", only testify that they are indeed real.
I came to a point several years ago in which I decided to stand on faith on the Word of God as written. If it is wrong, for some reason unbeknownst to me, then I can still stand before God on Judgement Day and be judged by what I believed was God's Word. I have lived an incredibly blessed life, filled with joy from the Lord, so I know what the Bible says is Truth. You can choose to believe other things--that is your right. But understand that there will be a Judgement Day and you need to have believed in and accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. May you find him and be saved.
If you’re getting theology from 4ch you’re beyond gullible. Once people are convinced to believe in nothing they’ll believe in anything. I’m skeptical by nature, especially when somebody shady says “Buddy, you been bamboozled, lemme setcha straight.”
I've actually come full circle on this stuff. I obsessively deep dived for so many years trying to connect the puzzle pieces until it started to unravel. I used to be convinced but now I don't believe any of it. I know the source material for some of this. The messiah mission that mary and john the baptist's mother were part of came from the edgar cayce readings. He had a lot to say about this. They were like a cult that were determined to bring the messiah and raised jesus to be so. This all comes from him and you can read about it in one of his books. Yahweh being described like a dragon is kinda true. It comes from an older Jewish text, forgot the name of it. There is a pretty weird back story about it all. Even in the bible there's still references to the fire. Jesus not dying but escaping to india is an old tale that came from someone's book. I followed that rabbit hole until I found where it came from, so disappointing. Yes there is a place in india where they claim he is buried and that he lived to an old age. Funny thing is, this exact mythical story exists in japan too. Jesus was very popular, most famous person on earth, and other cultures have learned how to capitalize on it. Anyhow, you know how it goes, people take a little of this, and a little of that, and creatively fill in some blank spaces, and then an irresistible mystery is born, one that can hold your attention for decades, until you finally reach the end of the rabbit hole to realize it only pulled you off the path this whole time. Whatever really happened in the past has been erased from time. We will never know the truth. And anyone who claims to know the truth has either been fooled himself, or is lying on purpose.
You are exactly right!!!! Only those that conform to modern politically correct Biblical knowledge are released to the public. Many of these scrolls have yet to be translated. I have a book in my library that I bought decades ago published in 1991, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception which covers many issues as to why the scrolls are being slow walked in their translation and why some are being held from the public. Its true that some of these scrolls are so disintegrated that they have to piece them all together like a puzzle then translate them, which takes a lot of time. Funny thing however, is that they have had a difficult time deciphering the so-called Copper Scroll because it is written in true ancient Hebrew which was lost after the Babylonian captivity and none of the scholars that control the scrolls today can read ancient Hebrew. I only know of two historians that can read ancient Hebrew and they have been maligned by the academe to shut them up. They did cut the Copper Scroll up in pieces with a diamond saw instead of unrolling it because they said is was too fragile, but I have yet to see what the whole text looks like. Photos of it have always only shown some of the text but never the whole thing. When Nehemiah and Ezra returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, Ezra bemoaned that fact that his people no longer understood the old Hebrew language. Ezra had to verbally translate from the books of the prophets and speak in the Chaldee for the congregation to understand. What people call Hebrew today is really only modern Hebrew which is actually Eastern Aramaic or Chaldee and was only introduced by the Babylonian scribes that came with Ezra at Jerusalem. The Babylonian scribes then introduced a new system of writting called quadratic script which they still use today. This script is nowhere near what the true ancient Hebrew looks like. My two cents.
Quite right. As you stated the original Hebrew (paleo-Hebrew) was already lost to antiquity for over a thousand years.
Look up "Hebrew" and even Wikipedia tells us that the written Hebrew of modern times (neo-Hebrew) is not paleo-Hebrew. Paleo-Hebrew is the original writings of the books of the Old Testament (OT).
Modern written Hebrew is based on the work by the Masoretes in 900 AD. Who are the Masoretes? They are Pharisaic Jews (Pharisees), who recreated a new written 'Hebrew' from Afroasiatic language family (Arabic) and Aramaic to successful 'revive' a dead language. Even Wikipedia admits to modern Hebrew as being a revived dead language (Albeit, you might have to use the Wayback Machine to see earlier postings). The original written Hebrew had only consonants and it depended on an oral tradition of learned scholars to know what the words meant. The Masoretes created a new written 'Hebrew' that had vowel points. These are any of a group of auxiliary symbols, as small lines and dots, placed above or below consonant symbols to indicate vowels in a writing system. Arabic uses vowel points. The Masoretes finished translating the New Hebrew version from the Septuagint in the 10th Century AD. The Masoretic Text, as it is called, was accepted as being the basis of all Protestant Bibles. In the same period, it was used as a source, along with later Greek Texts (such as the Miniscules, etc.) as the basis for the Textus Receptus. From the Masoretic Text, the King James Version was transliterated.
The oldest Bible OT there is the Septuagint, which was transliterated from the original paleo-Hebrew into koine Greek in circa 285 BC. As you mention from Ezra's time, the original Hebrew written language was in trouble and it only got worse under the Hellenic influence and was becoming extinct.
According to tradition, it was Ptolemy Philadelphus, who purchased the freedom of Israelites in his territories, arranged for 6 scholars from each of the 12 tribes to translate the first 5 books of the Old Testament from paleo-Hebrew into Greek around 285 BC. By this time a practical knowledge of the Hebrew written language was all but lost.
The original written Hebrew consisted only of consonants and relied on an oral knowledge to decipher the consonant-only words. Think of the English word 'cat' and remove the vowel. It becomes 'ct'. Without the vowel, the word 'ct' could be cat, cot, cut, cute, acute, coat, etc. An individual of knowledge would be required to orally teach others what the word 'ct' was. This is how the priestly class taught and passed on the writings of the bible. The paleo-Hebrew writings were designed for deciphering the bible using scribes trained to it. The written paleo-Hebrew was dependent on an individual trained in understanding it. This is how the Hebrew written language was passed down generation after generation. It was central to understanding the bible.
With the written Hebrew language being greatly eclipsed and dominated by the very popular Greek language, which was the international language of the day, Hebrew was in great peril of being lost forever. Ptolemy gathered together 72 scholars and in a short period of time they completed the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is from Greek pentáteuchos and is the first five books of the Old Testament. The Latin name 'Septuagint' means 70, and was later applied to the translation in circa 1555 AD, for there was approximately 70 translators. This is also the reason why the abbreviation 'LXX' is used for this reason. After the first 5 books were finished, the translators set out to work on the rest of the OT. The exact date this was accomplished is not known, but it is certain the complete OT was finished within 100 years and it is likely it was completed within a few years by the same translators.
Great overview Tewdryg! Its so nice to hear from someone that also knows the truth of things. Its also important to note that it was from the Septuagint that Yashua/Jesus Christ drew His teachings from, and NOT from the Babylonian Talmud, better known as the Tradition of the Elders now known as the religion of JUDAISM which is practiced to this day by modern Jewry. That is why I always cringe when I hear the term Judeo-Christian from ignorant Christians that have no clue as to what they are saying. The term Judeo-Christian is an oxymoron, it is of two opposites. Our Christian Bible is derived from HEBRAISM not Judaism. Hebraic-Christian is an acceptable term. As such, we can also say that the Septuagint is based on HEBRAISM not from Babylonian Judaism. Therefore, Christ only drew His teachings from the Hebraic writings which made the Pharisee serpents squirm. I love the entire chapter of John 8 where Jesus exposes Pharisees as to whom they really are including their seedline. Best wishes.
Lost me at the Bible is the book of satan….
From what I understand from people referencing First Tongue, “Satan” is translated to mean “lawyer”. Same thing? hee hee. Clif High mentioned this.
you can ignore the rambling of the 4chan post and just read the dead sea scrolls
Just to clarify: you believe in a God that is capable of breathing entire galaxies into existence; a God capable of designing the complex systems within our body and furthermore created all of mankind in His own image and likeness....
Yet you also believe that very same God is not capable of inspiring and guiding human minds to translate and record His word accurately and without error-- basically His only instruction manual to humanity; you believe God is not powerful enough to ensure that His word is kept sacred and without blemish.
Those pesky humans with their finite minds have outsmarted the infinte God that created them.
Lol. Makes perfect sense.
There’s a big difference between believing God COULD do something and believing God DID do something. Your argument seems to conflate the two.
The Bible is littered with great stuff, but only an idiot would buy this “because God COULD inspire men to create a perfect book that lacks nothing for our salvation, we must assume that he DID.”
Yeah. God COULD have destroyed the cabal thousands of years ago and make sure it never returned. But he didn’t, did he?
If there’s one lesson every Christian should take from the Bible it’s this: men can talk to God and God can talk back, and men, when they exercise faith in God, and in themselves as children of God, can work mighty miracles. The Bible was never meant to be your guide. It was never meant to replace the voice of God. If it does anything, really, it points us toward mediation, prayer, faith, and righteousness. But the Catholics tricked you with the story of Saul/Paul and littered the book with his false doctrine of repackaged Old Testament idolatry. But instead of a golden calf, it’s a man on a cross. And rather than follow that man’s teachings and example, you tell yourselves you’re good cause you’re “saved.” Talk about the lazy path of least resistance. No wonder so many people are into it.
Jesus didn’t come to wash away our sins. He came to teach us how to avoid them, make amends for them, and reach our full potential as children of God. He died for the same reason all the prophets before him died: because those who live in the dark and hate the light didn’t want to relinquish their power and they put him down to shut him up. He went willingly though because just like the prophets of old and those who came after, he knew the power of non-resistance and knew the power of not resisting evil, just like he taught, and knew that dying for what he believed brought a power to the world all on its own. Don’t let the Bible be your God. Let it point you to him. Let it help you get into the headspace to communicate with Him through prayer, but don’t forget to actually communicate with him. Else your faith is worthless and your life will be nothing but a string of excuses for failing at things you absolutely could have excelled at.
For if miracles have ceased, then faith has ceased, for miracles are wrought by faith. And if faith has ceased, whoa unto the children if men, for all is vain.
Lots to unpack here but once again, this entire reply has no biblical basis whatsoever. It is just your opinion. Literally everything I have said can be backed up by scripture.
And if Jesus didn't come to wash away sins then none of it matters anyway because you still stand guilty in front of God. What foolishness. No amount of "works" and self-diagnosing yourself as a good person gains you access to heaven. And no amount of "I passed the test! the bible is all wrong, its a trap because I think so" gets you there either.
I'll say it again. If scripture is not reliable then the entire Christian faith falls flat on its face. Miracles haven't ceased; that dusty book on your coffee table that you turn your nose up at is one of them.
Backed up by a scripture that was compiled by the cabal. But keep banging that drum. And I know that dusty book on my table like the back of my hand (but nice country song reference). Its value is unquestioned. Your faith, however, and your intelligence if you haven’t learned the main lesson it had to teach you despite the bullshit the cabal put in there, that’s on you. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t force him to walk on it. Keep your nose in the book if you want. For those in my house, we choose to apply it.
And yes, your “Christianity” does fall on its face. Christ warned of wolves in sheeps clothing who would teach things he never said. Paul showed up, taught. bullshit gospel of easy salvation instead of the gospel that Jesus taught, and all if you ignored where that came from and lapped it up like warm milk. I’ve yet to hear a single self proclaimed born again Christian quote more than one verse of Jesus to back up their positions. They quote Paul to no end though. Sad that so many people on this site still can’t admit this to themselves. Keep repeating your mantras though.
I'm curious to know why you even have one? I mean "its value is unquestioned" but its content is faulty, misaligned, evil and tampered with. Whats the point?
And these scrolls? Have you translated the originals yourself? How do you know their content is gospel? How do you know they haven't been tampered with?
By your logic, how do you know the teachings of Jesus are really even his teachings? What if the smarter-than-God-himself "cabal" only included what they wanted you to think Jesus taught and left all the important stuff out? How would you ever know the truth unless you personally witnessed Jesus 2000 years ago? What if Jesus really taught that the way to salvation is walking backwards your entire life with your head up your ass so that you don't have to face reality? You would be his greatest disciple!
Futhermore, why are you even on here? How does God win in the end and extinguish evil when He couldn't even defend His own word? What if He "allows" evil to win just to teach everyone a "lesson".... you know, like when He allowed the bad bad men to pervert His doctrine!!
I think the warning about wolves, false prophets and false teachings are exactly this. Those who discredit God by trying to sew seeds of doubt concerning Him into the minds of others.
Spripture is Gods word. It is holy. And the way it has been compiled is only the way God allowed it to be. It reveals who He is and what His Son did for us to repair a chasm created by sin. Whats in it is what He intended for us to know and follow and what is not in it He did not. Mortal men, regardless of how wicked their intentions may be, cannot overpower or outsmart the limitless God that created them. Sorry.
Wow talk about a lot to unpack.
The Bible is a massive history of stories of men and women communicating with God. When Jesus left his disciples he told them he would send the Holy Ghost to guide them, not some book. The book has value but is subject to be altered by evil men. I find great value in reading the book and asking God for guidance in understanding what is true and what isn’t. See: James 1:5.
As for the scrolls, they’re open to the same scrutiny. I don’t read them and accept what they say blindly either. When something resonates as true it resonates. When it doesn’t it doesn’t. I didn’t mean to offer some defense of the scrolls or to claim they were more credible than the Bible. I don’t think I said anything that implied that either.
As for why I’m here and how I think God could eventually win this war, I think that because I think God CAN do anything, but whether or not he does depends largely upon us, and the faith we’re willing to exert collectively to bring his will into alignment with reality. God gave us agency, and when men don’t exercise that agency for good, He clearly doesn’t stand in their way. But I have faith humanity can finally get it done this time, so here I am.
As for me sowing doubt about God’s word, I’ve done nothing of the sort in my mind. I trust God’s word completely. The problem as I see it is that because the only place you’ve ever found God’s word is in the Bible, you haven’t considered the possibility that not everything in there is His Word. You’re operating under the same circular logic you learned in church as a child and haven’t given room for any other possibility. But I have. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me and help me identify that which is truly God’s word and that which is merely the doctrines of men. You seem to not believe you have that ability. And as long as you refuse to believe that, your life will reflect that. But if you’ll exercise the faith of just a tiny mustard seed that God can speak to you directly, making you reliant upon your own revelations rather than on those of others you perceive as being better than you somehow, then your life would really open up.
And once again, your claim that mortal men cannot outsmart God is not being challenged here. So you can stop with that straw man. Men cannot outsmart God, obviously, but they can outsmart other men, and God will not force anyone to obey him and thus, the world finds itself in the state we’re in despite Him. Become part of the solution. Exercise faith in Him and in yourself as His child to change the world, and if enough of us do it, the prophecy of Habakkuk will finally be realized. God wills it. Let’s see if this time enough men will it too in order to make it a reality.
or that that same god has made it difficult on purpose because we need to be tested. that he requires that we use the discernment that he has built into our beings to question the errors of our fellow me. that we learn to have ears that hear and eyes that see.
in short, that god made an imperfect world that we must work our way through, why would one make your assumption instead?
Because my assumption is not an assumption- its actually backed up by scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 whereas the first half of yours has no biblical basis whatsoever.
The world is sinful, yes. But Jesus made a way for us to navigate through it and find God on the other side. He constantly used Scripture as a weapon against Satan and as a tool for teaching others the true nature of God.
If any part of Scripture is wrong then that ruins the credibility of all of Scripture and without Scripture to tell you who God is, you are basically creating God to be whatever you want Him to be with no basis or justification behind your "assumptions"
remind me. why does god have to keep sending prophets?
it has been tampered with. interfered with. get over it.
"Because you say so" 🤣👍
because you can't bother to learn and do research, actually. because you make the assumption that the council of nicea was competent and unbiased. that they weren't bribed to within an inch of their lives.
or, simply because you refuse to look at the world around you. this is made to be a struggle. in the garden we were given something that no one else had--free will. the angels don't have free will. that means that lucifer's rebellion was under orders and that all the rest of that suffering is a part of creation as well. god wants us to struggle and do our best.
actually, let's simplify that.
either satan is taking orders or you have two gods.
The comments here should be interesting.
Anytime people start questioning the completeness of the Bible or Mainstream Christian Doctrine. It’s 50/50 odds The comments turn into an entertaining shit show of arguments.
But yes. I’ve been delving into ancient texts a time or two. Anyone who truly seeks to understand History. Should make at least an attempt. Whether you believe in the information therein or not. There is still things to learn and gain from ancient texts and schools of thought.
Some people think that’s why the Catholic Church and many European Nobles tried to wipe out the Templars. The Knights found something in the Holy Land that the Church and many Kings and leaders at the time would have preferred remained buried. And the debt was a pretext and cover.
It’s not that being open to the concept that the Bible is incomplete or altered is unfounded. See: “Thou shalt not kill.” Vs. “Thou shalt not commit murder.” Very, very, very important difference. “Thou shalt not commit murder.” has further expoundings on exactly what constitutes murder, and when it is justifiable to kill, and what should be done in different situations - which clearly confirms that killing is allowed in specific circumstances, but the church won’t teach them or acknowledge those scriptures.
It’s that random claims on the internet aren’t good enough to overturn what we can be fairly sure is accurate to at least 200 years or so, very likely much farther, and very few people are going to have the means to TRULY test them.
It’s also much easier to delve into what’s actually there and see if anything has been taught incorrectly. This has definitely happened, without question. Look no further than the recent Methodist schism for a very clear current example.
My biggest problem with gnostics is that they’re VERY big on claims, WILD claims, and almost never provide even halfway decent sauce. Being open to course corrections is one thing, but it would also take a fool to change their entire worldview without very evidence and ponderance.
Random claims from the internet sure. But a surviving translation from scrolls that predate the adoption of Christanity into the roman empire and new testiment in general? just complaring the gospels after so long its like the telephone game kids used to play, except people left out a bunch of stuff they didn't want imo. We will probably never know the full truth but i think we can paint a pretty good summary picture.
That's how religion works. That's why there's no way to tell which, if any, version is true.
Oh, my. What have you done?!
Looks like a poorly proofread edit :-)
I reserve the right to edit my own wordings if I decide, on my own, that there is a more correct, accurate, or better way to put something.
If I did that because of someone else, I’d note it. Manners and whatnot.
If you are a history turd like me and love history and alternate history and possibly some type of Aliens that this 4chan post is for you. However you can ingore all that and just start reading the Dead sea scrolls to read the truest translations of word of Christ directly after he said them to his disciples.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom-meyer.html
This is my favorite so far after starting my journey into relearning Christanity as it was meant to be learned.
Has anyone else dived into these scrolls? The few things that strike out to me from Thomas gospel is the teachings are so raw and enlightened. You can tell how much stuff was made up in the new testament or dragged out. Everything out here is raw.
Couple great quotes for you:
(16) Yeshua said, People may think I have come to impose peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to impose conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house. There will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.
(102) Yeshua said, Shame on the Pharisees. They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger. It does not eat or let the cattle eat.
(107) Yeshua said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After so much trouble he said to the sheep, “I love you more than the ninety-nine.”
(48) Yeshua said, If two make peace with each other in one house, they will tell the mountain, “Move,” and the mountain will move.
I have trod the Gnostic path for many years now. I struggled with the texts in general, but I got the gist. These days I get my guidance from the horse's mouth, so to speak :)
Amended. You are referring to the Gospel of Thomas.
Great passages and "raw" is a good description. Have studied these manuscripts back in the 1990s at length. Some of these ancient scrolls have yet to be translated. Since you are someone after my own heart, the Coelbren or Kolbrin Bible may also interest you and may give you a better understanding of Matt 24, being that we are at the end of the age of grace. The Book of Manuscripts describes what is coming, with more details than what Matthew gives us, but its scary stuff. There is also much on the youth of Yashua/Jesus whom was with Joseph of Arimathea at the time and we learn that he never grew up in Judea, He was far away in a safe place. Some of my professors at theological seminary discouraged us from studying the Gnostic texts. Best wishes.
The fact that wickipidia deleted its entry on this Kolbrin Bible, alone, tells me something here needs looking at. Not saying it's true or false but their history tells me I should look it over at the very least.
thanks for posting this. I had never heard of it and am now down a new exciting rabbit hole
You will enjoy the research, it can become quite controversial but it will fill in the blanks on many thoughts and questions that you may have had of our wonderful Scriptures.
I second this. I will also look into this. Thanks
I 3rd this. Very cool.
I’ve read English translations of all the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I’ve read many dead sea scrolls in Hebrew. Absolutely nothing you reference has anything to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don’t reject what you say because I disagree, I reject it because you don’t know what you’re talking about. History has been messed with, but you still have to have evidence for claims.
Gnostics were wife, swapping whores
I have heard of Gnostics in the 300's, A.D. and Gnostics in Southern France at the time of the Crusades. The earlier Gnostics pointed out that the God of the old testament was different from the God of the new testament. The old testament God chose sides and sent people to war. The God of Jesus was universally loving. The authorities at the time said there was only one God and killed the Gnostics. They also killed the later Gnostics. Well, those Gnostics walked into a fire rather than be converted.
It was also very common for them to wife swap, and they became very degenerate.
At least one error in this, going to bed so won't write a lot but Anunaki are not the good guys, they are the race of giants, rothchilds and some other DS bloodlines have some Anunaki blood in them(have been some pictures floating around showing the slightly different skull shape that is the result)....
If you don't have the Holy Spirit in you, then I can see how you go down these paths (or rabbit holes) without any foundation or sense of what is true and what are lies. But if you actually study Christian apologetics, study the history if the Bible, and seek Truth, and God, you will find it. Jesus said, "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you". But if your heart is to disprove Christianity, that will take you on a different path, one that will lead to death, bitterness, disillusionment, etc. You can post all sorts of nonsense, and come up with all the so-called secret knowledge of Gnostics, but my experience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit--who teaches us, loves us, fills us with peace and joy that are indescribable--these are not things I can "prove", only testify that they are indeed real.
I came to a point several years ago in which I decided to stand on faith on the Word of God as written. If it is wrong, for some reason unbeknownst to me, then I can still stand before God on Judgement Day and be judged by what I believed was God's Word. I have lived an incredibly blessed life, filled with joy from the Lord, so I know what the Bible says is Truth. You can choose to believe other things--that is your right. But understand that there will be a Judgement Day and you need to have believed in and accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. May you find him and be saved.
If you’re getting theology from 4ch you’re beyond gullible. Once people are convinced to believe in nothing they’ll believe in anything. I’m skeptical by nature, especially when somebody shady says “Buddy, you been bamboozled, lemme setcha straight.”
I've actually come full circle on this stuff. I obsessively deep dived for so many years trying to connect the puzzle pieces until it started to unravel. I used to be convinced but now I don't believe any of it. I know the source material for some of this. The messiah mission that mary and john the baptist's mother were part of came from the edgar cayce readings. He had a lot to say about this. They were like a cult that were determined to bring the messiah and raised jesus to be so. This all comes from him and you can read about it in one of his books. Yahweh being described like a dragon is kinda true. It comes from an older Jewish text, forgot the name of it. There is a pretty weird back story about it all. Even in the bible there's still references to the fire. Jesus not dying but escaping to india is an old tale that came from someone's book. I followed that rabbit hole until I found where it came from, so disappointing. Yes there is a place in india where they claim he is buried and that he lived to an old age. Funny thing is, this exact mythical story exists in japan too. Jesus was very popular, most famous person on earth, and other cultures have learned how to capitalize on it. Anyhow, you know how it goes, people take a little of this, and a little of that, and creatively fill in some blank spaces, and then an irresistible mystery is born, one that can hold your attention for decades, until you finally reach the end of the rabbit hole to realize it only pulled you off the path this whole time. Whatever really happened in the past has been erased from time. We will never know the truth. And anyone who claims to know the truth has either been fooled himself, or is lying on purpose.
Then there really is only one path to follow, that of the light.
There is no lie in nature.
Cant read this on phones
Had to turn mine horizontal lol
My understanding is that a lot of the Qumran scrolls have not been seen by the public and kept under wraps.
To my understanding some of the Qumran papyii are not accessible to the public, so not all are available.......
You are exactly right!!!! Only those that conform to modern politically correct Biblical knowledge are released to the public. Many of these scrolls have yet to be translated. I have a book in my library that I bought decades ago published in 1991, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception which covers many issues as to why the scrolls are being slow walked in their translation and why some are being held from the public. Its true that some of these scrolls are so disintegrated that they have to piece them all together like a puzzle then translate them, which takes a lot of time. Funny thing however, is that they have had a difficult time deciphering the so-called Copper Scroll because it is written in true ancient Hebrew which was lost after the Babylonian captivity and none of the scholars that control the scrolls today can read ancient Hebrew. I only know of two historians that can read ancient Hebrew and they have been maligned by the academe to shut them up. They did cut the Copper Scroll up in pieces with a diamond saw instead of unrolling it because they said is was too fragile, but I have yet to see what the whole text looks like. Photos of it have always only shown some of the text but never the whole thing. When Nehemiah and Ezra returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, Ezra bemoaned that fact that his people no longer understood the old Hebrew language. Ezra had to verbally translate from the books of the prophets and speak in the Chaldee for the congregation to understand. What people call Hebrew today is really only modern Hebrew which is actually Eastern Aramaic or Chaldee and was only introduced by the Babylonian scribes that came with Ezra at Jerusalem. The Babylonian scribes then introduced a new system of writting called quadratic script which they still use today. This script is nowhere near what the true ancient Hebrew looks like. My two cents.
Quite right. As you stated the original Hebrew (paleo-Hebrew) was already lost to antiquity for over a thousand years.
Look up "Hebrew" and even Wikipedia tells us that the written Hebrew of modern times (neo-Hebrew) is not paleo-Hebrew. Paleo-Hebrew is the original writings of the books of the Old Testament (OT).
Modern written Hebrew is based on the work by the Masoretes in 900 AD. Who are the Masoretes? They are Pharisaic Jews (Pharisees), who recreated a new written 'Hebrew' from Afroasiatic language family (Arabic) and Aramaic to successful 'revive' a dead language. Even Wikipedia admits to modern Hebrew as being a revived dead language (Albeit, you might have to use the Wayback Machine to see earlier postings). The original written Hebrew had only consonants and it depended on an oral tradition of learned scholars to know what the words meant. The Masoretes created a new written 'Hebrew' that had vowel points. These are any of a group of auxiliary symbols, as small lines and dots, placed above or below consonant symbols to indicate vowels in a writing system. Arabic uses vowel points. The Masoretes finished translating the New Hebrew version from the Septuagint in the 10th Century AD. The Masoretic Text, as it is called, was accepted as being the basis of all Protestant Bibles. In the same period, it was used as a source, along with later Greek Texts (such as the Miniscules, etc.) as the basis for the Textus Receptus. From the Masoretic Text, the King James Version was transliterated.
The oldest Bible OT there is the Septuagint, which was transliterated from the original paleo-Hebrew into koine Greek in circa 285 BC. As you mention from Ezra's time, the original Hebrew written language was in trouble and it only got worse under the Hellenic influence and was becoming extinct.
According to tradition, it was Ptolemy Philadelphus, who purchased the freedom of Israelites in his territories, arranged for 6 scholars from each of the 12 tribes to translate the first 5 books of the Old Testament from paleo-Hebrew into Greek around 285 BC. By this time a practical knowledge of the Hebrew written language was all but lost.
The original written Hebrew consisted only of consonants and relied on an oral knowledge to decipher the consonant-only words. Think of the English word 'cat' and remove the vowel. It becomes 'ct'. Without the vowel, the word 'ct' could be cat, cot, cut, cute, acute, coat, etc. An individual of knowledge would be required to orally teach others what the word 'ct' was. This is how the priestly class taught and passed on the writings of the bible. The paleo-Hebrew writings were designed for deciphering the bible using scribes trained to it. The written paleo-Hebrew was dependent on an individual trained in understanding it. This is how the Hebrew written language was passed down generation after generation. It was central to understanding the bible.
With the written Hebrew language being greatly eclipsed and dominated by the very popular Greek language, which was the international language of the day, Hebrew was in great peril of being lost forever. Ptolemy gathered together 72 scholars and in a short period of time they completed the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is from Greek pentáteuchos and is the first five books of the Old Testament. The Latin name 'Septuagint' means 70, and was later applied to the translation in circa 1555 AD, for there was approximately 70 translators. This is also the reason why the abbreviation 'LXX' is used for this reason. After the first 5 books were finished, the translators set out to work on the rest of the OT. The exact date this was accomplished is not known, but it is certain the complete OT was finished within 100 years and it is likely it was completed within a few years by the same translators.
Great overview Tewdryg! Its so nice to hear from someone that also knows the truth of things. Its also important to note that it was from the Septuagint that Yashua/Jesus Christ drew His teachings from, and NOT from the Babylonian Talmud, better known as the Tradition of the Elders now known as the religion of JUDAISM which is practiced to this day by modern Jewry. That is why I always cringe when I hear the term Judeo-Christian from ignorant Christians that have no clue as to what they are saying. The term Judeo-Christian is an oxymoron, it is of two opposites. Our Christian Bible is derived from HEBRAISM not Judaism. Hebraic-Christian is an acceptable term. As such, we can also say that the Septuagint is based on HEBRAISM not from Babylonian Judaism. Therefore, Christ only drew His teachings from the Hebraic writings which made the Pharisee serpents squirm. I love the entire chapter of John 8 where Jesus exposes Pharisees as to whom they really are including their seedline. Best wishes.
This is very interesting, but hard to read. Is there a word document or a source to copy into a word document? thanks.
So the annunaki orchestrated all of this and planted Jesus as a reincarnated baby. Yeah ok
😂
I gnome right?!