This is why arguments of authority are complete and total nonsense. Yet people use them all the time. Even I do sometimes, and I strive not to with every part of my being. It is a lazy, disingenuous, and completely false argument.
An argument that does not stand on its own has no standing.
I prefer the term "man-made climate change" over simply "climate change". I too agree that climate change is real, but don't believe the man-made variety exists.
^ Fair catch, I, too, believe climate change happens. In fact, if the earth isn't either warming or cooling at any one point, I'd be enormously alarmed.
To be fair, though, I am trying to quite their arguments; part of the illogical nature of those arguments is that they conflate an issue with a very specific agenda/narrative. To them, "climate change" can ONLY mean one thing. Denial of that one thing is "denial of climate change" as a whole; just like being against the covid vaccinations (or now forced vaccinations) is being "anti-vax", despite that many people that are against the covid vaccinations are for other vaccines.
People who work in the medical field are varied in their intelligence and those who research on their own are varied in their intelligence.
A lot of people - on this site, who I've engaged with - have argued absolute insanity with me, i.e, that HIV/AIDS doesn't kill, AZT killed more. Their view and opinion on this is completely based upon anti-medical websites. Their view isn't from experience in a real setting, it's based on confirmation bias and political leanings.
There are doctors I know who are dumber than dirt. They have limited ability to interpret data themselves. Or, alternatively, they have their own motives for confirming their bias, alliance to a scientific belief system or political motivations.
This meme along is sheer hubris. The arrogance of "lol... I can research on google" is the exact same arrogance of "I have a medical degree, you're not allowed to have an opinion". Both sides are wrong, yet they believe they're right.
Just yesterday, I demonstrated in a thread why you can't take one limited study on SARS-1 vaccination outcomes as proof that COVID-19 vaccines = X outcomes.
Yet, people have very firm belief systems. They won't listen because their confirmation bias tells them that any validation is validation. It doesn't have to be qualitive. The same occurs on the left.
Research is great for influencing choice, however, if you're not interpreting the data correctly, is it worthwhile as influencing outcome? If you're researching to confirm a belief, is the outcome of your research qualitive?
Often, neither side answer those questions, ergo, both are as bad as one another.
You have hit on a lot of reasons why I suggest that the argument is all. It stands on its own, regardless of anything else. It can be debated only on its own merits. If additional evidence or logic suggests an error in an argument, then only a rebuttal that addresses the evidence or logic directly is worthy of admission into the joint effort of divining truth.
Along with that is the requirement for retaining an open mind (in the investigation into truth). You touched on that as well, but you also suggested (and forgive me if I am reading too much into what you said) that the HIV/AIDS/AZT thing MUST be wrong ("absolute insanity"). I am not convinced it is absolutely wrong.
Do I think it is right? No. Have I seen good scientific evidence to support it? No. But to be fair I have not looked into it very deeply. I have seen some small pieces of evidence that are compelling, even if insufficient. I do think there is a good chance it was a manufactured virus, and some of the actors involved have gained a great deal from it not being cured. So there is circumstantial evidence, and possible motivations of known bad actors. I think it warrants a deeper look, despite having seen no good scientific evidence (again, I haven't really looked).
I am saying this because the retaining an open mind, even in the face of what is apparently "impossible" is essential. From my own perspective, when people talk about the "spike protein shedding" thing I allow myself to retain an open mind. Its a transmembrane protein. The idea of a TM protein somehow getting out of the membrane and going off into the ether and then entering another person to find its way to an ACE-2 protein to do its damage is so far beyond the ludicrous It makes me apoplectic. I still try to listen to the argument though. In all my years in biology the only things I can say I know for certain are, it's incredibly complicated, and I know almost nothing about it. Thus keeping an open mind is the only way to respond appropriately, and only a complete argument that addresses the points can be a proper response.
The argument is all.
I think we agree across the board or near enough. I am either putting a finer point on it, or babbling. Take your pick. :)
I consider my degrees to be incredibly important. I wouldn't change what I learned in the process of getting them for anything. With respect to arguments, they have given me both the requisite knowledge to create sound arguments and the skills to formulate those arguments (both are part of the training in science). They also open doors in society, so they are far from useless.
Of course not all degrees are created equal, and hopefully someday in the not too distant future degrees will become much less important, even in science. They almost certainly do more harm than good.
In our society we are much more likely to listen to someone who has the degrees than someone who doesn't. And yet, the argument is all that matters. This covid thing has brought out so many doctors that are just shy of clueless on both biology and science speaking as "experts" (on both sides of the narrative) and so many people believe them without questioning. Which side listens to which wrong doctors depends only on which fears they start with. On both sides they are really just looking for justification for their fears.
On the one side people believe covid is the worst thing ever, masks work and vaccines are God's gift, on the other side people believe transmembrane proteins can "shed", mRNA can make people into GMO's, and a third of the world is going to die in December. All of those have zero evidence to support, and substantial evidence against, and yet many people believe them no matter what evidence you present.
And then the crazy happens. You present your argument, and then they ask for your credentials!!!
My degree is in engineering and I do agree I did learn some problem solving tools and approaches. But even so, it was nothing I couldn't have learned from 2 weeks on the job of a construction site and reading a couple books for free. And I make 4x my old engineer salary running an unrelated business I started with a friend who didnt go to college. So it's been a huge waste of life for me personally.
Obviously YMMV...
Also, couldnt agree more about degrees hopefully becoming less important. We target smart kids out of high school. 4 years of on job experience is infinitely more valuable than a piece of paper to us. So I'm trying to do my part in that.
You guys are still wrong, because you mistakenly think words/talk matters. I have had much better luck adapting the scientific method to almost everything in life... especially in my profession.
I automatically assume everything is false (or a lie) until PROVEN to be true by facts, results, tests, measurements, etc. Moreover, the proof must itself be verifiable in some way.
Following this methodology cuts through so much crap it's not even funny. The bottom line is that arguments are worthless noise. Only results matter, and those results must be verifiable (or reproducible in science).
It is ironic that almost all "science" these days is impossible to reproduce... it attempts to use science to add a veneer of credibility to political advocacy. But that is another story...
That can be true, but medicine is a bit more complex than that. Outcomes have so many variables that you have to be mindful of. The disregard for quality has lead us to have GP's who only know how to type things into a computer and get an answer.
We lowered our standards and saw it as less important, thus we have reduced the capacity of the field : patient ratio drastically (i.e many useless doctors, only some good/excellent doctors : many patients with modern maladies).
Dismissiveness of that "piece of paper" has lead us to our current situation.
I got into a debate on FB with some pro-mask, pro-lockdown person and they responded to my argument by dismissively stating that "It's funny that you think you're smarter than science".
These are the people that are running this shitshow world we're in.
Science is about discovery. Scientific method is coming to a theory based on studies that can be overthrown at any point when better studies are discovered. The fact that these people think science is set in stone is insane to me.
The same can apply to the opposite side too.
Take for example, that stupid Fauci meme that floats around the internet, where it claims AZT was a "failed chemo drug" ergo, it killed more people than people who died from AIDS.
You can argue with "internet researchers" who have been fed information without qualitive data, and their belief systems are so firm that they are right, that the science is settled to them.
That's where the danger lies. It's the opposite edge to the same sword.
Bottom line is as a person you have to be always open to changing your ideas if proper evidence is presented. To avoid falling into cognitive dissonance. Its hard to do because so often our ideologies become part of who we are without realizing it. We become defensive when our ideas are challenged as if new suggestions are against us personally. My take at least.
Whats hard now is all the disinformation. We all have to be careful not to fall into that trap.
I had a co-worker tell me he just does what the Doctor's say no matter what. No amount of information will pursuade him. If a Dr. tells him to do it then that's good enough for him. Never mind that they are just humans with their own motivations. Never mind that there are Doctors in prison. Nevermind that there are Doctors who get sued for malpractice every single day. Nevermind that there are Doctors throughout history that committed horrendous human atrocities. If it's a Doctor he's good to go.
I think it would be better without a pic of some guy drinking and smoking saying it. Dude is supposed to be so good at research and missed the deleterious effects those have on his health? Yeah, expert.
How about: find a doc you trust, and don't trust people (or their identity-groups) with hidden incentives. At all. Viz: if it's free, YOU are the product.
We reasonable physicians exist, but you must meet us in person. We don't do Faux Xi. BTW, I am my patients' expert consultant; and the flipside of that is I cannot care for any one of them, more that THEY care for them.
So research. Present. Recieve and evaluate data; digest. Be human. If you are capable? be healthy. And don't go in for "systemic [racism/pharma/BS]"; it's not the system, it's the LEFTISM.
Your medical degree also included your indoctrination regarding the accuracy of your knowledge and your rejection of other, alternative therapies. In short, I consider your knowledge with a strong degree of skepticism. I'll use it when it benefits me, but I'll also not hesitate to question it when it runs counter to my own research.
No. Add yourself to the long list of people that do not understand the Dunning-Kruger effect.
In their study, they found that people that knew very little about a field of study would not know how much they did not know, and therefore overestimate their level of knowledge in that field. In contrast, the more people learned about a field of study, the more they realized how vast it was, and how little they knew in comparison, and therefore rated their own level of knowledge lower than the clueless noobs overestimation of their knowledge. A paradox of sorts.
This meme illustrates the concept of "argument from authority", suggesting that only experts can possibly understand anything at all about their field of study. They are basically saying "shut up and obey the experts". That is not the same as Dunning-Kruger.
The bottom half of the meme suggests to me...and I'm not asking that you or anyone else agree...a guy who is suddenly an expert after doing some google research.
If you don't see it that way, that's perfectly fine.
This is why arguments of authority are complete and total nonsense. Yet people use them all the time. Even I do sometimes, and I strive not to with every part of my being. It is a lazy, disingenuous, and completely false argument.
An argument that does not stand on its own has no standing.
Literal logical fallacy (improper appeal to authority), probably among the top three, alongside ad homenim and ad populum.
For those who don't know;
*the Climate Change agenda/narrative, not literal climate change
edit: added star to clarify as per valid concern from MyDaughtersDaddy
I prefer the term "man-made climate change" over simply "climate change". I too agree that climate change is real, but don't believe the man-made variety exists.
^ Fair catch, I, too, believe climate change happens. In fact, if the earth isn't either warming or cooling at any one point, I'd be enormously alarmed.
To be fair, though, I am trying to quite their arguments; part of the illogical nature of those arguments is that they conflate an issue with a very specific agenda/narrative. To them, "climate change" can ONLY mean one thing. Denial of that one thing is "denial of climate change" as a whole; just like being against the covid vaccinations (or now forced vaccinations) is being "anti-vax", despite that many people that are against the covid vaccinations are for other vaccines.
Either way, I will edit it to reflect this!
Right. Remember when "Only women can have an opinion on abortion" was a thing?
The issue is more nuanced than that, however.
People who work in the medical field are varied in their intelligence and those who research on their own are varied in their intelligence.
A lot of people - on this site, who I've engaged with - have argued absolute insanity with me, i.e, that HIV/AIDS doesn't kill, AZT killed more. Their view and opinion on this is completely based upon anti-medical websites. Their view isn't from experience in a real setting, it's based on confirmation bias and political leanings.
There are doctors I know who are dumber than dirt. They have limited ability to interpret data themselves. Or, alternatively, they have their own motives for confirming their bias, alliance to a scientific belief system or political motivations.
This meme along is sheer hubris. The arrogance of "lol... I can research on google" is the exact same arrogance of "I have a medical degree, you're not allowed to have an opinion". Both sides are wrong, yet they believe they're right.
Just yesterday, I demonstrated in a thread why you can't take one limited study on SARS-1 vaccination outcomes as proof that COVID-19 vaccines = X outcomes. Yet, people have very firm belief systems. They won't listen because their confirmation bias tells them that any validation is validation. It doesn't have to be qualitive. The same occurs on the left.
Research is great for influencing choice, however, if you're not interpreting the data correctly, is it worthwhile as influencing outcome? If you're researching to confirm a belief, is the outcome of your research qualitive?
Often, neither side answer those questions, ergo, both are as bad as one another.
You have hit on a lot of reasons why I suggest that the argument is all. It stands on its own, regardless of anything else. It can be debated only on its own merits. If additional evidence or logic suggests an error in an argument, then only a rebuttal that addresses the evidence or logic directly is worthy of admission into the joint effort of divining truth.
Along with that is the requirement for retaining an open mind (in the investigation into truth). You touched on that as well, but you also suggested (and forgive me if I am reading too much into what you said) that the HIV/AIDS/AZT thing MUST be wrong ("absolute insanity"). I am not convinced it is absolutely wrong.
Do I think it is right? No. Have I seen good scientific evidence to support it? No. But to be fair I have not looked into it very deeply. I have seen some small pieces of evidence that are compelling, even if insufficient. I do think there is a good chance it was a manufactured virus, and some of the actors involved have gained a great deal from it not being cured. So there is circumstantial evidence, and possible motivations of known bad actors. I think it warrants a deeper look, despite having seen no good scientific evidence (again, I haven't really looked).
I am saying this because the retaining an open mind, even in the face of what is apparently "impossible" is essential. From my own perspective, when people talk about the "spike protein shedding" thing I allow myself to retain an open mind. Its a transmembrane protein. The idea of a TM protein somehow getting out of the membrane and going off into the ether and then entering another person to find its way to an ACE-2 protein to do its damage is so far beyond the ludicrous It makes me apoplectic. I still try to listen to the argument though. In all my years in biology the only things I can say I know for certain are, it's incredibly complicated, and I know almost nothing about it. Thus keeping an open mind is the only way to respond appropriately, and only a complete argument that addresses the points can be a proper response.
The argument is all.
I think we agree across the board or near enough. I am either putting a finer point on it, or babbling. Take your pick. :)
Is this Actually a doug Stanhope Quote? If So, Great meme...
If it's just a random persons quote, and they chose doug stanhope, Congrats, You're a retard.
Um don’t people use famous people for memes all the time? What am I missing, here.
Hey fren use this next time. I bust people all the time for the arguments of authority.
"Asia Carrera (pornstar) has a IQ of 157-160 and is a member of MENSA, are you going to listen to her about Covid?"
"Shy Love (another pornstar) has a Masters! You should listen to her too!"
A degree means you memorized certain things that were deemed important by some random people.
I'm embarrassed I paid money to do that. Worthless piece of paper.
I consider my degrees to be incredibly important. I wouldn't change what I learned in the process of getting them for anything. With respect to arguments, they have given me both the requisite knowledge to create sound arguments and the skills to formulate those arguments (both are part of the training in science). They also open doors in society, so they are far from useless.
Of course not all degrees are created equal, and hopefully someday in the not too distant future degrees will become much less important, even in science. They almost certainly do more harm than good.
In our society we are much more likely to listen to someone who has the degrees than someone who doesn't. And yet, the argument is all that matters. This covid thing has brought out so many doctors that are just shy of clueless on both biology and science speaking as "experts" (on both sides of the narrative) and so many people believe them without questioning. Which side listens to which wrong doctors depends only on which fears they start with. On both sides they are really just looking for justification for their fears.
On the one side people believe covid is the worst thing ever, masks work and vaccines are God's gift, on the other side people believe transmembrane proteins can "shed", mRNA can make people into GMO's, and a third of the world is going to die in December. All of those have zero evidence to support, and substantial evidence against, and yet many people believe them no matter what evidence you present.
And then the crazy happens. You present your argument, and then they ask for your credentials!!!
Both sides.
My degree is in engineering and I do agree I did learn some problem solving tools and approaches. But even so, it was nothing I couldn't have learned from 2 weeks on the job of a construction site and reading a couple books for free. And I make 4x my old engineer salary running an unrelated business I started with a friend who didnt go to college. So it's been a huge waste of life for me personally.
Obviously YMMV...
Also, couldnt agree more about degrees hopefully becoming less important. We target smart kids out of high school. 4 years of on job experience is infinitely more valuable than a piece of paper to us. So I'm trying to do my part in that.
You guys are still wrong, because you mistakenly think words/talk matters. I have had much better luck adapting the scientific method to almost everything in life... especially in my profession.
I automatically assume everything is false (or a lie) until PROVEN to be true by facts, results, tests, measurements, etc. Moreover, the proof must itself be verifiable in some way.
Following this methodology cuts through so much crap it's not even funny. The bottom line is that arguments are worthless noise. Only results matter, and those results must be verifiable (or reproducible in science).
It is ironic that almost all "science" these days is impossible to reproduce... it attempts to use science to add a veneer of credibility to political advocacy. But that is another story...
That can be true, but medicine is a bit more complex than that. Outcomes have so many variables that you have to be mindful of. The disregard for quality has lead us to have GP's who only know how to type things into a computer and get an answer.
We lowered our standards and saw it as less important, thus we have reduced the capacity of the field : patient ratio drastically (i.e many useless doctors, only some good/excellent doctors : many patients with modern maladies).
Dismissiveness of that "piece of paper" has lead us to our current situation.
I got into a debate on FB with some pro-mask, pro-lockdown person and they responded to my argument by dismissively stating that "It's funny that you think you're smarter than science".
These are the people that are running this shitshow world we're in.
Who's science? ...is the question.
Science, at one point or another, said some very wrong things.
Science is about discovery. Scientific method is coming to a theory based on studies that can be overthrown at any point when better studies are discovered. The fact that these people think science is set in stone is insane to me.
This!!
A) ignorant cult member B) a grifter C) psy-op agent
I'll go with...
D) All of the above
And science depends on who is funding it......who stands to gain.
The same can apply to the opposite side too. Take for example, that stupid Fauci meme that floats around the internet, where it claims AZT was a "failed chemo drug" ergo, it killed more people than people who died from AIDS.
You can argue with "internet researchers" who have been fed information without qualitive data, and their belief systems are so firm that they are right, that the science is settled to them.
That's where the danger lies. It's the opposite edge to the same sword.
Bottom line is as a person you have to be always open to changing your ideas if proper evidence is presented. To avoid falling into cognitive dissonance. Its hard to do because so often our ideologies become part of who we are without realizing it. We become defensive when our ideas are challenged as if new suggestions are against us personally. My take at least.
Whats hard now is all the disinformation. We all have to be careful not to fall into that trap.
People get mad when I presented them some truths.
Covid vax has side effects.
Chinese invented gunpowder (some people got angry over this, as if China doesn't deserve any credit because the current government is Communist).
Soy used by Asian countries is not the same as the soy used here. See video by Eillot Hulse.
I could have used your help in responding. Instead, I walked away in disbelief.
No amount of Reason would've helped. Walking away was the best response.
This meme is the overton window shifting. The grifters are in trouble.
Doctors hate me because I always walk in with so much information that they usually cant keep up. Im not stupid, sorry.
MDs are doing a really great job at taking care of the health of Americans . . . aren't they?
Or, let's see, do they work for Big Pharma?
Is Big Agribusiness part of the deal?
Is it a circular thing that also involves academia where they get their degrees?
Hmm, where do the bankers fit in?
What about Big Tech and the politicians?
Actually think I'll do some research and take care of myself.
doctorates in "feminine studies" don't count, buddy.
I had a co-worker tell me he just does what the Doctor's say no matter what. No amount of information will pursuade him. If a Dr. tells him to do it then that's good enough for him. Never mind that they are just humans with their own motivations. Never mind that there are Doctors in prison. Nevermind that there are Doctors who get sued for malpractice every single day. Nevermind that there are Doctors throughout history that committed horrendous human atrocities. If it's a Doctor he's good to go.
I think it would be better without a pic of some guy drinking and smoking saying it. Dude is supposed to be so good at research and missed the deleterious effects those have on his health? Yeah, expert.
To the creator, BRAVO! Fabulous meme thanks for sharing.
How about: find a doc you trust, and don't trust people (or their identity-groups) with hidden incentives. At all. Viz: if it's free, YOU are the product.
We reasonable physicians exist, but you must meet us in person. We don't do Faux Xi. BTW, I am my patients' expert consultant; and the flipside of that is I cannot care for any one of them, more that THEY care for them.
So research. Present. Recieve and evaluate data; digest. Be human. If you are capable? be healthy. And don't go in for "systemic [racism/pharma/BS]"; it's not the system, it's the LEFTISM.
n i c e
The only people allowed to comment on anything at all are the experts in that particular field. Report to Room 101 for adjustment.
off the mark. Doctors KNOW that masks don't stop viruses and "social distancing" is stupid. They were silent for a year due to political fear.
Their going along with the jabs, well, that's due to indoctrination in medicine school and bribes from pharma like the meme says.
Money. That's what doctors are after. Unless you are a surgeon you don't have much to offer.
Your medical degree also included your indoctrination regarding the accuracy of your knowledge and your rejection of other, alternative therapies. In short, I consider your knowledge with a strong degree of skepticism. I'll use it when it benefits me, but I'll also not hesitate to question it when it runs counter to my own research.
WTF I love cheesy-looking, cigarette-puffing used car salesmen now
knowledge is knowledge....truth is truth...it belongs to no one.
Is that a Smith & Kearns?
To be fair, the guy in the lower box is the most common origin of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
No. Add yourself to the long list of people that do not understand the Dunning-Kruger effect.
In their study, they found that people that knew very little about a field of study would not know how much they did not know, and therefore overestimate their level of knowledge in that field. In contrast, the more people learned about a field of study, the more they realized how vast it was, and how little they knew in comparison, and therefore rated their own level of knowledge lower than the clueless noobs overestimation of their knowledge. A paradox of sorts.
This meme illustrates the concept of "argument from authority", suggesting that only experts can possibly understand anything at all about their field of study. They are basically saying "shut up and obey the experts". That is not the same as Dunning-Kruger.
The bottom half of the meme suggests to me...and I'm not asking that you or anyone else agree...a guy who is suddenly an expert after doing some google research.
If you don't see it that way, that's perfectly fine.