What would Jesus do?
(www.theamericanconservative.com)
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Context: continuing discourse on whether or not YHWH is the devil.
Do you think Jesus was actually arrested for kidnapping that 'naked boy' rather than because the Roman government was told He was starting an insurrection? See Ellicot's commentary here, it's the only one I've ever read which makes any real sense of Mark 14:51.
As is pointed out, the same word νεανίσκος is also used in Matt. 19:20 to describe the rich man who refused to part with his wealth to follow Christ. The dove-tail at the end of Ellicot's remarks is dasting.
Side note: Using Socrates, who lived some 430 years before Christ as a base for how to interpret the word νεανίσκος is ridiculous. How much has the english language evolved from 430 years ago?! I find this point to be nonsense.
Anyways the idea that Mark 14:51 was actually describing a most disgusting alternate reality is absurd given the culmination of everything Christ did and said. It's a polar inversion of His character, just like calling YHWH satan.
The passages you listed, such as where YHWH said the Israelite's wives would be taken by other men, are indeed dreadful examples of God's severity (and also of the serious nature of sin), which was all thankfully exhausted upon mankind (as a collective unit) at the cross. God was harsh in the Mosaic covenant because in order to preserve mankind long enough to save us by sending the Messiah to balance the equation between holy God and unholy man, further sinning had to be clamped down on. Israel was 'on the ark' so to say, travelling to safety (aka restoration to 'made in the image of God'), but if they destroyed one another along the way, what would be left to save? (Remember, Israel was unique at the time regarding morality laws. It was special. The other nations' systems were inferior and allowed sin to abound and become normalized. (don't worry about the Talmudic Period segment and further, I didn't even read that shit.)) Sin therefore had to carry consequences beyond itself. Look into pre-flood man & Sodom and Gomorrah; we literally couldn't continue much longer in such mentalities-corporeal.
God was being the ultimate "tough love" dad to save His kids from obliterating themselves in sin. Not only would He allow the kids to get their ass beat, He'd beat them Himself. Not only would He not bail them out of jail, He'd drive them to the jail personally. God told them what would happen if they broke His laws, and they did so repeatedly; and it played out exactly as God said it would when they did. The Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, all instruments of God's strict punishment upon rebellious, idolatrous Israel. And Israel, though they suffered greatly, managed to survive until Christ arrived. We can likely thank the righteous remnant who saw the wickedness in Israel, called it out, and were martyred for it. Isaiah in particular had it bad; it is said he was sawn in half! Doubt they used electric saws back then 😬
Deut. 28 has important end-cap contexts:
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. . . . But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
YHWH's 'if-thens' are nothing to trifle with! (just like any good dad's)
Only when you're spiritually blinded like Catholics and EO who claim the bread and wine literally turn into Jesus kek. The bread and wine are metaphors. John 6 explains it:
Read John 6:26-66 for a complete context of the 'eucharist' (I don't like that word but whatever). We know christians still get hungry, so Jesus had to also be speaking metaphorically when He said whoever comes to Him will "never hunger or thirst".
As we see, even many of His followers stopped following Him after hearing all this eat my flesh talk. I bet Jesus wanted to thin the herd before things got really dangerous. Can't have wishy-washy followers when it's life or death. The plan had to be completed, with no risk of premature subversion.
The eucharist also has another, simpler meaning as well: When we take 'communion' we are doing it to remember the torture and execution Jesus went through to save us. It's really simple. Religion has turned it into an utter farce.
Jesus often spoke in metaphors (e.g., “I am the door,” “I am the vine”). We know He wasn't a literal door or vine. Furthermore the 'Last Supper' was a Passover meal, where bread and wine already had symbolic meaning (see Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:16 where he calls it a “participation” (koinonia) in Christ’s body and blood, not a physical transformation.) So we are fellowshipping together in remembering His sacrifice which saved us all.
By mapping the Last Supper onto the Passover, Jesus gave his disciples a familiar framework to understand his sacrifice. The bread and wine, which already had symbolic meaning in the Passover, were now imbued with new significance. They pointed to Jesus as the ultimate Passover lamb, whose death would bring about a final and complete deliverance from sin and she'ol, fulfilling the promises of the Old Testament and inaugurating the new covenant (Hebrews 9, 1 Peter 1).
(During the Passover, the Israelites were instructed to eat a meal that included unleavened bread and bitter herbs, and to apply the blood of a lamb to their doorposts to protect them from the angel of death. This meal symbolized their deliverance from slavery (in Egypt) and their salvation from God's judgment. (Jesus delivered from more than just a single, physical slavery, and delivered more than only Israel.))
First, the commandment doesn't say 'kill' it says 'murder', which makes a distinction. Killing in the process of defending yourself, or during a war or conquest, is not the same thing as stabbing someone to death because they made you mad.
YHWH told Saul to eliminate the Amalekites entirely because they had been and were going to be a problem for Israel (remember the ark discussion above as to why Israel was important to protect), yet Saul disobeyed by sparing the life of Amalek's king, and the livestock. So Saul did not break 'thou shall not commit murder'. As to the coveting and stealing, perhaps he did. Regardless, he was quickly punished by YHWH for this event, so the point is moot.
According to Exodus 19, the entire house of Israel was to be priests, but YHWH established the Levitical Order because the sins of the people prevented this direct access to Him. (Think of a filtration system / buffer zone.) The specific commissioning of Aaron, his sons, and their descendants to serve in the Tabernacle is found in Exodus 27, immediately following the instructions for building the Tabernacle. The offerings system was also to foreshadow what Christ would do for us, as well as to make sin a real bitch to commit. You'd have to do all that offering for every sin, which was expensive, and most likely very annoying! YHWH was showing us just what sin is really like to Him. It's an annoying, gruesom, sad and costly thing. You think the Israelites didn't grow fond of their animals? You think it didn't hurt their hearts to see their throats slit and bodies burned? That's what sin does to YHWH's heart, though He survives it all. It's like watching your kids get into hard drugs and destroy themselves. Where do you think all the pent up rage YHWH accumulated from witnessing every sin ever committed went? (it had to go somewhere...think of the ultimate example of The Law of the Conservation of Energy) He unloaded it on Jesus, and now it's gone. If we don't believe that, perhaps we'll catch some ripples of it when we die? Echoes in eternity..
Indeed. Read the entire chapter 45. Do you think the Creator of everything somehow doesn't have the right to smash up the parts He isn't happy with? The parts that have corroded and festered? Imagine if Sodom and Gomorrah was allowed to continue, their putrid filth would have infected everybody and become the norm! Indeed look back through history and honestly tell me mankind as a whole hasn't matured from its initial barbaric and disgusting state, and I'll yield this entire arguement to you and call YHWH the devil!
u/AmateurExpert u/LateToTheShow u/killerspacerobot
I've been tagged and coming in late to this exchange, so forgive me if this was already covered. If so, then just ignore me!
But the fastest way to wreck the Gnostic claim that Yahweh = evil and separate from Jesus? 🧱👊
👇 Just walk through this:
1️⃣ Jesus = Yahweh
"Before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58). That’s a direct mic-drop from Exodus 3:14. The crowd picked up stones - they knew exactly what He meant. 🔥
2️⃣ OT Yahweh quotes applied to Jesus
Joel 2:32 → "Everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved." Paul quotes it in Romans 10:13 - but now it’s about JESUS. No split. No dual gods. Same LORD. 🙌
3️⃣ Jesus LOVED the OT
Called it “the Word of God” (Mark 7:13). Said “Scripture can’t be broken” (John 10:35). If Yahweh was some evil knockoff deity, why’s Jesus quoting Him nonstop?
4️⃣ Early Church wasn’t playing
Also, Irenaeus clapped back hard against Gnostic theology in Against Heresies - the God who created is the same one who saves. End of story. ✝️
So nah, Jesus ain’t correcting Yahweh. He IS Yahweh. And the whole Bible backs it. 📖💯
Interesting. I was going off thinking Jesus was YHWH's Son. You're saying Jesus is YHWH Himself.
Just when I think I've got things all figured out 😭😭
If Jesus is YHWH, are there any places in the OT which refer to the Father?
Totally get it - this is one of those mind-blowing moments 🔥
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God - but He’s also one in essence with the Father. That’s why He says things like, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). So we’re not saying the Son is the Father - we’re saying Father, Son, and Spirit are all Yahweh, the one true God.
Now to your question: Are there references to the Father in the OT? Yep - but they’re fewer and more subtle compared to how Jesus reveals the Father in the NT.
Here are a few solid examples:
1️⃣ Deuteronomy 32:6
2️⃣ Isaiah 63:16
3️⃣ Malachi 2:10
It’s all there - just not as fully unpacked until Jesus shows up and makes it crystal clear. The OT points to it, the NT explodes with it.
Let me know if you want a quick visual on how the Trinity shows up in the OT too - it’s wild. 👀
You should know by now that question need not be asked. Kek. Of course I do!
I take the Trinity literally, as in God actually had a Son before creating the world. I'm also into Michael Heiser's divine council stuff though I don't have a vast amount of study in it.
The way I see the Trinity, is to refer to God as a Family, not just one being. Idk if there's a name for this view
Late to this whole chain, but that's how I've always interpreted it. Jesus is both. He is the human incarnate of God himself. The man is not God but the spirit is.
This is why the self sacrifice is so significant. It's literally God showing the world he sacrificed himself for his children. Which is prophesied in Genesis as Latetotheshow highlighted. The initial moment of creation also foretell that this event would occur at some point on the timeline. This is how the fallen knew that Christ would be born at some point before as well.
I suppose the forms of matter example would apply here. God is all three forms: Gaseous, liquid, and solid. E.g. Water. It never ceases being H2O even considering evaporation, it's form of matter just fluctuates and adapts. Becoming something else while remaining the same on an elemental level.
I ran that last part through an AI, I knew that sounded familiar:
I don't strongly oppose it, I've organically considered similar things myself. However with further understanding I do think I lean towards the distinct persons. I think the Father and Jesus are different beings who share the same nature
The Garden of Gethsemane and the Euchurist are anwsers to a question you did not ask, but I thought you did. So I don’t want to spend a lot of time on questions I haven’t completely thought through or analyzed or in the Eurcharist case, I’ve already made up my mind. I will give you some preliminary answers on the Garden of Gethsemane, but I don’t wish to argue yet. I feel we are getting off track a little bit from the orginal argument of; Is there proof that Jesus is the son of Yhwh in the NT. Is Yhwh evil?
Jesus himself says (v.49) I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. If Jesus was being arrested for insurection, why did they not arrest him in the act of preaching “insurection” in the temple. Instead Judas leads them to a garden in the middle of the night when he’s preaching to no one, Why? Jesus is even questioning it. What were Jesus, John, James and Peter doing in the garden, why did they need to have the other disciples be on the look out? What the hell were they doing?
[John 18] It is stated that Jesus was being arrested for claiming to be the king of the jews, so I don’t argue that…yet.
Not sure what your point is here, young man is a word used describe lots of individuals.
2025-430=1595
Early Modern English (late 16th century) - The grammatical and orthographical conventions of literary English in the late 16th century and the 17th century are still very influential on modern Standard English. Most modern readers of English can understand texts written in the late phase of Early Modern English, such as the King James Bible and the works of William Shakespeare, and they have greatly influenced Modern English. Bad Argument. Its nonsense.
Im unorthodox what can I say, I question everything. You’re right it is a polar inversion of his supossed charter, In my opinion so is the Eucharist. So what is a scantaly clad young man doing in the garden at 4 am with Jesus while the other disciples are on look out? The question remains.
For the record I call Yhwh the DEVIL or EVIL not Satan. They”re different beings in my view.
I believe we were born into ignorance, sin is derived from ignorance. I don’t believe Jesus died for our sins, if he did there would be no sin,
This is your opinion.
How exactly did Jesus dying clamp down on further sinning, it’s currently rampant.
If Yhwh, is all powerful, why didn’t he destroy the “sinners” of Canaan, Amalek, ect. himself, instead of sending the Jews to die in battle. If he was concerned with them destorying themselves, he would have destroyed the sinners, as he did with Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Abrahamic religions are destorying themselves to this day. Bad Argument.
Yhwh is a jealous god, he only wants worship and praise, it’s not about sin.
[Exodus 34:14] Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Phthonus he is often compared and linked to the goddess of chaos and discord, Éris, for always causing the same effects as the goddess, using and abusing jealousy and envy to create fights between everyone. Furthermore, they are both Daemons.
Israel was not unique, The Code of Ur-Nammu is the oldest law code, The Sumerians also had The Instructions to Shuruppak, instructions for the up coming flood. Hell I’d argue that most of the OT Bible, if not all, are copies of the Sumerians tablets, not to mention the Indian text Manusmriti which dates around 1000-500bce, Jews were not unique.
Are you saying that, because Yhwh gave the Jews laws, his psycopathic transgressions can be excused?
“Tough Love Dad” , Kek. What would you call a father who would have his daughter raped for disobeying him, What would you call a father who would send his child into slavery for disobeying him, What would you call a father who would starve their child so severley that they would eat corpses for disobeying him….A Tough Love Dad? Really? I don’t think you are being intellectually honest. It seems to me you are normalizing Yhwh’s evilness. Rules for thee, but not for me…
Again having someone else do his dirty work. Did your father often have the neigborhood kids come over and kick your ass and steal your shit for punishment? What a horrible father if he didn’t, in your opinion.
Besides I thought we had free-will, free to chose Yhwh or not, free to worship golden calfs if we want. Obviously we don’t.
John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
This is not metaphor. I think this is a R.C.C. edit (the whole chapter). I don’t agree with your belief that Jesus wanted to “thin the herd”, that’s far reaching with no proof, when he could of just not invited them to Passover. He wouldn’t spend all that time preaching to aquire disciples only to scare them into leaving?
I understand what most people believe the Eurcharist is, I just don’t believe it, its a problem I have with the NT Jesus. I stand firm on this belief, the Eurcharist is wrong.
You a John Bolton fan? ;) I concede, you are correct that a muderer is the aggressor and a killer is a victim of agression. Generally an invading army are murderers and the people they are invading are killers. The Amalekites are the agressors, this does not explain the killing of the women and infants though, the infants were definitely not agressors they were completely innocent and I suspect neither were the women, they were both murdered. So I think it stands, Yhwh condoned murder. And you are condoning Yhwh’s transgressions.
They did, They moved them to Washington D.C. and Hollywood.
New York City, Michigan, Chicago, L.A., San Fransico, Seattle, Portland. School Shootings, Riots, Lawfare, Cancle Culture, Trans. Surgeries For Children, Child Trafficking , Child Slavery, Covid Lock Downs, D/S Releasing A Genetic Engineered Virus, Madatory Vacines That Kill You, Allowing Fentanyl, Homelessness Run Rampant ect., ect. Are you seriously trying to tell me mankind has matured? You are either being intellectualy dishonest or you are asleep. Bad Argument. I do think with Trump back in office it’s getting better, we’ll see.
Im still waiting for documented proof that Yhwh is Jesus’ father.
I don't know who you are talking to, for it certainly isn't me. You are picking fights over issues I have no desire to fight over. And I don't understand your point, since you don't bother to state it succinctly.
I tagged you because you were participating in this discourse a couple days ago and my reply addresses some points u/deadbeatnik made to your comments
I've been out of action for a few days and did not bother to memorize that discourse. But if you were addressing my opponent and not me, that shifts the picture and I apologize for taking it badly. We therefore agree on many points!
Thank you for taking up the cudgel. I'm not used to that.
Yeah I was. I should have probably put a small intro on top of that comment kek. I now see how it could be interpreted just seeing it pop into notifications with no context 😭 sorry about that.
The topic was whether YHWH was the devil or God.
I'd been meaning to get back to the discussion but the pope dying really threw me for a loop and there has been much to address on the heels of it!