Wife and I bought our house in 2021; the house is over 100 years old with plaster walls. In remodeling the house, I learned to do smooth coat plaster to keep the walls original, and added a couple of arch ways and new hardwood floors.
Still have a lot of work to do on it yet, but very happy with what we have.
Similar scenario here in Chicago. House is 99 this yr. Woodframe, plaster walls and all, but they put a canvas over the plaster in our dining room, including the ceiling, to smooth it out, at some point. Well, you basically have to remove it to renovate. Then you're left with all the imperfections they left. Our dining room was so bad I had to either pull the plaster down or find a work around. I found a product in the UK called fibre paper and it's basically a fibre wall-paper you adhere to the plaster and can then paint. Not sold in the US. Still tons of work prepping for it, but worth every penny and drop of sweat!! The room looks like it was built yesterday!! Good luck with rest of your restoration!!!
Homes built before around 1980 were much more well-built than today. The materials have indeed been bad for the past few decades. But with the right policies, things could go back to where they were 50 years ago.
This holds true for even further back than 1980. Victorian style houses, the ones built with brick (not just brick veneer, but actual brick walls throughout, even inside) are even better than the 1980 houses.
They do have other issues of course (plumbing, wiring etc), but construction quality was better before WW2. At some point the US switched to wood from brick and basically that was that.
There are good things about wood, but there's also a point to the three-little-pigs story about wooden houses vs brick houses.
To the first point: Timber that is grown in cold conditions will be harder and tougher, because it grows more slowly. So yes, Canadian lumber is a thing.
Sidebar: I just saw a piece about growing oaks for warships. The oaks were grown between larks and spruce, so that the trees became tall through competition. This made nice long lengths for the ships. So, that took 150 years before harvest. European Navies effectively planned 150 + years ahead for their fleets.
Anyway, to the shoddy building materials thread:
I am from Europe too, but I have a different slant on the story.
I live in the shakiest Isles in the world. All you need to do is google earthquakes in the 20's that levelled NZ cities made in the 'old country' way - of double story houses with structural (i.e. they supported the roof frames) doubled brick walls -often sharing walls with a row of neigbours - in the time-honored narrow housefront Saxon city-planning style - i.e. an outside wall-gap-inside wall - all brick.
So much damage, and so many lives lost, from bricks flying all over the place.
Single story Timber buildings - yes - these did fine, thanks. So, the government of the time, wrote a building code that had extensive instructions for brick veneer on timber frame - with brick ties to stabilize the bricks. Bricks weren't allowed willy-nilly without registered bridklayers doing the work and inspections, except bricks were allowed around fire-places, for decoration. Not full stacks - for obvious reasons.
Concrete, reinforced with steel, was also prescribed after that earthquake- yes, provided it has lots of steel and earthquake proofing, and designed release joints- so very expensive for first time buyers and working folk.
My point was: a German fellow asked me why houses were 'so cheaply built' in New Zealand - that back home, everyone wants brick. And I pointed out that Timber frame is earthquake resistant. So he shrugged his shoulders and said he preferred briick. LOL. He went back home, I guess.
I think Japanese architects can tell a similar story. Wood is good for flex. Once you have a frame, it needs cladding. Plasterboard is a time-honorored way to do that. And yes, you can punch holes in it. What are you, a savage? Anyway, there are some preddy tough plaster, or cement boards out there for fire-proofing, sound-proofing, kid-proofing and as underlays for tiles - to be fair. But nothing is stopping you hanging tongue and groove wooden boards, or even deorative plywood - if you want strength.
"From visiting the East coast, I saw that some of the older houses where made from brick."
Only the exterior. Interior is still drywall, so same shitty construction you have experienced.
Yes, this is a MASSIVE shock coming from Europe. House construction in the US is abysmal compared to even POOR european countries, while cost is 10x at least.
And most of the US doesn't even have to deal with earthquakes.
Adding to this. "Roof replacement". If you have a non-wooden roof, you don't need to replace it.
Similar experience with my grandfather's house. Built in 1955 with STONE. No concrete columns; just stone. Flat roof concrete slab.
Superb insulation. Has survived 4 major earthquakes. Still standing. No roof replacement. What's to replace? The concrete? Maybe the terracotta tiles, but only if you want to.
Find an american house from 1955 with its wooden roof still standing... :)
Lumber and plywood from the Pacific Northwest was the industry standard up till the mid 70’s. Environmental law (spotted owl) basically ended old growth logging. What left is small diameter logs that contain wider growth rings and a lot more knots. Hence timber and plywood are not as good as when old growth trees were used.
I've often wondered the very same thing. Of course it's always about the money and by building with wood, there is almost a constant need for more wood to repair, add on or whatever. Brick homes make soooooo much more sense and I truly wish we would start doing that.
Everything new around here is crap framing and stucco. I chose to buy an older house that is brick with the exception of the add on and garage. Now way I would want the poorly executed wood frame and stucco. Thank the Lord I bought this place in 2000, I wouldn't be able to afford the prices these days. My mortgage is cheaper than a one bedroom apartment.
Most new houses here in oklahoma are brick. People will not buy anything else. We have a lot of wind and tornados..... we had hundred miles per hour winds last week. I lost one shingle tab.
Several things, the majority of our lumber doesn't come from Canada. It's like 60-40 split in favor of native forests. While obviously not as much as Canada, the US has 10s of millions of acres of timberland across the west, south, and north east. So we're not dependent on canada for timber at all.
Second of all, it's more of a cultural thing. Same reason why our roads are bigger than European roads. A lot of European houses have existed for hundreds of years and the areas have sort of local laws that require new builds to "match" the older buildings to as to not take away from the local aesthetic. That kind of rule doesn't really exist here in the US, so when housing got more expensive, we turned to more affordable methods of building houses. I agree, that the cheap modern housing we mostly produce kind of sucks in comparison, but it's not like you CAN'T get a nice stick built house with superior materials. It's more than possible and happens quite often in nicer neighborhoods. Unless you're buying into some crappy subdevelopment full of cookie cutter McMansions, pretty much every "nice" neighborhood, will have mostly custom built houses with the owners choice of material. Brick and mortar is quite a popular choice in those areas, as is is reclaimed timber and log homes, as well as those fancy fireproof cement logs and "water stone" homes.
Most of those ugly (in my opinion) "modern" homes you see in california, Florida, Texas, etc. are also solid concrete pours and not plaster as well.
It's all about where you live and how much money you have. This isn't a US specific thing either, Europe is kind of Unique in how anal they are about housing materials. Japan for example, literally designed their housing industry to BE replaceable. When you buy a house in japan, you basically buy the land and demolish any existing structure because you're not legally allowed to live in it if it's over X amount of years old and you're not the original builder or inherited it. Their housing market is designed with replacement in mind, so their houses ARE EVEN CHEAPER and EVEN MORE INFERIOR in terms of materials to US homes.
But if prices come down, I have little doubt more people would obviously select the superior materials when possible.
I am from Brazil, where even in the Slums! houses are made from Brick and Mortar. Everytime people see in the news the devastation from hurricanes, they cant believe Americans build that way. They laugh incredulent. I lived for 30+ Years in Switzerland, usually in houses over 100 Y/O... once even in a house of 400 Years! When you walk trough the old town of Zurich, you find on most houses plaques telling the story of the house, what famous ppl stayed there etc... its like walking in a museum.
I'll take soundproof drywall, ballistic panels and steel framing please. I don't mind using a metal drillbit to hang my mirrors! Beats the hell out of termites and rotting
Oldest house in US is timber built. 1600's in New England. Most of the old city of Williamsburg, VA. Mount Vernon, George Washington's estate. Most houses in Savanah. Innumerable old estates.
I watch a lot of House Hunters International and I am curious where in Europe you can buy less expensive homes. They are tiny and the designed homes wouldn't pass US inspections. Stairways in Amsterdam for instance are death traps. The closets are non extant and a washer/dryer in the kitchen with few ovens and tiny refrigerators is not my cuppa.
I would absolutely hate plaster walls. Finding a stud is easy compared to hanging anything on or repairing plaster. We have all sorts of roofing, including 100 year roofs. And you can purchase whatever degree of insulation you want.
As far as I know, the USGS hazard map shows areas with the greatest risk - not no risk. Almost anywhere can have an earthquake and has at some point. Even places that do not seem prone to shaking. Pretty much every place in the West is risky and the older masonry buildings are of concern because they are the most likely to collapse. But, I agree that building with good bricks makes a lot more sense for other reasons. Temp regulation being just one. Wooden structures with plaster walls are also better but harder to build. We don't make things like we used to. Everything has to be fast and cheap. Too bad.
Wife and I bought our house in 2021; the house is over 100 years old with plaster walls. In remodeling the house, I learned to do smooth coat plaster to keep the walls original, and added a couple of arch ways and new hardwood floors.
Still have a lot of work to do on it yet, but very happy with what we have.
Similar scenario here in Chicago. House is 99 this yr. Woodframe, plaster walls and all, but they put a canvas over the plaster in our dining room, including the ceiling, to smooth it out, at some point. Well, you basically have to remove it to renovate. Then you're left with all the imperfections they left. Our dining room was so bad I had to either pull the plaster down or find a work around. I found a product in the UK called fibre paper and it's basically a fibre wall-paper you adhere to the plaster and can then paint. Not sold in the US. Still tons of work prepping for it, but worth every penny and drop of sweat!! The room looks like it was built yesterday!! Good luck with rest of your restoration!!!
Homes built before around 1980 were much more well-built than today. The materials have indeed been bad for the past few decades. But with the right policies, things could go back to where they were 50 years ago.
We could if AMericans started making bricks!!
This holds true for even further back than 1980. Victorian style houses, the ones built with brick (not just brick veneer, but actual brick walls throughout, even inside) are even better than the 1980 houses.
They do have other issues of course (plumbing, wiring etc), but construction quality was better before WW2. At some point the US switched to wood from brick and basically that was that.
There are good things about wood, but there's also a point to the three-little-pigs story about wooden houses vs brick houses.
And fire is a thing as well.
Does the saying 'quik easy cheap' ring a bell ?
From Europe as well and 100% agree with OP
Only two out of three possible at one time.
Make Houses and Bldgs out of Hemp Again!
Huh?? Hemp as a building material?? Tell us about it.
The hemp cinder blocks are solid building materials and i believe flame retardant but dont quote me on that
https://youtube.com/shorts/aBrtHZ640Is?si=VlOgv10VoECI3kON
Soaking in boric acid will make flame resistant
To the first point: Timber that is grown in cold conditions will be harder and tougher, because it grows more slowly. So yes, Canadian lumber is a thing.
Sidebar: I just saw a piece about growing oaks for warships. The oaks were grown between larks and spruce, so that the trees became tall through competition. This made nice long lengths for the ships. So, that took 150 years before harvest. European Navies effectively planned 150 + years ahead for their fleets.
Anyway, to the shoddy building materials thread:
I am from Europe too, but I have a different slant on the story.
I live in the shakiest Isles in the world. All you need to do is google earthquakes in the 20's that levelled NZ cities made in the 'old country' way - of double story houses with structural (i.e. they supported the roof frames) doubled brick walls -often sharing walls with a row of neigbours - in the time-honored narrow housefront Saxon city-planning style - i.e. an outside wall-gap-inside wall - all brick.
So much damage, and so many lives lost, from bricks flying all over the place.
Single story Timber buildings - yes - these did fine, thanks. So, the government of the time, wrote a building code that had extensive instructions for brick veneer on timber frame - with brick ties to stabilize the bricks. Bricks weren't allowed willy-nilly without registered bridklayers doing the work and inspections, except bricks were allowed around fire-places, for decoration. Not full stacks - for obvious reasons.
Concrete, reinforced with steel, was also prescribed after that earthquake- yes, provided it has lots of steel and earthquake proofing, and designed release joints- so very expensive for first time buyers and working folk.
My point was: a German fellow asked me why houses were 'so cheaply built' in New Zealand - that back home, everyone wants brick. And I pointed out that Timber frame is earthquake resistant. So he shrugged his shoulders and said he preferred briick. LOL. He went back home, I guess.
I think Japanese architects can tell a similar story. Wood is good for flex. Once you have a frame, it needs cladding. Plasterboard is a time-honorored way to do that. And yes, you can punch holes in it. What are you, a savage? Anyway, there are some preddy tough plaster, or cement boards out there for fire-proofing, sound-proofing, kid-proofing and as underlays for tiles - to be fair. But nothing is stopping you hanging tongue and groove wooden boards, or even deorative plywood - if you want strength.
Yeah, so replacing the hallway with a higher-grade, or even ply stuff will help - considering the heavy-duty use. Most people don't
"From visiting the East coast, I saw that some of the older houses where made from brick."
Only the exterior. Interior is still drywall, so same shitty construction you have experienced.
Yes, this is a MASSIVE shock coming from Europe. House construction in the US is abysmal compared to even POOR european countries, while cost is 10x at least.
And most of the US doesn't even have to deal with earthquakes.
Adding to this. "Roof replacement". If you have a non-wooden roof, you don't need to replace it.
But 'roofing' is big business in the US.
Similar experience with my grandfather's house. Built in 1955 with STONE. No concrete columns; just stone. Flat roof concrete slab.
Superb insulation. Has survived 4 major earthquakes. Still standing. No roof replacement. What's to replace? The concrete? Maybe the terracotta tiles, but only if you want to.
Find an american house from 1955 with its wooden roof still standing... :)
Lumber and plywood from the Pacific Northwest was the industry standard up till the mid 70’s. Environmental law (spotted owl) basically ended old growth logging. What left is small diameter logs that contain wider growth rings and a lot more knots. Hence timber and plywood are not as good as when old growth trees were used.
Plus don’t the cut boards smaller and place studs farther apart than back in the good old days?
Good post!! Hope builders read it.
I've often wondered the very same thing. Of course it's always about the money and by building with wood, there is almost a constant need for more wood to repair, add on or whatever. Brick homes make soooooo much more sense and I truly wish we would start doing that.
Planned obsolescence.
Same thing with 'roofing'. It's a racket.
Humans know how to build durable roofs. American builders CHOOSE not to.
You are 100% correct - planned obsolescence.
Since you hate so much about America why do you live here?
“ How did you come to that conclusion?”
You had a lot of negative things to say and not one positive. And said you came from Europe.
Probably doesnt live here. We have a lot of Candians here,that don't identify themselves much....
They applied the coin clipping concept to dimensional lumber and that's the result.
Everything new around here is crap framing and stucco. I chose to buy an older house that is brick with the exception of the add on and garage. Now way I would want the poorly executed wood frame and stucco. Thank the Lord I bought this place in 2000, I wouldn't be able to afford the prices these days. My mortgage is cheaper than a one bedroom apartment.
I agree 100%. My wife and I talk about how cheaply made our houses in the US are. I wish we would use cinder blocks or some type of brick and mortar.
Most homes in the south are a stud wall,with one layer of brick siding. I'm very happy with mine.
Most (older, pre-2020) homes in the south are very nice, yes.
Post 2020 construction is some faceless/souleless corporate box. No brick, vinlyl sidings. Just ugly minecraft houses. With crazy asking prices.
Most new houses here in oklahoma are brick. People will not buy anything else. We have a lot of wind and tornados..... we had hundred miles per hour winds last week. I lost one shingle tab.
Several things, the majority of our lumber doesn't come from Canada. It's like 60-40 split in favor of native forests. While obviously not as much as Canada, the US has 10s of millions of acres of timberland across the west, south, and north east. So we're not dependent on canada for timber at all.
Second of all, it's more of a cultural thing. Same reason why our roads are bigger than European roads. A lot of European houses have existed for hundreds of years and the areas have sort of local laws that require new builds to "match" the older buildings to as to not take away from the local aesthetic. That kind of rule doesn't really exist here in the US, so when housing got more expensive, we turned to more affordable methods of building houses. I agree, that the cheap modern housing we mostly produce kind of sucks in comparison, but it's not like you CAN'T get a nice stick built house with superior materials. It's more than possible and happens quite often in nicer neighborhoods. Unless you're buying into some crappy subdevelopment full of cookie cutter McMansions, pretty much every "nice" neighborhood, will have mostly custom built houses with the owners choice of material. Brick and mortar is quite a popular choice in those areas, as is is reclaimed timber and log homes, as well as those fancy fireproof cement logs and "water stone" homes.
Most of those ugly (in my opinion) "modern" homes you see in california, Florida, Texas, etc. are also solid concrete pours and not plaster as well.
It's all about where you live and how much money you have. This isn't a US specific thing either, Europe is kind of Unique in how anal they are about housing materials. Japan for example, literally designed their housing industry to BE replaceable. When you buy a house in japan, you basically buy the land and demolish any existing structure because you're not legally allowed to live in it if it's over X amount of years old and you're not the original builder or inherited it. Their housing market is designed with replacement in mind, so their houses ARE EVEN CHEAPER and EVEN MORE INFERIOR in terms of materials to US homes.
But if prices come down, I have little doubt more people would obviously select the superior materials when possible.
I am from Brazil, where even in the Slums! houses are made from Brick and Mortar. Everytime people see in the news the devastation from hurricanes, they cant believe Americans build that way. They laugh incredulent. I lived for 30+ Years in Switzerland, usually in houses over 100 Y/O... once even in a house of 400 Years! When you walk trough the old town of Zurich, you find on most houses plaques telling the story of the house, what famous ppl stayed there etc... its like walking in a museum.
Hempcrete? https://www.isohemp.com/en/hempcrete-naturally-high-performance-masonry
Cob? https://www.cobcode.org/code-approved
Compressed cardboard? https://www.ineltec.net/news/construction/cardboard-houses-change-construction-industry-cheap-and-easy
I'll take soundproof drywall, ballistic panels and steel framing please. I don't mind using a metal drillbit to hang my mirrors! Beats the hell out of termites and rotting
Saline salts in the material will stop termites and others.
Oldest house in US is timber built. 1600's in New England. Most of the old city of Williamsburg, VA. Mount Vernon, George Washington's estate. Most houses in Savanah. Innumerable old estates.
I watch a lot of House Hunters International and I am curious where in Europe you can buy less expensive homes. They are tiny and the designed homes wouldn't pass US inspections. Stairways in Amsterdam for instance are death traps. The closets are non extant and a washer/dryer in the kitchen with few ovens and tiny refrigerators is not my cuppa.
I would absolutely hate plaster walls. Finding a stud is easy compared to hanging anything on or repairing plaster. We have all sorts of roofing, including 100 year roofs. And you can purchase whatever degree of insulation you want.
There are a lot of similar homes in the south west and in California. And PA has a lot of stone houses but they are not Mediterranean.
The street is charming. But I am betting the inside would be a challenge without extensive renovation. I am spoiled as regards space and appliances.
Compressed earth blocks are amazing tech.
Many Americans live in seismically active areas. Masonry is a poor choice for structures given earthquake risks.
As far as I know, the USGS hazard map shows areas with the greatest risk - not no risk. Almost anywhere can have an earthquake and has at some point. Even places that do not seem prone to shaking. Pretty much every place in the West is risky and the older masonry buildings are of concern because they are the most likely to collapse. But, I agree that building with good bricks makes a lot more sense for other reasons. Temp regulation being just one. Wooden structures with plaster walls are also better but harder to build. We don't make things like we used to. Everything has to be fast and cheap. Too bad.