Hi, I have a question. I got into a long discussion with my law-student brother who, while very conservative and a Trump voter, is certainly no anon and very by the books. He said to me about Pence’s decision on the 6th that it was his constitutional duty to certify the votes, even though they may have been fraudulent, because the states had given him their already certified votes. In other words, the states came to pence and said, “we elected this guy, we’ve already certified it.” This left Pence, even if he knew the votes were fraudulent, no choice but to push them through because the constitution dictates it so. The VP “shall” certify the votes, notwithstanding the validity of them, since they’ve gotten to that point. Hopefully this makes sense.
What are your thoughts on this?
i believe legally and morally he could have and should have refused to certify. if nothing else there were Patriots suggesting he could have demanded a commission be set up that allowed 10 days or so to assess situations
Yep, we've heard this "but I have to certify them" excuse even before that day and there have been plenty of refutations.
The old "I had to gas the jews, it was my orders" excuse.
I don't buy it. Doing the right thing comes before following your orders.
That's a strange reference knowing what we know about WWII, globalists, the media, and revisionist history. The gas chambers were installed after the war. History is written by the winners.
The senate rules committee changed the certification rules shortly before the certification date, and it was a very shady move. Tell your friend to look into the technical legal details of how they changed the rules.
Basically, the senate rules making body blocked the dueling (republican) electors from being recognized as legal challengers. That in turn left Pence with only one set of electors (democrat electors) to view as eligible electors for certification. In effect, Pence was never [technically; legally] given the opportunity to hear the contesting (republican) electors, because the senate rules committee blocked their challenge by ruling that they did not exist.
Well, pence destroyed his political career by doing the “right thing”. He’ll never get past being a traitor to 70+ million citizens, if not more.
Yeah I got a really weird feeling when I heard him say that shortly before we walked over to the Capitol building.
I was hopping mad like a lot of Americans, but if you think about it... What do you think Kamala would do 4 years from now should Trump or Desantis, etc win? She could just say they are not real votes and throw them out and create all kinds of hell. And at that point The Constitution would really really officially be dead. A giant bitter pill to swallow, but perhaps for the best long term.
Given that having Pence throw up his hand and say “Stop!” was patently not how the Q plan was designed to go down, that part about upholding that precedent for the future is a nice side-benefit. Not that the Left will waver for a moment about kicking aside precedent, or the text of the Constitution, for that matter, when they can get away with it and further entrench themselves in power.
Also, I still think, despite my beloved Lin Wood throwing, um, shade on him... I think there’s still a decent chance Pence was a “white hat”.
Nah, guys that sodomize teen boys are not white hats.
From what my Voter fraud research tells me back in November Pence needed a good spanking...
Sounds like your brother needs more time in law school
Savage. Mr. Van der Veen, is that you?
That’s the answer.
And it’s so clear that it’s hard to see how there’s even a question.
That said, if in the end we learned that Pence was a white hat, I won’t be shocked.
I know the ultimate judge, and it isn't me.
The ultimate judge already knows the whole TRUTH about Pence because He is Allknowing. His judgment will be just and fair for all of US.
For this instance in time, I pray for US all and do what I can to NOT participate in any fraud.
I'd be highly shocked, considering the Paul Ryan/ Pence collusion to oust Trump was being discussed back in 2017. And that dang fly...lol
If the Vice President must certify the results, why have him in the process?
As Article II Section I Clause II of the US Constitution states:
States changed their election laws illegally, making thei election results unconstitutional and void.
I've had this for a while, obviously Pence didn't do anything but certify an illegal election. It takes a lot of courage to do the right thing, it takes a lot more courage to do nothing at all. Pence chose to have more courage to do nothing. Now look at the state our country is falling into.
White House memo details how Pence can save the presidency on Dec. 23rd.
A White House memo will legally require VP Mike Pence to reject any electoral votes from contested states. White House determined that the US Code and Constitution have language that requires the VP to reject illegal electoral votes no later than the 4th Wednesday of December (23rd). Pence has the power to determine whether to reject impermissible states of electors. Pence alone can reject fraudlent electoral college certificates. That puts Trump's electoral destiny on Pence's shoulders.
From the Memo: Article II, Sec. 1 of the US Constitution requires that "Each State shall appoint in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors." Meaning, the papers (slates) the states submit to the President of the Senate (VP) and Archivist of the US aren't legal, permissible certificates of votes and lists by electors as stated in Title 3 U.S.C sections 9&11. AZ, GA, PA, NV, MI, and WI violated Art. 2, S.1, Cl.2 and the 14th amendment of the Constitution, Section 1, Equal protections clause in administering their electors rendering their slates impermissible.
December 14th states consummated a fraudulent and Constitutionally deficient certification of their electors as required by 3 USC 7. State and federal authorities have found overwhelming evidence of fraud and irregularities since 11/4 likely rising to the level criminal election fraud (treasonous) and public corruption. Civil courts dismissed the claims procedurally, rather than on substance.
Pence must notify the Sec of State in each contested state that they have until Jan 6th to send a legal electoral college certificate.
From the Memo: The president of the Senate, as the VP, statutorily sits on the National Security Council and is privy to info no other individual in the presidential electoral process has -- not the states, SCOTUS, Congress. This includes any classified evidence and assessments which emanate from EO 13848 regrading foreign interference with US Elections. The president of the Senate is qualified to issue judgment on impermissible electors.
If Pence wants to follow the law, from December 23 until Jan 6, he must instruct the states to remedy their electoral college certificates. From the Memo: Judgement: All of the above factors inform and contribute to Pence's analysis in deciding that he, as the representative of the Federal Seat of Government did not "receive" a Constitutionally permissible slate of electors. Given the reason, he is not only duty-bound to request that the States send certificates and lists as required by Title 3 USC sections 9 &11 from electors that were appointed in the State Legislatures directed as soon as possible, he is also the sole plenary power that has authority to make this determination.
Assuming the 6 contested states, AZ, PA, GA, MI, WI, and NV don't remedy their electoral college certificates by either holding another election or selecting in the Legislature, president Trump prevails in the Electoral College. There will no longer be 538 Electoral votes within several states having disqualified themselves by refusing to comply, President Trump will have accrued 232 Electors to Joe Biden's 227.
Sources: https://nationalfile.com/exclusive-white-house-memo-details-how-pence-card-can-save-trumps-presidency-on-dec-23/
EO13848: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-imposing-certain-sanctions-event-foreign-interference-united-states-election/
Exactly... Pence took the easy way out!
I believe there is precedent in the past where a VP over stepped his strict constitutional role and then cut a deal with the opposition. So anyone who says "this is exactly what a person should do" is talking with book knowledged but not practical knowledge.
In this case, there was also the fact that certain states sent dual slates of electors and afaik the constitution does not say anywhere that the slate "certified" by the legislators is the "real" slate.
But, these are merely academic questions. We have to remember that the plan worked out exactly as planned. There was no expectation from Trump that Pence would actually do anything different. Its not about who can do what, but rather that the system as a whole has been captured from top to bottom. Some could be due to corruption, some could be due to procedural issue, but the bottom line is that Trump never had a venue to air the election fraud on its merits.
You know it is obvious. If Pence thought he was doing the "right, legal move" why not have a conversation with his president ahead of time? If Pence, the christian, was right why not have the conversation? Why STAB the President in the back and the millions of Americans that voted for him by not talking with the president in advance? Answer, Pence was wrong and knew it!! He was checked out after the election and had no intention of fighting the steal. He knew what they did and most likely had a heads up. Remember his vacationing in Colorado while Trump was fighting the steal, his wanting to travel, he only change when he realized the optics were not good for him. He will go down as one of the biggest traitors in history. Pences political career is over!
Yes, technically it couldve went either way, but he took the chicken way out and didnt deal with it.. Not dealing with it has consequences too, just as the supreme court did... Pence has been dirty though, he's definitely a black hat, I'm pretty sure his wife is too, he got a letter at Bush Srs funeral and Isaac kappy said pence was bad from the beginning
On unusual circumstances Pence knew of the election fraud, the lying and cheating that went on so those already certified votes were illegal. And tell your friend the states do not decide who gets to be President the people do!
Those States knew what they were doing was wrong but they went ahead and did it anyways. Pence should have refused to certify knowing about the fraud in making this election invalid.
Anyways about your law-student brother it sounds like he hasn't done much research on the subject and just assumes? Tell him to do his research and look at the election fraud. Real lawyers and even students should being doing their own research and looking into the matter instead of just assuming what they see and hear is fact...
If your friend law student brother want's a good role model tell him to follow Sidney Powell https://t.me/s/SidneyPowell/ and maybe even Lin Wood long time lawyers who are actually looking into this mess! Today Sidney said today was a good day and a lot is happening.... These are smart people and they follow the law by the books.
So what Pence did on Jan 6th is he broke the law!
Friendly note if your Brother wants to be a good lawyer someday he needs to start questioning everything...
There was overwhelming evidence of fraud. By certifying the votes he openly agreed that the fraudulent election was to stand. This means he committed treason by being the last safe guard to letting an illegitimate power "seemingly" take over.
The reality is no one knows anything until Trump shows his hands.
He had a choice. It’s been done before.
OK, but there was a middle ground.
Several states had sent two sets of Electors to DC. That indicated they they were having second thoughts about their original decision. Pence could have asked for a few more days so that the state legislatures could have clarified things but he did not.
Also, doing only what is legally necessary is not always the best solution. Imagine you are crossing a one-way street and traffic is allowed to approach only from the left. Do you never look right on the grounds that no-one should be approaching from that side? Or do you do the risk analysis and decide that your life could be over if that happened so it is worth the extra glance?
Pence is a pussy.
Pence’s part in this has been on my mind since the beginning. If you check my history, you’ll find I wrote a post on this - people contradicted that Pence may be good because of Lin Wood’s revelations, which I addressed as well.
But all that aside, let’s imagine Pence setting precedence for that. Imagine what the Dems would be doing if you give them the possibility of some power.
There's still a big question mark hanging over Pence presently. Nobody can say for certain what his true motive is.
That said, as much as I would have loved him to reject the certification. This was never an option, no matter what obscure legalspeak or constitutional legitimacy they could use.
The reason why the big question mark lingers is I'm yet to see definitively if he is good or bad. There is plenty out there to support both sides. But if he did reject the vote, he would have caused mass chaos. We could dance in the streets for the day thinking all is good and right again but a large portion of normies will feel they have woken to a terrible world they don't understand.
Fringe lefties would be able to sway dumb normies further into their group think by framing the event as Trump seizing power and usurping democracy and that would likely give rise to violent conflict, drawing in everybody and shattering the hearts of those who never wanted violent recourse.
Evil people have to be allowed to complete the steal and do terrible things to make normies realise not just what was stolen from Trump but stolen from them. My 2 cents.
Well what Pence did was he sent the message saying it is okay to cheat...
He had plenty of legal cause to reject.
However your assessment of the result of that is correct.
And it would have only addressed 2020, but left the corruption and rot in place.
I very much trust this “plan”.
Very true. Poor phrasing on my part. But with you all the way.
I very much appreciate your dedication to accuracy.
And (if I can recall my mind-frame of 17 minutes ago) I don’t think I was even intending to quibble with you on that particular assertion; I just liked what you wrote later on, and wanted to call it out... but then felt I better disqualify the notion that I agreed with your earlier statement. For the benefit of the approximately two (2) more people who will likely ever read through the comments this already 3-hour-old thread. Yes, this is how my mind actually works. ?
TL;DR it’s all good, fren.
Appreciate the sentiment. It's been a long day battling idiots for all of us. :)