Saw one video of the truck that ran into the building. The vehicle has two huge American flags in the back of the truck. FF? The church was destroyed by fire. As of the last report I saw there is unknown number of victims. The fire has made it more difficult to remove victims.
The shooter has been identified as a 40 year old Iraqi combat Veteran. So, things appear to be moving in that direction. They have to do something to balance the scales a little.
I don't know the specifics, but if there were classrooms with people in them on the second floor that were caught in the fire, then it's likely that the primary (ages 3-11) and youth group (12-17) classes were spread throughout those rooms. Depending on the Ward and building layout, primary classes can all be taught to one collective group, or they can be broken up by ages, or some mix of the two. Youth groups tend to be broken up by age groups. Either way, most of those classrooms were likely full of kids.
While there are adult classes, those tend to be more collective, and take less space, whereas the kids tend to be spread out more.
I am a Christian, they are Mormons. There is a difference. No, they should not be shot, of course not. Somehow though, I do not feel this is an "anti Christian" act. I am getting very sad about these false flags, though. Let us pray for our nation this Sabbath Sunday.
Over all mormons are good people, at least the ones I know. They just have a different Gospel and define Jesus differently than what the Bible teaches.
The LDS are Christians. We are a subsect of Christianity, and we still hold Christian values. "Mormon" isn't even the proper name. It's "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".
There's a difference, but not one that's so large as to suggest that an attack on an LDS church is not an "anti-Christian attack".
To be a Christian, one must believe in and confess the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed, which affirm core tenets of the faith, including belief in one God, Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died, rose, and will return, and the Holy Spirit.
Belief in these truths, particularly in Jesus as the Lord, is central to the Christian faith.
You are not a Christian. Smith said the Creeds were an abomination.
You can call yourself one but men call themselves women nowadays and that doesn't make it true either.
You do not believe the most basic tenets of the Christian faith.
While it may be true that many Christian denominations define orthodoxy by the early creeds, from an LDS perspective, Christianity is defined by following Jesus Christ himself. We believe in Him as the Son of God, the Savior, and as our Redeemer; we strive to live up to His gospel. Thatâs why we identify as Christian.
Itâs true we donât frame doctrine the same way the Nicene or Apostlesâ Creed does, especially regarding the Trinity. But difference in interpretation doesnât erase our faith in Christ. In fact, by your definition, only creedal churches would count as Christian, yet historically, the word has always described anyone who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord.
Except Mormons don't believe in one God. They believe that any man can become a god and create worlds. They get to marry all the women they want and their children will be the people of their new worlds. Three in one and one in three is pretty simple compared to the celestial kingdom.
Thatâs a distorted version of what Latter-day Saints actually believe. We do believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, united in purpose. That is our understanding of the Godhead. Teachings about exaltation (that we are children of God with eternal potential) are more complex than âany man can become a god and create worlds.â Theyâre rooted in the idea that through Christâs grace, faithful disciples can share in His glory, not in a caricature of polygamy and universe-making.
The Nicene and Apostlesâ Creeds are one way of framing Christian theology; Latter-day Saints frame it differently. That doesnât erase our faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Redeemer, which is why we still identify as Christians.
You self identify as christians, but are not included as christians by christendom any more than Jehovah Witnesses are. If you want to be included as christians start by putting Crosses on your churches.
That feels like a very superficial way to define Christianity. Symbols on a building donât determine whether someone is a disciple of Christ, faith in Him does. Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, crucified and resurrected for our salvation, which is the heart of Christianity.
Insisting that weâre not Christian because our churches donât display a cross isnât about theology, itâs about gatekeeping. Just think about what you're suggesting for a moment, and question whether your pride and judgement against the LDS for "self-identification as Christians" is something that Jesus himself would care about. Different traditions use different symbols, but discipleship to Christ has never been measured by architecture or the supposed approval of different sects of followers.
I agree on the polygamy issue. Their entire gospel rests on it. However over the years many mormon doctrines have changed in order to make the religion more palatable to christians. They whitewash their history, and they are able to curve their teachings by modern day prophecy as they claim their current leader to be a modern prophet. One big example of this is huge changes in their temple ceremonies from what they were originally taught was absolutely needed to enter the celestial kingdom of heaven. Many of those things are no longer required, but tithing is a steadfast requirement. The whole thing is just weird. I did enjoy the youth programs as a kid growing up in it. Scouting, sports, many activities.
Technically those who follow Christ are only known as âChristiansâ, first by the Gentiles at Antioch, according to the Bible. Itâs mentioned at least three times in the Bible that âweâ are known as Christians by others, not actually those who follow Christ. So really those who follow Christ are called Christ followers. Or Jesus followers. Christians, the term is made up from those who didnât follow Christ. And labeled those who did. Although itâs fine to call yourself one. Nothing wrong with it. It literally means those who follow Christ. But, someone who doesnât label as such, isnât wrong to say. Many of us are ignorant to this information. I myself was until recently.
Thatâs a fair note; the earliest use of the term âChristianâ was indeed outsiders in Antioch labeling Christâs followers. But the meaning was simple: those who follow Christ. By that definition, Latter-day Saints clearly fit, since everything in our faith is centered on Jesus as Savior and Redeemer.
So while different traditions frame doctrine differently, it doesnât make sense to deny the label altogether. If âChristianâ means a follower of Christ, then Latter-day Saints are Christians.
Yea it just reminded me when you say youâre not technically called Mormons, itâs a label you have by others. Same for those who follow Christ. From what I know yes LDS are as much âChristianâ as I am in my southern Baptist church. There are some beliefs I find interesting..something about Jesus being a brother to Lucifer? But the foundation of Jesus seems the same. Which is the most important imo. Godâs free gift. There are some thought that differ, but you seem to have salvation with Jesus the same as I do. and thatâs beautiful. I donât see you any different brother. We follow Christ. Thatâs whatâs important.
Iâm LDS as well, and itâs illogical - and really counter to what the church itself stands for - to suggest that calling yourself a Christian if youâre LDS is âabhorrent.â Our entire faith is built on Jesus Christ. His divinity, His atonement, His resurrection, and His role as Savior and Redeemer. How could it possibly be âabhorrentâ to follow Christ?
My age isnât relevant to the point Iâm making; pushing this line of argument just makes it sound like you're deflecting for points. That's not a rational point to this discussion.
The question here is whether itâs âabhorrentâ for Latter-day Saints to identify as Christians. Whatever era someone grew up in, the church has always officially been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and its teachings have always been centered on Christ as Savior and Redeemer. That hasnât changed before or after 1968.
Do I you believe Jesus is the spiritual brother of Satan? No Christian sect believes that nonsense.
That's part of your Orthodoxy.
You will never admit your religion is a lot like Islam, it centers around the teachings of a man, not those of God.
Thatâs a distortion of what we actually teach. The Latter-day Saint belief is that all of Godâs children - including us - are created by Him with agency, and that Christ is uniquely divine as the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, our Savior and Redeemer. His role is utterly distinct and central, and to equate our faith with Islam or dismiss it as âcentered on a manâ ignores the reality that everything in our doctrine points to Jesus Christ as the source of salvation.
You donât have to agree with our theology, but mischaracterizing it doesnât make your point stronger, it just takes the focus away from the very Christ-centered discipleship we actually live.
The difference is they worship a different Jesus than the one that the Bible describes. They work hard at living Christian principles but the gospel they follow puts them into the realm of a non-christian cult. They are simply a counterfeit christian church. They act like christians, they sound like christians, they look like christians, and most live a christian like life. In fact many out christian the Christians. They are dependent on works for their salvation. I simply pray that God forgives them of not fully understanding who Jesus is, but desiring to please him. I hope to see them in heaven, assuming I make it there myself.
Honestly, framing the Latter Day Saints as âcounterfeitâ or implying that "we donât know the real Jesus" just comes across as dismissive, and even sanctimonious. LDS members arenât pretending to be Christian, our teachings sincerely believe in and strive to follow Jesus Christ as Savior. We may interpret His nature and teachings differently than creedal traditions, but differences in doctrine donât erase the reality of our discipleship.
Itâs worth remembering that Christ Himself taught us to recognize His followers âby their fruits.â I appreciate your acknowledgment that the Latter Day Saints sincerely try to live by Christian values, but if you can acknowledge that many do so, then perhaps itâs more constructive to respect that shared devotion rather than it is to attempt to dismiss our faith as mere imitation. We can disagree on theology without questioning each otherâs sincerity or relationship with Christ.
I don't doubt your sincerity one bit. I just happen to think you worship a different Jesus than the one presented in the Bible. I just pray that God is forgiving to those that are deceived, be it you or me. As for me I hang my salvation on confessing that Christ is God in human flesh who came to earth to sacrifice himself in punishment for my sins, who died and resurrected beating death. In doing so He has full authority to forgive sin as He paid the price for all those who believe in Him and accept His sacrifice.
I appreciate you clarifying that you donât doubt our sincerity. Thatâs important, because sincerity and devotion to Christ are at the heart of this discussion. Where we differ is in the framing; you describe our beliefs as worshipping âa different Jesus,â while from our side, we see ourselves worshipping the same Jesus of the New Testament. Born of Mary, crucified, resurrected, and the source of salvation, and though we understand His nature and role differently than creedal Christianity does. I'm not sure where the idea that "we worship a different Jesus Christ" comes from, but the claim is ill-founded.
You emphasize salvation through confessing Christ as God incarnate and His atonement for sin. We affirm that too, while also believing that discipleship involves making covenants, repenting, and striving to live His commandments. We see grace and works not as competing, but as intertwined. His sacrifice makes salvation possible, and our effort is how we respond to His grace.
I respect your conviction, and I ask for the same respect in return. Our differences in theology are real, but they donât erase our devotion to Jesus Christ.
You need to do some research on smith and young. Smith married a 12 year old girl. Young performed marriages between 8 year olds and old men. The temple ceremony with the annoitings and the oaths is sick. There are many good Mormons. Great, hardworking people, but when you get into the history and doctrine, it's problematic.
May I recommend exmormon.org. all info taken from original documents.
Historical claims about early leaders can be debated, but itâs worth noting that a lot of what circulates online is presented without context or balance. The church has always encouraged members to study its history, and there are resources like the Joseph Smith Papers and the official Gospel Topics Essays that deal directly with the harder questions in transparent ways.
On terminology: youâre right that âMormonâ has been used by both outsiders and members for a long time, and has even appeared in official materials. But it was never the formal name of the church, which since 1838 has been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thatâs why President Nelson asked in 2018 that we move away from the nickname and use the full name, to keep the focus on Christ.
There are complex parts of history and doctrine, but none of that changes the reality that the LDS faith is centered on Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His gospel.
Original sources do exist, and thatâs exactly why projects like the Joseph Smith Papers make them available in full. But interpretation of those documents is always open to debate. Context matters, and simply pointing to critical summaries on exmormon.org isnât the same thing as reading the records themselves.
Reducing everything about the church to âitâs all problematicâ misses the heart of what it actually teaches. The teachings are centered on faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repentance, covenants, and striving to follow Him. Thatâs what defines Latter-day Saint discipleship, even while we acknowledge our history has complex and difficult chapters.
Joseph Smith never called the church âMormon.â When he organized it in 1830, it was The Church of Christ, and by 1838 it became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The nickname âMormonâ came from outsiders because of the Book of Mormon. While members sometimes adopted the term informally, it was never the official name.
In fact, in 2018 President Russell M. Nelson specifically asked that we no longer use âMormonâ to describe the church, since the proper name centers on Jesus Christ. So while people still say it casually, itâs not what we call ourselves and never has been our formal name.
I have my great grandfather's journal. They called themselves Mormons in 1840's. I have official church issued documents that uses the word mormon in naming the church.
And they became so many there was a great battle in northern new York where 30,000 died. Interestingly there's not one shred of physical evidence left behind. Only golden plates which Joseph picked up and ran home with and translated them by looking into his hat. Gold is heavy. The plates were taken away by angels. And when God and Jesus appeared, you will be happy to know they had feet (that detail was presented to me as a proof).
Oh, and lehi and Nephi came from the red sea to america in a submarine.
I know what the name is. I think religious freedom is an important American ideal. I let the Bible and Gospel instruct me, I find other books of faith interesting reading when I am curious to understand peoples motives,, culture, etc. I do not consider those other books as truth. My Christianity does not require any ritual except baptism. The Holy Spirit of Christ within me, which is kept alive through prayer and faith, My spiritual progression depends on my standing with God in Christ, and worship of God the Father. Not on my standing within a mortar and brick structure called a temple. I use the term Mormon, because you all walk around with the book of Mormon. Jesus broke bread with the people, all people, inviting them to come to him, and teaching them that the only way to the Father was through him, unlike the Pharisees, who had special laws and practices, observed strictly. Now, in a broad sense, we can say that all murder is anti Christian, as it goes against the teachings of Christ and the commandments of God
I can appreciate your perspective and the emphasis you place on Christ and personal faith. That being said, from an LDS standpoint, we also center our lives on Jesus Christ; His divinity, His atonement, and His role as Savior. Thatâs why the full name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Youâre right that we study more than just the Bible, but we donât see those scriptures as a replacement. Rather, theyâre additional witnesses of Christ. Our temples and ordinances arenât meant to create barriers like the Pharisees, but to help us draw closer to God through covenants with Him.
Even if we understand some doctrines differently, our values are rooted in Christâs teachings. So when an LDS church is attacked, itâs not separate from Christianity, itâs still an attack on people who worship and follow Christ.
Very well said. Thanks for that. I wish there were more awake members such as yourself. I would go to church more often if more of the members were awake. I'm still angry with the church's leadership for rolling over for the government during Covid. I didn't attend church the whole time that masks were required. I really wanted deep in my heart for the LDS church to be the ONE church to stand up against the evil government at the time.
The "difference in doctrines" is enormous, from the get go. Yes, if you confess that Christ died for your salvation, is essential. But to state that God was once a human being with flesh and bones, is heresy, you must know that. When Christ is on the cross, crucified between two criminals, he states in the Gospel, that truly these men that die with him will join him in Paradise. Not some special place exalted for special people, but in Paradise with HIM, because they recognized who he was. One baptism is what Christians believe in, but the Mormon church requires another baptism, as a member of The Church of the Latter Day Saints, they disregard the baptism that other Christians have, when it is clear that one is baptized once, to become Christs own.If you are a member of another sect, I would see that as defining oneself as a Lutheran, or Baptist, or Evangelical, or Catholic, or Methodist. Because all of those religious denominations follow the same Gospel, some have add ons, like the Roman Catholics, which, in maturity into Christ, we grow to see as not essential. A woman who chooses to never marry, for whatever reason, who remains childless and celibate, but devotes herself to Christ, is not less than a woman who has 12 children, yet Mormons believe that she is. What of the woman who has lived a life of sin, and repents, and chooses this lifestyle? She has saved her soul, and is loved by Christ as much as the mama with a brood. A man who has lived a debauched life, mis led by Satan, yet when old, accepts Jesus as his savior and one with God, is loved no less than the devout and pious man. Jesus has said himself, the first will become last, and the last will become first. Regardless, those poor people who lost their lives today, because of Satan, the deceiver, who turned a mans heart dark with evil, will see their savior in Paradise, may they have peace and glory with him. Everything I know about Mormonism, and I had a step sister who converted, is that it preaches false doctrine, but lets its members believe that they are better than other Christians, and that there will be more spirit children born from a married couple. Jesus, when asked if a man marries and widows 3 times, who would be his wife in heaven, says this that there is no marraige in heaven, that those roles and relationships are earthly, and we will be free of them, our relationship with God, and all other Christians, will be our future in the Lord God. We will be like Angels. Matthew 22 30. That is not to put down earthly marraige, but it disputes the Mormon teaching of procreation to populate other realms of existence. To me, so much of that religion, that was set down by Joseph Smith, was justification for his behavior, and the behavior of others in that sect, to have multiple wives, some of them handed over and traded as children. There are fundamentalist Mormon sects going on today who get away with that practice, and they believe they are the one true Faith.
That's a lot of text to throw out at once to just repeat the point that you see Latter-day Saint doctrine as âfalseâ or âheretical.â From our perspective, those differences are real, but they donât erase our discipleship of Christ. Our entire faith is centered on Him: His divinity, atonement, resurrection, and role as Savior and Redeemer.
On baptism and ordinances, we believe they matter because Christ himself taught and commanded them. They arenât about being âbetter thanâ other Christians, but about keeping covenants with God and drawing closer to Him. And while plural marriage was practiced in the 19th century, it wasnât instituted for the sake of bigamy, it was tied to literal survival, as early Saints were repeatedly driven from their homes and lands until they had to flee so far west that no one could easily follow. They had to be more reliant on each other to survive. The mainstream LDS Church ended that practice more than 130 years ago, and what you describe with child marriages belongs to fundamentalist sects that the Church has long condemned.
You may not accept our theology, but burying the conversation under a wall of accusations doesnât change the fact that Latter-day Saints worship and follow Jesus Christ. That is why we call ourselves Christian, regardless of your opinions on the matter.
I have been briefed on the horrendous shooting that took place at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Grand Blanc, Michigan. The FBI was immediately on scene, and will be leading the Federal Investigation, and providing full support to State and Local Officials. The suspect is dead, but there is still a lot to learn. This appears to be yet another targeted attack on Christians in the United States of America. The Trump Administration will keep the Public posted, as we always do. In the meantime, PRAY for the victims, and their families. THIS EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE IN OUR COUNTRY MUST END, IMMEDIATELY!
The fbi showed up pretty quickly from the report I saw., yet Pam Bondi was getting updates from someone before they were on scene? Plus this judge gets out of his truck and starts shooting victims. The author of the story has some inconsistencies within it. Oh well, in the heat of the moment small details get misplaced.
I bet when the perp is named he will be a White Nationalist who had been on a mind altering drug for years, had spent time in the military, overseas, and suffers from PTSD. Left a cryptic message scrawled on wrinkled paper and loved going to the shooting range.
And another one. Three in less then 24 hours. First, a guy pulled up to a dockside restaurant in a boat in NC and opened fire. Then this in Grand Blanc and now GWP has another article up of a mass shooter in an Indian Casino in Texas.
We are in the storm people. Head on a swivel. Probably cancel those plans to the HS game or the farmers market. Soft targets are soft targets. These are MK slaves. Next come the professionals let in at the border by Biden in small terrorist cells hitting infrastructure and harder targets like major sporting events.
About 10 years ago I said they wouldn't be able to provoke the Christians to start their CW and would start targeting churches and our faith leaders for their mass shooting events.
Please educate yourselves and carry responsibility.
Join your local pew pew clubs.
Protect your families and communities.
Hmmmm
Like They ve been tracking him for years??
Looked up his employee number.
Always suspicious. But i don't know how long immediately is. I wonder if they got there before or after local PD.
Saw one video of the truck that ran into the building. The vehicle has two huge American flags in the back of the truck. FF? The church was destroyed by fire. As of the last report I saw there is unknown number of victims. The fire has made it more difficult to remove victims.
The left are evolving. They know the world knows they commit the vast majority of violence. They are trying to make it look like MAGA did it.
The shooter has been identified as a 40 year old Iraqi combat Veteran. So, things appear to be moving in that direction. They have to do something to balance the scales a little.
I don't know the specifics, but if there were classrooms with people in them on the second floor that were caught in the fire, then it's likely that the primary (ages 3-11) and youth group (12-17) classes were spread throughout those rooms. Depending on the Ward and building layout, primary classes can all be taught to one collective group, or they can be broken up by ages, or some mix of the two. Youth groups tend to be broken up by age groups. Either way, most of those classrooms were likely full of kids.
While there are adult classes, those tend to be more collective, and take less space, whereas the kids tend to be spread out more.
Thank you for the additional info. So sad. Just heard there are so far 3 dead and several in the hospital. One is critical while the rest are stable.
You sound like a church member!
Well... yes. It's not a problem, is it?
No, it's not a problem
Ah Ha! Takes one to know one! đ
Yeah?
I am a Christian, they are Mormons. There is a difference. No, they should not be shot, of course not. Somehow though, I do not feel this is an "anti Christian" act. I am getting very sad about these false flags, though. Let us pray for our nation this Sabbath Sunday.
I think there is a great theological difference between Christians and Mormons, but Mormons vote Trump so they are my ally.
I want to live in an America where everyone has the freedom to worship in peace.
Over all mormons are good people, at least the ones I know. They just have a different Gospel and define Jesus differently than what the Bible teaches.
The LDS are Christians. We are a subsect of Christianity, and we still hold Christian values. "Mormon" isn't even the proper name. It's "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".
There's a difference, but not one that's so large as to suggest that an attack on an LDS church is not an "anti-Christian attack".
To be a Christian, one must believe in and confess the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed, which affirm core tenets of the faith, including belief in one God, Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died, rose, and will return, and the Holy Spirit.
Belief in these truths, particularly in Jesus as the Lord, is central to the Christian faith.
You are not a Christian. Smith said the Creeds were an abomination.
You can call yourself one but men call themselves women nowadays and that doesn't make it true either.
You do not believe the most basic tenets of the Christian faith.
While it may be true that many Christian denominations define orthodoxy by the early creeds, from an LDS perspective, Christianity is defined by following Jesus Christ himself. We believe in Him as the Son of God, the Savior, and as our Redeemer; we strive to live up to His gospel. Thatâs why we identify as Christian.
Itâs true we donât frame doctrine the same way the Nicene or Apostlesâ Creed does, especially regarding the Trinity. But difference in interpretation doesnât erase our faith in Christ. In fact, by your definition, only creedal churches would count as Christian, yet historically, the word has always described anyone who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord.
Except Mormons don't believe in one God. They believe that any man can become a god and create worlds. They get to marry all the women they want and their children will be the people of their new worlds. Three in one and one in three is pretty simple compared to the celestial kingdom.
Thatâs a distorted version of what Latter-day Saints actually believe. We do believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, united in purpose. That is our understanding of the Godhead. Teachings about exaltation (that we are children of God with eternal potential) are more complex than âany man can become a god and create worlds.â Theyâre rooted in the idea that through Christâs grace, faithful disciples can share in His glory, not in a caricature of polygamy and universe-making.
The Nicene and Apostlesâ Creeds are one way of framing Christian theology; Latter-day Saints frame it differently. That doesnât erase our faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Redeemer, which is why we still identify as Christians.
You self identify as christians, but are not included as christians by christendom any more than Jehovah Witnesses are. If you want to be included as christians start by putting Crosses on your churches.
That feels like a very superficial way to define Christianity. Symbols on a building donât determine whether someone is a disciple of Christ, faith in Him does. Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, crucified and resurrected for our salvation, which is the heart of Christianity.
Insisting that weâre not Christian because our churches donât display a cross isnât about theology, itâs about gatekeeping. Just think about what you're suggesting for a moment, and question whether your pride and judgement against the LDS for "self-identification as Christians" is something that Jesus himself would care about. Different traditions use different symbols, but discipleship to Christ has never been measured by architecture or the supposed approval of different sects of followers.
Oh wow. That's a really huge change from what we were taught. That was the reason for polygamy.
I agree on the polygamy issue. Their entire gospel rests on it. However over the years many mormon doctrines have changed in order to make the religion more palatable to christians. They whitewash their history, and they are able to curve their teachings by modern day prophecy as they claim their current leader to be a modern prophet. One big example of this is huge changes in their temple ceremonies from what they were originally taught was absolutely needed to enter the celestial kingdom of heaven. Many of those things are no longer required, but tithing is a steadfast requirement. The whole thing is just weird. I did enjoy the youth programs as a kid growing up in it. Scouting, sports, many activities.
Technically those who follow Christ are only known as âChristiansâ, first by the Gentiles at Antioch, according to the Bible. Itâs mentioned at least three times in the Bible that âweâ are known as Christians by others, not actually those who follow Christ. So really those who follow Christ are called Christ followers. Or Jesus followers. Christians, the term is made up from those who didnât follow Christ. And labeled those who did. Although itâs fine to call yourself one. Nothing wrong with it. It literally means those who follow Christ. But, someone who doesnât label as such, isnât wrong to say. Many of us are ignorant to this information. I myself was until recently.
Thatâs a fair note; the earliest use of the term âChristianâ was indeed outsiders in Antioch labeling Christâs followers. But the meaning was simple: those who follow Christ. By that definition, Latter-day Saints clearly fit, since everything in our faith is centered on Jesus as Savior and Redeemer.
So while different traditions frame doctrine differently, it doesnât make sense to deny the label altogether. If âChristianâ means a follower of Christ, then Latter-day Saints are Christians.
Yea it just reminded me when you say youâre not technically called Mormons, itâs a label you have by others. Same for those who follow Christ. From what I know yes LDS are as much âChristianâ as I am in my southern Baptist church. There are some beliefs I find interesting..something about Jesus being a brother to Lucifer? But the foundation of Jesus seems the same. Which is the most important imo. Godâs free gift. There are some thought that differ, but you seem to have salvation with Jesus the same as I do. and thatâs beautiful. I donât see you any different brother. We follow Christ. Thatâs whatâs important.
When I grew up in the mormon church we never identified as Christian. Never. Doing so was as abhorrent as the cross.
Iâm LDS as well, and itâs illogical - and really counter to what the church itself stands for - to suggest that calling yourself a Christian if youâre LDS is âabhorrent.â Our entire faith is built on Jesus Christ. His divinity, His atonement, His resurrection, and His role as Savior and Redeemer. How could it possibly be âabhorrentâ to follow Christ?
How old are you? I know what I was taught, pre 1968.
My age isnât relevant to the point Iâm making; pushing this line of argument just makes it sound like you're deflecting for points. That's not a rational point to this discussion.
The question here is whether itâs âabhorrentâ for Latter-day Saints to identify as Christians. Whatever era someone grew up in, the church has always officially been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and its teachings have always been centered on Christ as Savior and Redeemer. That hasnât changed before or after 1968.
Do I you believe Jesus is the spiritual brother of Satan? No Christian sect believes that nonsense. That's part of your Orthodoxy. You will never admit your religion is a lot like Islam, it centers around the teachings of a man, not those of God.
Thatâs a distortion of what we actually teach. The Latter-day Saint belief is that all of Godâs children - including us - are created by Him with agency, and that Christ is uniquely divine as the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, our Savior and Redeemer. His role is utterly distinct and central, and to equate our faith with Islam or dismiss it as âcentered on a manâ ignores the reality that everything in our doctrine points to Jesus Christ as the source of salvation.
You donât have to agree with our theology, but mischaracterizing it doesnât make your point stronger, it just takes the focus away from the very Christ-centered discipleship we actually live.
The difference is they worship a different Jesus than the one that the Bible describes. They work hard at living Christian principles but the gospel they follow puts them into the realm of a non-christian cult. They are simply a counterfeit christian church. They act like christians, they sound like christians, they look like christians, and most live a christian like life. In fact many out christian the Christians. They are dependent on works for their salvation. I simply pray that God forgives them of not fully understanding who Jesus is, but desiring to please him. I hope to see them in heaven, assuming I make it there myself.
Honestly, framing the Latter Day Saints as âcounterfeitâ or implying that "we donât know the real Jesus" just comes across as dismissive, and even sanctimonious. LDS members arenât pretending to be Christian, our teachings sincerely believe in and strive to follow Jesus Christ as Savior. We may interpret His nature and teachings differently than creedal traditions, but differences in doctrine donât erase the reality of our discipleship.
Itâs worth remembering that Christ Himself taught us to recognize His followers âby their fruits.â I appreciate your acknowledgment that the Latter Day Saints sincerely try to live by Christian values, but if you can acknowledge that many do so, then perhaps itâs more constructive to respect that shared devotion rather than it is to attempt to dismiss our faith as mere imitation. We can disagree on theology without questioning each otherâs sincerity or relationship with Christ.
I don't doubt your sincerity one bit. I just happen to think you worship a different Jesus than the one presented in the Bible. I just pray that God is forgiving to those that are deceived, be it you or me. As for me I hang my salvation on confessing that Christ is God in human flesh who came to earth to sacrifice himself in punishment for my sins, who died and resurrected beating death. In doing so He has full authority to forgive sin as He paid the price for all those who believe in Him and accept His sacrifice.
I appreciate you clarifying that you donât doubt our sincerity. Thatâs important, because sincerity and devotion to Christ are at the heart of this discussion. Where we differ is in the framing; you describe our beliefs as worshipping âa different Jesus,â while from our side, we see ourselves worshipping the same Jesus of the New Testament. Born of Mary, crucified, resurrected, and the source of salvation, and though we understand His nature and role differently than creedal Christianity does. I'm not sure where the idea that "we worship a different Jesus Christ" comes from, but the claim is ill-founded.
You emphasize salvation through confessing Christ as God incarnate and His atonement for sin. We affirm that too, while also believing that discipleship involves making covenants, repenting, and striving to live His commandments. We see grace and works not as competing, but as intertwined. His sacrifice makes salvation possible, and our effort is how we respond to His grace.
I respect your conviction, and I ask for the same respect in return. Our differences in theology are real, but they donât erase our devotion to Jesus Christ.
You got it! MAGA on. I do have mormon friends still, we just don't discuss theology. I want to keep them as friends.
You need to do some research on smith and young. Smith married a 12 year old girl. Young performed marriages between 8 year olds and old men. The temple ceremony with the annoitings and the oaths is sick. There are many good Mormons. Great, hardworking people, but when you get into the history and doctrine, it's problematic.
May I recommend exmormon.org. all info taken from original documents.
Historical claims about early leaders can be debated, but itâs worth noting that a lot of what circulates online is presented without context or balance. The church has always encouraged members to study its history, and there are resources like the Joseph Smith Papers and the official Gospel Topics Essays that deal directly with the harder questions in transparent ways.
On terminology: youâre right that âMormonâ has been used by both outsiders and members for a long time, and has even appeared in official materials. But it was never the formal name of the church, which since 1838 has been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thatâs why President Nelson asked in 2018 that we move away from the nickname and use the full name, to keep the focus on Christ.
There are complex parts of history and doctrine, but none of that changes the reality that the LDS faith is centered on Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His gospel.
Well, actually they can't be debated. It's all there in their own words and in the overwhelming words of the people who lived it.
Original sources do exist, and thatâs exactly why projects like the Joseph Smith Papers make them available in full. But interpretation of those documents is always open to debate. Context matters, and simply pointing to critical summaries on exmormon.org isnât the same thing as reading the records themselves.
Reducing everything about the church to âitâs all problematicâ misses the heart of what it actually teaches. The teachings are centered on faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repentance, covenants, and striving to follow Him. Thatâs what defines Latter-day Saint discipleship, even while we acknowledge our history has complex and difficult chapters.
Joseph Smith called his church mormon, after the book of.
Joseph Smith never called the church âMormon.â When he organized it in 1830, it was The Church of Christ, and by 1838 it became The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The nickname âMormonâ came from outsiders because of the Book of Mormon. While members sometimes adopted the term informally, it was never the official name.
In fact, in 2018 President Russell M. Nelson specifically asked that we no longer use âMormonâ to describe the church, since the proper name centers on Jesus Christ. So while people still say it casually, itâs not what we call ourselves and never has been our formal name.
I have my great grandfather's journal. They called themselves Mormons in 1840's. I have official church issued documents that uses the word mormon in naming the church.
Which is written about a family that left Jerusalem and went to America in 600BC.
And they became so many there was a great battle in northern new York where 30,000 died. Interestingly there's not one shred of physical evidence left behind. Only golden plates which Joseph picked up and ran home with and translated them by looking into his hat. Gold is heavy. The plates were taken away by angels. And when God and Jesus appeared, you will be happy to know they had feet (that detail was presented to me as a proof).
Oh, and lehi and Nephi came from the red sea to america in a submarine.
I know what the name is. I think religious freedom is an important American ideal. I let the Bible and Gospel instruct me, I find other books of faith interesting reading when I am curious to understand peoples motives,, culture, etc. I do not consider those other books as truth. My Christianity does not require any ritual except baptism. The Holy Spirit of Christ within me, which is kept alive through prayer and faith, My spiritual progression depends on my standing with God in Christ, and worship of God the Father. Not on my standing within a mortar and brick structure called a temple. I use the term Mormon, because you all walk around with the book of Mormon. Jesus broke bread with the people, all people, inviting them to come to him, and teaching them that the only way to the Father was through him, unlike the Pharisees, who had special laws and practices, observed strictly. Now, in a broad sense, we can say that all murder is anti Christian, as it goes against the teachings of Christ and the commandments of God
I can appreciate your perspective and the emphasis you place on Christ and personal faith. That being said, from an LDS standpoint, we also center our lives on Jesus Christ; His divinity, His atonement, and His role as Savior. Thatâs why the full name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Youâre right that we study more than just the Bible, but we donât see those scriptures as a replacement. Rather, theyâre additional witnesses of Christ. Our temples and ordinances arenât meant to create barriers like the Pharisees, but to help us draw closer to God through covenants with Him.
Even if we understand some doctrines differently, our values are rooted in Christâs teachings. So when an LDS church is attacked, itâs not separate from Christianity, itâs still an attack on people who worship and follow Christ.
Very well said. Thanks for that. I wish there were more awake members such as yourself. I would go to church more often if more of the members were awake. I'm still angry with the church's leadership for rolling over for the government during Covid. I didn't attend church the whole time that masks were required. I really wanted deep in my heart for the LDS church to be the ONE church to stand up against the evil government at the time.
The "difference in doctrines" is enormous, from the get go. Yes, if you confess that Christ died for your salvation, is essential. But to state that God was once a human being with flesh and bones, is heresy, you must know that. When Christ is on the cross, crucified between two criminals, he states in the Gospel, that truly these men that die with him will join him in Paradise. Not some special place exalted for special people, but in Paradise with HIM, because they recognized who he was. One baptism is what Christians believe in, but the Mormon church requires another baptism, as a member of The Church of the Latter Day Saints, they disregard the baptism that other Christians have, when it is clear that one is baptized once, to become Christs own.If you are a member of another sect, I would see that as defining oneself as a Lutheran, or Baptist, or Evangelical, or Catholic, or Methodist. Because all of those religious denominations follow the same Gospel, some have add ons, like the Roman Catholics, which, in maturity into Christ, we grow to see as not essential. A woman who chooses to never marry, for whatever reason, who remains childless and celibate, but devotes herself to Christ, is not less than a woman who has 12 children, yet Mormons believe that she is. What of the woman who has lived a life of sin, and repents, and chooses this lifestyle? She has saved her soul, and is loved by Christ as much as the mama with a brood. A man who has lived a debauched life, mis led by Satan, yet when old, accepts Jesus as his savior and one with God, is loved no less than the devout and pious man. Jesus has said himself, the first will become last, and the last will become first. Regardless, those poor people who lost their lives today, because of Satan, the deceiver, who turned a mans heart dark with evil, will see their savior in Paradise, may they have peace and glory with him. Everything I know about Mormonism, and I had a step sister who converted, is that it preaches false doctrine, but lets its members believe that they are better than other Christians, and that there will be more spirit children born from a married couple. Jesus, when asked if a man marries and widows 3 times, who would be his wife in heaven, says this that there is no marraige in heaven, that those roles and relationships are earthly, and we will be free of them, our relationship with God, and all other Christians, will be our future in the Lord God. We will be like Angels. Matthew 22 30. That is not to put down earthly marraige, but it disputes the Mormon teaching of procreation to populate other realms of existence. To me, so much of that religion, that was set down by Joseph Smith, was justification for his behavior, and the behavior of others in that sect, to have multiple wives, some of them handed over and traded as children. There are fundamentalist Mormon sects going on today who get away with that practice, and they believe they are the one true Faith.
That's a lot of text to throw out at once to just repeat the point that you see Latter-day Saint doctrine as âfalseâ or âheretical.â From our perspective, those differences are real, but they donât erase our discipleship of Christ. Our entire faith is centered on Him: His divinity, atonement, resurrection, and role as Savior and Redeemer.
On baptism and ordinances, we believe they matter because Christ himself taught and commanded them. They arenât about being âbetter thanâ other Christians, but about keeping covenants with God and drawing closer to Him. And while plural marriage was practiced in the 19th century, it wasnât instituted for the sake of bigamy, it was tied to literal survival, as early Saints were repeatedly driven from their homes and lands until they had to flee so far west that no one could easily follow. They had to be more reliant on each other to survive. The mainstream LDS Church ended that practice more than 130 years ago, and what you describe with child marriages belongs to fundamentalist sects that the Church has long condemned.
You may not accept our theology, but burying the conversation under a wall of accusations doesnât change the fact that Latter-day Saints worship and follow Jesus Christ. That is why we call ourselves Christian, regardless of your opinions on the matter.
Do the loonies know the difference? I don't know the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims for example.
You're about as wrong as wrong gets. Nobody is more Christian than the Mormons. Get real.
I have been briefed on the horrendous shooting that took place at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Grand Blanc, Michigan. The FBI was immediately on scene, and will be leading the Federal Investigation, and providing full support to State and Local Officials. The suspect is dead, but there is still a lot to learn. This appears to be yet another targeted attack on Christians in the United States of America. The Trump Administration will keep the Public posted, as we always do. In the meantime, PRAY for the victims, and their families. THIS EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE IN OUR COUNTRY MUST END, IMMEDIATELY!
https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/115283020712432544
On qagg - https://qagg.news/?read=TT29546
I have to disagree with Trump on this one, because the Mormon religion isn't Christianity in my opinion. It's highly heretical.
The fbi showed up pretty quickly from the report I saw., yet Pam Bondi was getting updates from someone before they were on scene? Plus this judge gets out of his truck and starts shooting victims. The author of the story has some inconsistencies within it. Oh well, in the heat of the moment small details get misplaced.
I bet when the perp is named he will be a White Nationalist who had been on a mind altering drug for years, had spent time in the military, overseas, and suffers from PTSD. Left a cryptic message scrawled on wrinkled paper and loved going to the shooting range.
I just wonder why pick on mormons? Something doesn't fit. Was he excommunicated or something? Hopefully we get the full story.
Another leftist terrorist attack.
Mormons are NOT Christians.
After reading the 'news' reports, I noticed they're very careful not to say anything about the shooter ....
And another one. Three in less then 24 hours. First, a guy pulled up to a dockside restaurant in a boat in NC and opened fire. Then this in Grand Blanc and now GWP has another article up of a mass shooter in an Indian Casino in Texas.
We are in the storm people. Head on a swivel. Probably cancel those plans to the HS game or the farmers market. Soft targets are soft targets. These are MK slaves. Next come the professionals let in at the border by Biden in small terrorist cells hitting infrastructure and harder targets like major sporting events.
About 10 years ago I said they wouldn't be able to provoke the Christians to start their CW and would start targeting churches and our faith leaders for their mass shooting events.
Please educate yourselves and carry responsibility. Join your local pew pew clubs. Protect your families and communities.
We have a Christan Renaissance and suddenly... a false flag attack by heat seems a MAGA supporter with American flags etc? This makes no sense.
Mooj shooter?
Make Islam a terrorist organization. Nothing holy about it!!
Mr. President, we are going to defend ourselves. There are going to be dead mentally disturbed commies.