I recently broke my wrist while skateboarding, I'm 34 so that is my first mistake
I had two X-rays and anaesthetic and need my hand pulled out of my forearm and the bones manipulated back inline with eachother. I've got an appointment next week, if my bones have moved I'll need surgery to have my bones wired together
That is all free on the NHS, I did a little look in America what I've had done would of cost me $6-7000 if I had no insurance. If I need surgery it would be an extra $10,000+ more on top.
What's your views on American healthcare?
Is insurance cheaper than what I pay in taxes?
Do the insurance companies try to screw you out of care?
How much do the premium costs rise after having surgery or care?
I know Trump cut out the middleman on medication, how corrupt is the system with so many people making money in between the gaps?
I'm completely ignorant on American healthcare system but I personally like free healthcare, I know such leftie talk is not welcome here but I'm happy to hear your opinions.
Edit: I'm asking how the American system works, most people want to just talk about the NHS and it's failures which there is many. What are the pros and cons of American private as I have no idea about it
"That is all free on the NHS". Nothing is free.
That's true and it the biggest part of the budget each year. I think 40% of my taxes go to the NHS. So I am paying more each month than you, but I want to know the pros and cons of strictly private healthcare
It moves a lot of volume from the economy to the government-controlled space. They pay for doctors, hospitals, procurement of any kind of external services. It creates a space for many kind of corruption, creates a new class of government employees dependent on their policital bosses and removes the competition out of the equation. As a result - removes creativity, space for new ideas and independent treatments. It creates categories: "allowed", "recommend", "not recommended" (think: ivermectin vs ramdesivir). It's not just about "free" / paid healthcare.
In a 100% free and paid healthcase system you should be able to go to a "Zelenko Clinique", get a prescription and buy ivermectin in their internal pharmacy before leaving the building.
Any attempts to centralize are meant to set the direction where you have less and less impact on your health decisions.
The pros of paying for your healthcare is you show them the plastic and they get to work. There is no "waitlist."
There is also a list of places to go and get what you want done immediately, not a breadline waiting list for surgeries
No such thing as free....our insurance premiums have more than doubled since the "Affordable Care Act" there is not much affordable about that.
I know expats from several European countries who complain about the U.S. insurance system, but marvel at the quality of the care they receive.
One of the things that makes healthcare cost as much as it does in the U.S. is the threat of medical malpractice claims. Doctors and hospitals have to insure themselves against the possibility of being sued for malpractice. The insurance is expensive.
Can you sue NHS doctors or hospitals if the make a mistake in your care?
Sorry you have a total joint dislocation and bone break and you have "an appointment next week?" FFS are you serious? You need to be in surgery NOW. I choose to have insurance and the people who don't can use medicaid in many instances. The point is you have to pay in to the system.
Also the idea that a service is tied to a price, and that price is transparent and not manipulated is key to attacking the high costs of medicine. Like academia, if you don't get a good product, there is revolt in paying for it.
I paid for my surgeries. I paid for my college education. I have no truck with socialism. I got my money's worth in both cases. Can't say the same in the UK anymore in both types of handout systems.
I have a cast on already the two week mark after the break is the last chance to realign the bones. So I have an x-ray booked to make sure, if its fine I go home, if not it's surgery.
Do the insurance try to con you out of what you're allowed care to have?
Are the prices artificially high because of run for profit? Or are there safeguards/laws to keep the costs low?
Anything government touches turns to shit. In the UK it’s “free” healthcare. I go to holistic doctors and happily pay out of pocket. I don’t want this “free” healthcare forced on me. Standard of care is atrocious in the US
We have a mix of free market and state Medicare here in Australia similar to UK NHS except no dental and minimal elective surgery, Average pay here is 120k for a tradesman on 38 hr week but expect to pay 12k in Medicare unless you take out private insurance and you pay $35 for a GP visit but we do have the highest standards in hospital and medical so we get what we pay for, Problem i see in the UK is it is a complete free for all for anything and nobody it’s seems to bother with taking out private insurance, it’s been that way from day dot and become a religion, any mention of free market health in the uk you’d could expect to be lynched as a heretic.
We're not covered for dental or cosmetic surgery either.
120k for a tradie? That's insane I think that's converted to £60k a years thats a much better wage than the UK.
My dream was to start a new life down there for that money I probably would. I have family in Adelaide to sponsor me so I'm really thinking about it.
Do it but the big money is in Sydney and north of Brisbane, you won’t need a visa either when the new u.k au trade deal kicks in
We (in the US) pay a shit ton because we pay the costs of discovery which then gets sent out to the rest of the world for free.
Your NHS is not incentivized to discover new treatments.
That's a great point, they do a lot to weaken you and destroy your economy.
They're really scared of your potential, guns and Constitution
Englishman here that has been living in the US for well over a decade now.
The NHS is fuckin' garbage. It's akin to how the VA is here; utter garbage.
Both my elderly parents have private health care so not only have they paid into the NHS their entire working lives, they also have to pay for medical care that isn't garbage now.
Just like sending your kids to school in the US.
The NHS is also full of foreign workers because more money can be earned working in the private sector.
Don't take this as being mean, I'm just speaking plainly and honestly to you:
You like free healthcare because you're a freeloader fuck up.
The pros of private healthcare (which we do not have in the US to any meaningful degree) is the individual makes all the decisions and bears all the consequences. The result of this is freeloaders don't drag society down to their level, and the freeloaders also develop a higher degree of self responsibility. It also drives costs down as doctors and hospitals compete to provide the best services and treatments.
The closest thing to market pricing for surgery in the US is at https://surgerycenterok.com
"Freeloader fuck up" you don't even know me or what I do for living, how do you know I'm a freeloader?
If you're talking the rhetorical 'you' I understand but to call me that so you feel better is foolish.
I've worked since I was 16, in mechanics and then construction for 11 years and not taken a single penny from the state.
I've added a lot of value to society
I know you just stuck your fellow countrymen for tens of thousands in surgery and physical therapy expenses from a skateboarding accident and are quite pleased about it.
That's info you gave me, I'm not assuming anything.
How am I pleased about that? What did I say? Or are you just a dickhead.
Yes, yes he is.
The US health cartels successfully tied health care (erroneously called "insurance") plans to the workplace. Employers pay in per employee and the employee also pays in by force. They must go to in-network doctors who follow the insurance company's directives for care else they get expelled/not paid.
Alternatives still exist but they're making it harder each year to have medical freedom by centralizing and monopolizing care under the cartels.
If one can find a independent group share plan, everyone pays in and covers each other without the cartel rules. If one has money saved up they can have their own funds cover themselves, but must negotiate "cash prices" for care.
Some enterprising docs are banding together for subscription care, called different things but essentially one pays their group directly and gets all care or cheaper a la carte care, even house visits, with that practice or group.
Thank you I'm trying to build a picture of how it works in America and the other comments shown me how it works but your comment shown me how the elite are trying to corner you to relying on them.
I wasn't expecting that but it's appreciated. I see why there are strong opinions on not letting the cabal strangle you into surrendering your right to choose a plan that is not interfered by them.
I hope you have a lot more doctors coming to your defense.
We look for alternatives, but they tend to get run out of town, so to speak. Many truth-tellers have been killed along with their families over the years, especially if they gain followings and awaken people to the benefits of natural medicine (it seems that the world was designed to provide what we need). DOs, Drs of Osteopathy, are holistic and worth seeking out.
But you live on welfare. The biggest mistake the UK made after WWII was going full tilt socialism, Soviet-lite, and the second biggest was the US letting them.
Do you think we're communists? That we have no private enterprise? There is a welfare system like America has but we do have jobs as well.
I'm self employed so I file a tax return each year, I don't get welfare, sick pay or holiday pay.
Better to pay for it out of pocket like any other service, get the government completely out of it except for prosecution of fraud cases, and only purchase insurance for catastrophic events and long term care needs. Used to be, if you broke your wrist, you would pay the doctor directly, it was reasonable in cost, and he came to your house! We don’t have anything like that anymore because the government got involved and health insurance became tied to employment. We in the USA have excellent healthcare, but the economics surrounding it are all wrong.
Thanks for your reply, so the business you work for pays your private healthcare costs.
They pay the majority of the insurance premium. The insurance company pays the healthcare costs, you typically pay a deductible of like 500 or 1000 depending on the care. You can still get insurance on your own but its like 10x expensive. If you are uninsured you’re screwed and will probably have to file bankruptcy if it was something major.
Basically if you have a decent job you’ll be ok. If you don’t you better be rich. Low wage workers in shitty jobs that don’t have insurance just go to the ER for everything and just don’t pay the bill, file bankruptcy or get hounded by collectors forever.
Thanks for explaining, so you have to contribute to the policy as well.
America is different to the UK, the benefits you have is immediate help whereas we have wait to get stuff done.
Whereas I'd worry that the insurance companies would find a way out of paying for your treatment.
They always pay. The only problem you have here is losing your job and therefore your insurance.
The US “system” is a bit like foreign aid to Ukraine.
It’s bureaucratic looting, with the beneficiaries the insurance companies and health systems — a third of the economy. It’s important to realize that before coming to any conclusions about our “free-market.”
Your situation here would depend on what State you lived in. If you don’t have insurance, the hospital would likely help get you enrolled in whatever government plan you qualify for — most public aid is State run. Those options would be exhausted before you were handed a bill, and bills can be negotiated.
Obamacare significantly reduced the number of providers taking public aid though. So the claim they expanded healthcare coverage is ruse; more people got government insurance, but there are far fewer doctors to treat them for general care. A shell game.
‘Free-market’ Insurance premiums per individual might cost between $1,500-$9,000 annually. The lower cost premiums cover less and have higher copays and deductibles. Is it more than NIH? Our State and Federal taxes depend on income, but most working people are paying 30%-50%.
The tangible benefit of ‘market incentives’ is in innovation and access — at least if you’re near a major metropolitan area. The difference in Emergency Care is striking.
Princess Diana is a tragic example, even though it was the French system. In any major city in the US she would have been in surgery in a Level 1 Trauma Center within 60 minutes. I can’t say that would have saved her, but I can say that the 3-hour delay to get her into surgery was fatal.
And for you — bones need to be set with 24 hours. Major hospitals will have Ortho consult in the ER, and at bare minimum would set and mold (a half cast to immobilize the joint, but not circumferential). The bones shouldn’t “move” once their immobilized.
Hope you heal well and fast. Cheers.
Thank you, I'm sure both our systems could be better.
I like the privatised way but weary on the scams the elites have plumaged and pilfered it away as you explained with Obama. They must of corrupted it like they do with everything. Our NHS is backed by taxes and national insurance payments. It depends on how much you earn, we have tax brackets so you don't pay tax on the first £12k you earn and then pay 20% of what you earn above that to £37k. This is the majority of people that pay that. I reckon about £1000 of my taxes go to the NHS
I didn't know that Diana waited 3hrs, that's insane and supports the theory someone wanted her dead as if you go to A&E with something serious you get immediate care. It's chosen by how severe the patients condition is, they get priority.
I had the half cast the night I went in, it was a bit of a long wait but not too bad. Then went back and got the new cast straight away.
glad you got good care, hope you don't need the surgery.
before Obamacare, it's long been calculated at least 500 billion (with a b) in Medicare-Medicaid fraud per year. it's also known hospitals "pad" bills in the tens of billions a year. the endemic fraud that we know of is at least one quarter of government spending on healthcare. our hybrid private-public system could work quite well if we dismantle Nancy Pelosi-Obama crime syndicate.
the tragedy with Diana wasn't delays due to 'wait time' but the design of their emergency management system. I'm an old paramedic, and also had an encounter in a French ER due to an injury while I lived there in the 90s. I thought I went back in time to the 1970s. the standard of care was at least 20 years behind the US. at the time, I predicted that it would not change until a famous person died, but I don't know if Diana's death brought the necessary changes. the French attitude and work ethic lack a 'sense of urgency,' which is in part cultural, part lack of any incentives to achieve -- let alone hyper-achieve, a blessing and curse in the American psyche.
but in spite of that, the way Diana was treated is still inexplicable if you are trying to save a life.
Thank you I'm getting good care, they were really good. There was the usual few in there complaining as always but you could see they were working hard.
I can't speak for the French system back then as I was a child but as far as I can remember Britain has like a colour code system, bleeding/serious head trauma/organs failure was red the other side of the scale broken bones, cuts needing stitches etc were yellow.
America is an exceptional country I love what the founding fathers envisioned but it looks like the old money of Europe didn't like it and waged war on you to bring you back to being a subject not a citizen.
I'd need to look more into Diana's life and death more as I do feel it was a bit of a ritual killing. I think what did she know.
I can't wait for the NHS to go down..and a large amount of arrests for murder
Read The Bernician website the madazolam murders..murder by government decree..how the police s enquiry..aid there was no case to answer..now at police complaint stage and redrafting of case for court..corrupt court...
We don't have options.
Since the fake COVID started there has been a blanket do not resuscitate on over 50s men tally or physically handicapped..their definition..bewildered..not wanting to take medicine..have tubes down their throat..asking questions. No visitors..no autopsies police enquiry coroner's etc. Just a death certificate signed by two doctors who are the ones jabbing people
I hate this island...it must be most corrupt in the world and at one time it's empire stretched over most of the world and still does through puppets put in power a d the Rothschild central banking we system..apart from russia Syria ..constantly bombed for twenty years..Iran Bolivia Cuba North Korea and Abkhazia.
Make you think doesnt it? USA was going to have a gold backed dollar but two days after signing for the gold with Indonesia John f Kennedy was publically murdered by the CIA..guess who they work for?
My husband works for a fortune 500 company an has the option to take premium insurance with a low deductible for $3000 a year. He is also a diabetic. In our 20 years together we've realized the system wants to keep you sick. We now just take the cheap option with a high deductible and go to Mexico to get our prescriptions. Much cheaper, less intrusive, and if we want to see a specialist, it's $35 in Mexico. Healthcare is a joke.
I remember Michael Moore took a load of Americans from NYC after 911 to Cuba for inhalers and such. They could only get a few from their provider due to the cost eating into the funds they were covered for, in Cuba the inhaler was 5¢.
In Britain your prescription is about £8-9 per month.
That's what I want to know, I understand the privatisation sounds good but is there a lot of greedy sharks at every step running the cost up for the average people.
You get what you pay for. Nothing gets you nothing. The Brits who need care now for things like knee or hip replacements often come to the US for them, where the wait time for the procedure takes as long as processing the credit card. Ditto Canada - they come here who need it.
In America we subsidize for all illegals.
Worth every free penny.
First of all - Nothing is “Free”.
How much freedom do you have to choose your doctor?
That's true, if you end up in hospital it's whoever is on shift. You can choose to go private in UK.
I'm just wondering if American private is a better alternative to the NHS.
Whether people can have an option to not pay the NHS part of your tax (40% of tax) and use it for private healthcare. As private is £100-200 p/ month and get better treatment.
Free enterprise and competition makes everything better- free means everyone gets the same deal-competition means you always have a choice...IMO the quality of care suffers. You take what they give you b/c it’s free...that’s good and bad... Americans are probably the wrong people to ask about this because competition is what makes us tick...plus you get what you pay for...🇺🇸
They take % of your salary for National Insurance (depending on your earnings). For high earners it can be £1,000 a month, £12,000 a year, £120,000 a decade, £400,000 for the while professional live until the retirement.
How many £6,000 or £10,000 surgeries you need in your life?
"How many £6,000 or £10,000 surgeries you need in your life?"
You don't. You're paying for your neighbors.
Yes. That's how the "free" healthcare system works.
Do you need 40 of them?
So if you have 9 neighbors - do you and your 9 neighbors need 400 surgeries, £6,000 or £10,000 each?
Because if your add neighbors to the equation - you also needed to add the National Insurance they pay.
The answer is simple: The more centralised the system - the more wasteful and less competitive (more expensive as a result).
If it is based on your salary, you're paying for your neighbors who don't make much money. Not everyone would pay the same amount.
Of course, this is also ripe for abuse, wasteful, and less competitive, as you point out.
It's poisoned honey. Very good at first, but brings systemic problems. But for something like what you suffered, it's very attractive compared to our system.
The American health care system is corrupted in other ways, its systemic problems are front and center. And it is horrible if you don't have funds and aren't completely indigent. Insurance is largely a scam. And medical costs are a competition of scammers. I'd say our system is better in theory, but in practice the results are extremely variable and often worse in overall outcomes.
Thank you for replying, I'm asking what is the American alternative to the NHS is like so I can make my mind up about which is better.
Insurance will always have a scam attached to it, I know the pitfalls of the NHS but don't know what a private for profit health system is like.
What do you think could change to make the private care better?
There is no American equivalent to the NHS. The alternatives are HMOs, which are subscription plans. They offer very good care for normally healthy people, but it's a big country and there are many different HMOs with different levels of service, so you'd have to investigate. All of them have serious deficiencies when it comes to chronic illnesses and the elderly, which is where the rationing of care occurs.
Private medical care is quite good, but it's extensive. The best change would be to deregulate the market and allow competition in the ability to practice. Right now all doctors in the country have to go through one degree provider, who literally controls the number of new MDs each year. That's the ultimate cause behind our country's medical care disgrace, slowly but surely removing the care from the health care system, and ratcheting up the system. There are many parts, but that's the driver, and that's what would effect the most change.