I think that point needs to be better fleshed out. I got piled on for sugguesting it and tbh I'm not entirely sure either way. There are verses in which Paul seems to allude to the literal, blood-lineage Hebrews (all 12 tribes, not just Judah), still have some special part to play in things. There are other verses though which seem to annul the difference between them and gentiles, as long as both parties believe in Christ.
Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
.
"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think that point needs to be better fleshed out. I got piled on for sugguesting it and tbh I'm not entirely sure either way. There are verses in which Paul seems to allude to the literal, blood-lineage Hebrews (all 12 tribes, not just Judah), still have some special part to play in things. There are other verses though which seem to annul the difference between them and gentiles, as long as both parties believe in Christ.
Study the Abrahamic Covenant. God made an unconditional, eternal covenant with Abraham, and it can not be broken.
Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
.
"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
https://greatawakening.win/p/17txR9tBUG/x/c/4ZDrsmiP5TZ
(that's just one of the replies in our discussion, you'll have to scroll around to find the start)
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Ah, gotcha. That is interesting.
Isn't there a verse somewhere which lays out the requirement they must meet in order to fully possess the promised land?
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
May God bless you.
I would also point out that the context -
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
How do we then consider John 8:34-40?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.