Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
.
"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
I see, you are not the one who is confused there in fact good on you for utilizing scripture and scripture only. The covenant to Abraham's seed was to everyone and is what translated into both the old and new law or covenant.
I've heard it said by a wise old preacher (now in heaven) that the entire bible's theme is: God came back.
By God blessing Abraham's seed he is saying that every nation on Earth (don't forget Ishmael) would have the opportunity to eternal life. This isn't some hidden Indian Jones relic we need to unpack here. And like you so adequately stated To the Jew first and also to the Greek or Jew and Gentile.
Peter meeting with Cornelius in Acts 10 after his vision is proof that God was reaching out to the Gentiles. But it was the Jew first because they were the first nation, the ones under the old law.
Paul in Ephesians 3:1 makes it know. His aim was to preach to the Gentiles.
So the old law was nailed to the cross "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." Hebrews 8:7 because it couldn't save, it couldn't save because no one could keep it and the blood of bulls and goats did not wash sins away like the blood of Jesus does after baptism. Romans 6:1-5.
And this is where it ends. The promise to Abraham's seed is fulfilled in God taking care of His children in the old and the New covenant offering salvation to all who would submit to Him.
I really hope this makes sense you can kick me and ask me to clarify any points I didn't explain too well or if you want more scripture for these things. God bless you!
It makes sense, and is refreshing and succinct. Ty!
By God blessing Abraham's seed he is saying that every nation on Earth (don't forget Ishmael) would have the opportunity to eternal life.
But it was the Jew first because they were the first nation, the ones under the old law.
I'm getting a haze of revelations right now. I say a haze because nothing concrete yet but moreso feels like "the wheels are turning" in my head. I am pondering on the dynamics between the satanic Tower of Babel, which I think is the first nation, or maybe first city, or even perhaps first "human institution" or organization,
and the structure God set up in Israel. Parallels and differences... Tower of Babel definitely triangular power structure under Nimrod. Common man likely not significant. Was Israel structured in such a way, or did it have some sort of checks and balances? Was it delinear to a degree? I wish I knew more about ancient Israel's political and religious systems but I never was too drawn to the weighty sections of scripture which went into that stuff. I found it boring when compared to the rest of scripture.
Sorry for rambling on.
And please whatever you do, don't ask me to go read Leviticus! 😆 (jk, I will if you think it's relevent)
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
No, Abram was put into a deep sleep when the covenant was made to signify that the covenant is fully on God. There is no requirement for Abram or his descendants to do anything.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates
...
Thank you for the prompt. I don't know where I got the idea that they had to obey God or fulfill some requirements to fully possess the promised land.
Even still since Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets it would be counted as such, yes? Then by extension all who believe in Christ are included somehow? Can you help me hone in on what's happening here, my head is starting to spin 😅
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual.
"As above, so below" comes to mind, but I think that's some satanic concept iirc. Idk. I took Jesus' statements in these verses to actually be redefining, or rather properly defining, what God meant in His promise to Abraham, regardless of whether Abraham knew it at the time. One could argue though that this cannot be, by using some of Paul's writings about what advantage hath the Israelite of the flesh etc. Once again I must ask, how are we supposed to even know who's a real, blood-line Israelite anymore? Also, is it feasable that Abraham has had enough blood-line descendents to make the hyperbolic "as numerous as the stars in heaven" make sense? If we consider his "spiritual children", though, it would be a much larger number of descendents..
Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
.
"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
https://greatawakening.win/p/17txR9tBUG/x/c/4ZDrsmiP5TZ
(that's just one of the replies in our discussion, you'll have to scroll around to find the start)
I see, you are not the one who is confused there in fact good on you for utilizing scripture and scripture only. The covenant to Abraham's seed was to everyone and is what translated into both the old and new law or covenant.
I've heard it said by a wise old preacher (now in heaven) that the entire bible's theme is: God came back.
By God blessing Abraham's seed he is saying that every nation on Earth (don't forget Ishmael) would have the opportunity to eternal life. This isn't some hidden Indian Jones relic we need to unpack here. And like you so adequately stated To the Jew first and also to the Greek or Jew and Gentile.
Peter meeting with Cornelius in Acts 10 after his vision is proof that God was reaching out to the Gentiles. But it was the Jew first because they were the first nation, the ones under the old law.
Paul in Ephesians 3:1 makes it know. His aim was to preach to the Gentiles.
So the old law was nailed to the cross "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." Hebrews 8:7 because it couldn't save, it couldn't save because no one could keep it and the blood of bulls and goats did not wash sins away like the blood of Jesus does after baptism. Romans 6:1-5.
And this is where it ends. The promise to Abraham's seed is fulfilled in God taking care of His children in the old and the New covenant offering salvation to all who would submit to Him.
I really hope this makes sense you can kick me and ask me to clarify any points I didn't explain too well or if you want more scripture for these things. God bless you!
It makes sense, and is refreshing and succinct. Ty!
I'm getting a haze of revelations right now. I say a haze because nothing concrete yet but moreso feels like "the wheels are turning" in my head. I am pondering on the dynamics between the satanic Tower of Babel, which I think is the first nation, or maybe first city, or even perhaps first "human institution" or organization,
and the structure God set up in Israel. Parallels and differences... Tower of Babel definitely triangular power structure under Nimrod. Common man likely not significant. Was Israel structured in such a way, or did it have some sort of checks and balances? Was it delinear to a degree? I wish I knew more about ancient Israel's political and religious systems but I never was too drawn to the weighty sections of scripture which went into that stuff. I found it boring when compared to the rest of scripture.
Sorry for rambling on.
And please whatever you do, don't ask me to go read Leviticus! 😆 (jk, I will if you think it's relevent)
Btw found this while looking for something else
https://www.seekbibletruth.org/wp/2016/12/18/which-laws-were-nailed-to-the-cross/
I'll check into this, looks tasty! Thank you fren
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Ah, gotcha. That is interesting.
Isn't there a verse somewhere which lays out the requirement they must meet in order to fully possess the promised land?
No, Abram was put into a deep sleep when the covenant was made to signify that the covenant is fully on God. There is no requirement for Abram or his descendants to do anything.
Gen. 15:12-21
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates
...
Thank you for the prompt. I don't know where I got the idea that they had to obey God or fulfill some requirements to fully possess the promised land.
Even still since Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets it would be counted as such, yes? Then by extension all who believe in Christ are included somehow? Can you help me hone in on what's happening here, my head is starting to spin 😅
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
Did Joshua 21:43-45 Fulfill the Abrahamic Land Covenant?
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
May God bless you.
I would also point out that the context -
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
How do we then consider John 8:34-40?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
"As above, so below" comes to mind, but I think that's some satanic concept iirc. Idk. I took Jesus' statements in these verses to actually be redefining, or rather properly defining, what God meant in His promise to Abraham, regardless of whether Abraham knew it at the time. One could argue though that this cannot be, by using some of Paul's writings about what advantage hath the Israelite of the flesh etc. Once again I must ask, how are we supposed to even know who's a real, blood-line Israelite anymore? Also, is it feasable that Abraham has had enough blood-line descendents to make the hyperbolic "as numerous as the stars in heaven" make sense? If we consider his "spiritual children", though, it would be a much larger number of descendents..