They lost me at "revenue neutral." This beast needs to be starved to death. If the government only did the things allowed in the Constitution, we could all be paying 1%-2% flat tax and that would be more than enough. The income tax is unconstitutional and more Americans are figuring this out. The mafia knows this and is trying to getting out ahead of it to keep their money stream coming in. Why should we keep funding all their outrageous B.S. and money laundering schemes? 23.5% is insane and it will go up from there, just like the income tax did. And, individual states will still charge sales and income tax.
Also, when has the government EVER done anything for our benefit. They do nothing but lie, cheat, steal, mislead, obfuscate, manipulate and lie some more. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Remember, these are the people that have been trying to kill us all for the last three years.
You tell them. Plus, 23% of gross is actually 30% over net, that is compared to other sales taxes it's a 30% rate. We started a new country to avoid paying a 3% tax and we can do it again. The feds can survive fine on direct taxes, duties, imposts and excises without inventing new ways to define these words that will be challenged in court and upheld grossly by the Supremes. See also my analysis.
Flat Rate 23.5% sales tax instead of Federal, State, Local and Payroll Taxes.
For most people its a huge drop from ~50% - saving more than half what they pay in tax.
BUT, thats very simplistic. The gains are incredibly higher. Let me explain:
You will be paying taxes only on what you spend, when you spend it.
Lets say you earn 100K, pay 50K in taxes, spend 25K and put 25K in savings.
With the new system, you earn 100K, spend 25K + 5.8K in fair tax = 30.8K in tax and you can now put 69.2K into savings.
You savings has essentially almost tripled in this example!
On top of that, your investments - by virtue of there being no taxes unless you spend money, can grow in the same way Hedge Funds and Real Estate moguls grow their money by taking various tax breaks.
There are people like me, my daughter, and grandaughter who this could help. While we are doing ok we get some assistance, Liheap in winter because ND is damn cold and propane is damn high lol, and Wic and my daughter gets help with insurance for my grandaughter, otherwise we both get our insurance through our employers.
So we are in that middle range where you make enough to live but a little boost now and then can help. I get a small refund every year but I certainly pay income tax and medicare, and social security as well as state income taxes.
Property tax also needs to be abolished. Taxed yearly for the right to own land. Inheritance taxes. Same. Your family paid tax on said money then you pay tax when they die and give it to you. So wrong.
Inheritance taxes are indeed evil and we can thank Clinton for them.
Property taxes are mixed as they are both Constitutional and of great pedigree. Property taxes fund the state, not the fed, so they support states' rights. However, some states do fine without much of them. So I will join with reducers in property taxes but they are not fighting the real fight.
Bubble, don't make this a board where we must get out our weapons to prove the UNFairTax is worse than the beast we now have. I've always respected you, but not today: I cannot accept people saying we should continue to fund the government at current levels but with them taking control over the revenue stream; the high-pressure sales talk aggravates the offense. It would be a pity to have anons fight over the political question of which tax. It diverts resources from our needing to restructure our entire lives around the risk of this hell actually dropping upon us from the smiling McCarthy's clutches.
You're relying on statisticians delivering talking points. That's always wrong.
What idiots are making 100K and paying 50K instead of paying an accountant to structure their affairs to pay much less? These idiots might be swayed to the plan rather than putting their money to work. They won't stay at 100K annually for long with that attitude.
All employers will keep the 7.65% they pay on payroll rather than giving it to the employees from whom it was stolen. They will be quiet about this bribe rather than admit the money was taken out of the payroll loop before the employee saw it all along. If you say this hidden tax is another reason for national sales tax, no, it's another reason for abolishing income tax and replacing it with nothing.
Now that's off the cuff. If this keeps up I will get into details and explain why Ron Paul has been fighting these soul-thieves all his life.
You're relying on statisticians delivering talking points
Where are you getting this? Everything I say is my own opinions based on my own analysis.
What idiots are making 100K and paying 50K instead ?
Tons of people do this, almost any salaried professional. Numbers are just rough amounts, and I am sure they can save a bit with deductions etc, but salaried people dont have a lot of leeway.
All employers will keep the 7.65% they pay on payroll rather than giving it to the employees from whom it was stolen
Thats fantastic. Other employers can then steal the employees at no cost! Free market at work.
The point is, abolishing unconstitutional IRS and abolishing constitutional Income Tax are gonna be a huge huge start in our fight to put an "end to the endless".
There are many arguments you can make regarding sales tax, but not that "its unconstitutional", So it already puts this into a different league.
And dont get me wrong, this may be a huge start, but I will wait for them to follow through with this to limit the debt ceiling, and start lowering it, after collapsing the Fed, and exposing the Magic Money scam to the people.
Bubble, don't make this a board where we must get out our weapons to prove the UNFairTax is worse than the beast we now have
And in this board, we always have to use our weapons to uncover the truth. So, I encourage you to use your weapons to prove what I said is wrong.
Just remember - the concept of taxing income is unconstitutional, but not the concept of taxing commerce. If you dont like the concept of any taxes - thats an entirely different discussion and you should start a whole new thread on it.
That's my whole point. Revenue-neutral is not my goal, it's my servant government's evil self-serving life-destroying goal. Destroying the IRS should be done whether or not we decide to sell ourselves and our posterity down the river a second time. But if we do the latter, we frogs are the ones responsible and not our great-grandparents who were killed by Aldrich and Rockefeller. Later.
This is the reason why this first step is a huge step. Our job is to spread the word on the normie-sphere that they are only getting rid whats unconstitutional.
Very likely this time around, but this is not the last time this proposal will be made. As the political elite are removed the proposal will at some point in the not to distant future pass all hurdles.
And those that oppose it this time around will only hasten their removal from the process.
It has been a while since I read the Fair Tax proposal, but one of the things that intrigued me was the qualification requirement for the rebate paid to everyone to compensate for taxes paid on a base level of necessities. To get this rebate, a person must have a valid Social Security account number. This mean that the millions of illegals working as well as not working will not receive this rebate but will still have to pay the tax on all items purchesed. Also, they will no longer qualify for the Earned Income Tax Rebate for their children in and out of the country. It would be much harder for them to undercut the wage level for working citizens.
I realize this proposal has very little chance of becomming law because so many people benefit from the system as it is, even though they pretend to oppose it. The debate almost always boils down to why there should be no taxes rather than what type of tax is best. Like it or not, there is going to be some system of tax and it is not going to be considered equitable by those who have to pay it.
From my standpoint, the most attractive aspect of this proposal is that I would have the opportunity to control my level of tax by controlling my spending. I believe it was Senator Phil Gramm of Texas who remarked about our tendency to reward those things we oppose and punish those thing we support. He was talking about giving tax breaks for interest on debt and imposing taxes for interest on savings. In many ways this proposal changes that equation.
Expect to have more invasive tracking of your expenditures. Sounds like a way to phase out cash. It’s a given that people will go underground and local. EBay and Marketplace are already poised to get into your business.
When people can save almost 25% by buying "off the books" you can bet that tax-avoidance of that sort will be VERY common, and barter will also get a boost. Anything to avoid paying that 23.5% tax on everything you buy.
The good news is that by putting the tax rate right in people's faces all the time, citizen pressure to shrink government will finally start gaining some steam.
People haven’t liked it here? I don’t know how any normal person or small business wouldn’t be super happy with that tax plan. It’s the most researched and vetted plan out there and has been for years. It requires changing a few laws and adding an amendment which is hard.
I don't like it because everything is a bait and switch. The already high 23.5% rate will increase over time. The prebate will decrease. That's just how it works. All the happy talk about having more control is just that - happy talk. The tax applies to essentials like food and gas. This gives the government more control over how much we pay for those essentials. You know, the same government that is orchestrating food and energy shortages. If the rate goes up, retailers will have no choice but to charge it. We need food and gas and will have no choice but to pay it.
At least now, we can find alternatives to paying income taxes with the underground economy, filing as exempt or not filing at all. The government doesn't control that. I like it that way.
Actually the fair tax makes it so everyone is taxed the same and it’s based on what you buy. No more IRS, no more filing taxes, no more taxation multiple times on the same thing. It’s the fair tax because it is the same for everyone, and it’s on goods so the stores don’t have to charge more for their goods they charge the price and the tax gets tacked on at the end… I don’t think you understand the point of the fair tax, it’s to take it out of the hands of the government.
I might agree with you if essentials like food and energy were exempt. I don't see how this is taken out of the hands of the government. They set the tax rate and the "prebate" amount and income levels. That's a huge amount of control. Once this is in place, they can raise the tax to whatever they want. How much control do we have at that point, especially with things like food and gas? None, because we need those things to live.
I understand that more people will be paying, thus making that aspect of it more fair. And I think it's a great idea to get rid of the IRS and the complicated tax code. However, 23.5% is absolutely outrageous. And it will only go up from there. I think you're underestimating and glossing over the amount of control the government still has.
Also, states charge sales tax and income tax. That has to be factored in. Some states already charge tax on food and it's different in every state. That has to be considered in how much people pay.
Further, why is this "revenue neutral?" Ninety percent of the government is unconstitutional bloat. The senseless wars, the needless busy-body bureaucrat class, weaponized agencies, surveillance apparatus, research on defecating habits of Chinese LGBTQ salamanders and every other money laundering scheme are all baked into that 23.5% rate. It's a bamboozle.
Change it to 2% and they're never allowed to raise it and they've got a deal. Make them live within their means for a change. If I'm misstating something, please correct me.
I think you should go read the fair tax proposal again you are stating things that are covered in it. Your what if’s are covered. About 15 years ago I studied it and was an advocate of it for a while, then moved on due to no traction by government officials because it took their financing away. Their ability to manipulate and redirect funds goes away. It has been years since I delved into it, but if you read it it will answer these questions you have. It is the best plan out there. And FYI you pay about 50% taxes now you just don’t realize it.
I did go back and read it more carefully. I will concede I was not giving the prebate the credence it deserves and I was underestimating the potential benefits to businesses and thus, society at large, by eliminating the burden the IRS and tax code impose on them. My default is to not trust anything Congress does as all trust was broken a long time ago. However, after reading through the plan more thoroughly, I am somewhat more optimistic about it. I will keep an open mind. Thank you for your feedback.
I agree with you! Another reason that I like the FairTax is that it has been around for a long time and written by John Linder and Neal Boortz. Neal Boortz was a conservative talk radio host and hence spent years covering it on his show. It was not concocted by a bunch of unqualified politicians.
I hope that people will go back and listen to Neal Boortz shows where he covered it, it is very eye opening and the only way forward to curb the money laundering the government does. It controls the government more than the people for sure.
They lost me at "revenue neutral." This beast needs to be starved to death. If the government only did the things allowed in the Constitution, we could all be paying 1%-2% flat tax and that would be more than enough. The income tax is unconstitutional and more Americans are figuring this out. The mafia knows this and is trying to getting out ahead of it to keep their money stream coming in. Why should we keep funding all their outrageous B.S. and money laundering schemes? 23.5% is insane and it will go up from there, just like the income tax did. And, individual states will still charge sales and income tax.
Also, when has the government EVER done anything for our benefit. They do nothing but lie, cheat, steal, mislead, obfuscate, manipulate and lie some more. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Remember, these are the people that have been trying to kill us all for the last three years.
You tell them. Plus, 23% of gross is actually 30% over net, that is compared to other sales taxes it's a 30% rate. We started a new country to avoid paying a 3% tax and we can do it again. The feds can survive fine on direct taxes, duties, imposts and excises without inventing new ways to define these words that will be challenged in court and upheld grossly by the Supremes. See also my analysis.
Should go without saying that such tactics probably aren't very effective here, hence u/Trfsrfr's response to your attempted dunk.
"I like to let people know that they're slow to noticing"... 🤔🤔
Why would someone even say such a thing? Your sarcasm meter might be pegged too hard right now.
I don’t care about any of that.
For most people its a huge drop from ~50% - saving more than half what they pay in tax.
BUT, thats very simplistic. The gains are incredibly higher. Let me explain:
You will be paying taxes only on what you spend, when you spend it.
Lets say you earn 100K, pay 50K in taxes, spend 25K and put 25K in savings.
With the new system, you earn 100K, spend 25K + 5.8K in fair tax = 30.8K in tax and you can now put 69.2K into savings.
You savings has essentially almost tripled in this example!
On top of that, your investments - by virtue of there being no taxes unless you spend money, can grow in the same way Hedge Funds and Real Estate moguls grow their money by taking various tax breaks.
In theory....but 52% live off the government and pay 0 in taxes.
It will all change, I am hopeful
There are people like me, my daughter, and grandaughter who this could help. While we are doing ok we get some assistance, Liheap in winter because ND is damn cold and propane is damn high lol, and Wic and my daughter gets help with insurance for my grandaughter, otherwise we both get our insurance through our employers.
So we are in that middle range where you make enough to live but a little boost now and then can help. I get a small refund every year but I certainly pay income tax and medicare, and social security as well as state income taxes.
Property tax also needs to be abolished. Taxed yearly for the right to own land. Inheritance taxes. Same. Your family paid tax on said money then you pay tax when they die and give it to you. So wrong.
Agreed on all counts there.
Inheritance taxes are indeed evil and we can thank Clinton for them.
Property taxes are mixed as they are both Constitutional and of great pedigree. Property taxes fund the state, not the fed, so they support states' rights. However, some states do fine without much of them. So I will join with reducers in property taxes but they are not fighting the real fight.
But OP tax, doubly evil.
And a no tax until you pass fed poverty rate spending. It’s great. Except the rate is very high.
Bubble, don't make this a board where we must get out our weapons to prove the UNFairTax is worse than the beast we now have. I've always respected you, but not today: I cannot accept people saying we should continue to fund the government at current levels but with them taking control over the revenue stream; the high-pressure sales talk aggravates the offense. It would be a pity to have anons fight over the political question of which tax. It diverts resources from our needing to restructure our entire lives around the risk of this hell actually dropping upon us from the smiling McCarthy's clutches.
Tell me which part of my analysis is wrong.
You're relying on statisticians delivering talking points. That's always wrong.
What idiots are making 100K and paying 50K instead of paying an accountant to structure their affairs to pay much less? These idiots might be swayed to the plan rather than putting their money to work. They won't stay at 100K annually for long with that attitude.
All employers will keep the 7.65% they pay on payroll rather than giving it to the employees from whom it was stolen. They will be quiet about this bribe rather than admit the money was taken out of the payroll loop before the employee saw it all along. If you say this hidden tax is another reason for national sales tax, no, it's another reason for abolishing income tax and replacing it with nothing.
Now that's off the cuff. If this keeps up I will get into details and explain why Ron Paul has been fighting these soul-thieves all his life.
Where are you getting this? Everything I say is my own opinions based on my own analysis.
Tons of people do this, almost any salaried professional. Numbers are just rough amounts, and I am sure they can save a bit with deductions etc, but salaried people dont have a lot of leeway.
Thats fantastic. Other employers can then steal the employees at no cost! Free market at work.
The point is, abolishing unconstitutional IRS and abolishing constitutional Income Tax are gonna be a huge huge start in our fight to put an "end to the endless".
There are many arguments you can make regarding sales tax, but not that "its unconstitutional", So it already puts this into a different league.
And dont get me wrong, this may be a huge start, but I will wait for them to follow through with this to limit the debt ceiling, and start lowering it, after collapsing the Fed, and exposing the Magic Money scam to the people.
I said later, fren. At this hour there are lots of sleepers here.
And in this board, we always have to use our weapons to uncover the truth. So, I encourage you to use your weapons to prove what I said is wrong.
Just remember - the concept of taxing income is unconstitutional, but not the concept of taxing commerce. If you dont like the concept of any taxes - thats an entirely different discussion and you should start a whole new thread on it.
That's my whole point. Revenue-neutral is not my goal, it's my servant government's evil self-serving life-destroying goal. Destroying the IRS should be done whether or not we decide to sell ourselves and our posterity down the river a second time. But if we do the latter, we frogs are the ones responsible and not our great-grandparents who were killed by Aldrich and Rockefeller. Later.
This is the reason why this first step is a huge step. Our job is to spread the word on the normie-sphere that they are only getting rid whats unconstitutional.
...doomed to die in the Senate....
. . . and if not, then it'll die on Biden's desk . . .
...truth...
...but it isn't going to get that far....
Very likely this time around, but this is not the last time this proposal will be made. As the political elite are removed the proposal will at some point in the not to distant future pass all hurdles.
And those that oppose it this time around will only hasten their removal from the process.
...let's pray that your words prove to be prescient....
It has been a while since I read the Fair Tax proposal, but one of the things that intrigued me was the qualification requirement for the rebate paid to everyone to compensate for taxes paid on a base level of necessities. To get this rebate, a person must have a valid Social Security account number. This mean that the millions of illegals working as well as not working will not receive this rebate but will still have to pay the tax on all items purchesed. Also, they will no longer qualify for the Earned Income Tax Rebate for their children in and out of the country. It would be much harder for them to undercut the wage level for working citizens.
I realize this proposal has very little chance of becomming law because so many people benefit from the system as it is, even though they pretend to oppose it. The debate almost always boils down to why there should be no taxes rather than what type of tax is best. Like it or not, there is going to be some system of tax and it is not going to be considered equitable by those who have to pay it.
From my standpoint, the most attractive aspect of this proposal is that I would have the opportunity to control my level of tax by controlling my spending. I believe it was Senator Phil Gramm of Texas who remarked about our tendency to reward those things we oppose and punish those thing we support. He was talking about giving tax breaks for interest on debt and imposing taxes for interest on savings. In many ways this proposal changes that equation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_FairTax_Book
The Fair Tax Book by John Linder, Neal Boortz
Nope, I wrote my analysis here: https://greatawakening.win/p/16ZqiIk4Yr/x/c/4Tpya0lcciq
Interesting that it cohencides with the CBDC .....
Be careful what you wish for.
Expect to have more invasive tracking of your expenditures. Sounds like a way to phase out cash. It’s a given that people will go underground and local. EBay and Marketplace are already poised to get into your business.
Okay, I educated myself and it's much more satanic than I thought.
When people can save almost 25% by buying "off the books" you can bet that tax-avoidance of that sort will be VERY common, and barter will also get a boost. Anything to avoid paying that 23.5% tax on everything you buy.
The good news is that by putting the tax rate right in people's faces all the time, citizen pressure to shrink government will finally start gaining some steam.
Consumption tax seems fair to me. Homeless and welfare recipients contribute, and it's more fair for rich folks who live frugally.
People haven’t liked it here? I don’t know how any normal person or small business wouldn’t be super happy with that tax plan. It’s the most researched and vetted plan out there and has been for years. It requires changing a few laws and adding an amendment which is hard.
I don't like it because everything is a bait and switch. The already high 23.5% rate will increase over time. The prebate will decrease. That's just how it works. All the happy talk about having more control is just that - happy talk. The tax applies to essentials like food and gas. This gives the government more control over how much we pay for those essentials. You know, the same government that is orchestrating food and energy shortages. If the rate goes up, retailers will have no choice but to charge it. We need food and gas and will have no choice but to pay it.
At least now, we can find alternatives to paying income taxes with the underground economy, filing as exempt or not filing at all. The government doesn't control that. I like it that way.
Actually the fair tax makes it so everyone is taxed the same and it’s based on what you buy. No more IRS, no more filing taxes, no more taxation multiple times on the same thing. It’s the fair tax because it is the same for everyone, and it’s on goods so the stores don’t have to charge more for their goods they charge the price and the tax gets tacked on at the end… I don’t think you understand the point of the fair tax, it’s to take it out of the hands of the government.
I might agree with you if essentials like food and energy were exempt. I don't see how this is taken out of the hands of the government. They set the tax rate and the "prebate" amount and income levels. That's a huge amount of control. Once this is in place, they can raise the tax to whatever they want. How much control do we have at that point, especially with things like food and gas? None, because we need those things to live.
I understand that more people will be paying, thus making that aspect of it more fair. And I think it's a great idea to get rid of the IRS and the complicated tax code. However, 23.5% is absolutely outrageous. And it will only go up from there. I think you're underestimating and glossing over the amount of control the government still has.
Also, states charge sales tax and income tax. That has to be factored in. Some states already charge tax on food and it's different in every state. That has to be considered in how much people pay.
Further, why is this "revenue neutral?" Ninety percent of the government is unconstitutional bloat. The senseless wars, the needless busy-body bureaucrat class, weaponized agencies, surveillance apparatus, research on defecating habits of Chinese LGBTQ salamanders and every other money laundering scheme are all baked into that 23.5% rate. It's a bamboozle.
Change it to 2% and they're never allowed to raise it and they've got a deal. Make them live within their means for a change. If I'm misstating something, please correct me.
I think you should go read the fair tax proposal again you are stating things that are covered in it. Your what if’s are covered. About 15 years ago I studied it and was an advocate of it for a while, then moved on due to no traction by government officials because it took their financing away. Their ability to manipulate and redirect funds goes away. It has been years since I delved into it, but if you read it it will answer these questions you have. It is the best plan out there. And FYI you pay about 50% taxes now you just don’t realize it.
I did go back and read it more carefully. I will concede I was not giving the prebate the credence it deserves and I was underestimating the potential benefits to businesses and thus, society at large, by eliminating the burden the IRS and tax code impose on them. My default is to not trust anything Congress does as all trust was broken a long time ago. However, after reading through the plan more thoroughly, I am somewhat more optimistic about it. I will keep an open mind. Thank you for your feedback.
I agree with you! Another reason that I like the FairTax is that it has been around for a long time and written by John Linder and Neal Boortz. Neal Boortz was a conservative talk radio host and hence spent years covering it on his show. It was not concocted by a bunch of unqualified politicians.
I hope that people will go back and listen to Neal Boortz shows where he covered it, it is very eye opening and the only way forward to curb the money laundering the government does. It controls the government more than the people for sure.
Fantastic. High rate though, graet idea!