Sorry guys this is completely unfair without the context of the times.
Remember we also gave Stingers to the Mujahadeen that included Bin Ladin, because they were fighting the Russians who had invaded Afghanistan. This was the middle of the Col War.
The Communists had staged a takeover in Nicaragua with Daneal Ortega playing the part of Castro. A democrat Congress that opposed anything Reagan tried to do, much like today with the Dems and Trump, passed a ban on aiding the Contras - the folks fighting the Communist Sandanistas in Nicaragua.
Reagan, in order to get around the ban authorized North to sell weapons to both sides in the Iran - Iraq war. The logic, correctly, being the more of them dead on both sides the better for us. The money generated by the arms sales was then used to buy munitions for the Contras, bypassing Congress. A brilliant plan in all senses.
For people too young to have lived through the Cold War, I dare say the majority here, you simply can not use today as a reference point to judge what went on back then. I remember Sputnik being launched, and the threat that posed to the US (the Russians had the ability to drop a nuke on the US form orbit. I remember doing duck and cover drills in elementary school. I remember basements in apartment houses being stocked with Civil Defense supplies in case of a nuclear war.
No sorry guys using today's standards to judge yesterday's actions without the context of yesterday's reality is foolish and akin to saying that white people today should pay reparations to black folks because of slavery. In other words, it's bullshit.
I remember I had a book full of quotes as reading material for the guest bathroom, (this was pre smart phone days) and people came over for beers and bbq one night. Well, there was an older guy, one of my friends' dad who was a literal hippie, who used the bathroom and apparently read some of the book. He came out of the bathroom with a sour look on his face. He said, "Did you know Lincoln was racist?" We had puzzled looks on our faces. He says,"Yeah, he said, "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races"".
So he came to my function thinking Lincoln was great, but his view shifted that night. We tried to tell him it was different times, man, but he wouldn't listen. I heard recently that he and his son had a falling out over Trump and they aren't speaking to each other.
There was no need to get involved with Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, or Nicaragua. Cold War or not, this was after Korea and Vietnam. The US government should’ve learned some lessons by the 1980s.
Don't tell me there was no reason to oppose them in Afghanistan. And we were trying to stop Nicaragua from becomming Cuba 2 for a damn good reason.
What lessons should we have learned ? The only lesson from Vietnam we should have learned we have learned. Don't fight a half assed war where you give back terrain you have won time and time again. If you fight, fight to win like we are now. I opposed the Vietnam war because we weren't fighting to win, we were fighting for a stalemate.
And when my number came up I served. How about yourself ?
The Soviets never did launch nukes at us. Their communism fell because it was economically and socially unsustainable, not because of American boondoggles into the third world.
I’m opposed to communism on the moral grounds that it requires government coercion of labor. The moral begets the practical, and people respond to government violence by dragging their feet economically, so the whole thing eventually becomes impractical. If we really dislike communism, one thing we can do is wait for it to implode. No need to add to the violence. It was special interests within the military industrial complex who told you that violence was the correct response.
I opposed the Vietnam war because we weren't fighting to win, we were fighting for a stalemate.
And when my number came up I served. How about yourself ?“
Thank you for your service. I wasn’t born yet.
How did you oppose the war?
In the Ken Burns doc, some of the interviewed Vietnam War veterans who had previously considered being conscientious objectors gave some interesting views on what they really thought would have been the courageous and dutiful moves.
You grew up with only four tv channels, plenty of exposure to CIA fear-mongering, and no internet to debunk it. You have my sympathy.
Your welcome. And thank you.
Demonstrations. I was in all of the Moratoriums in DC and probably 100 or more demonstrations in NYC from 67-71. Got stuff dropped on us and the crap beat out of us by the construction workers who were building the World Trade Center.
I knew the Berrigan brothers, a pair of Catholic priests who were major players in the antiwar movement. I could easily have gotten a CO if I had wanted it. But I wasn't a conscientious objector, I objected to the way the war was being fought not to us fighting it. I was never part of the movement that chanted "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh NLF is going to win." Those people were very few and were despised by the vast majority. People like Jane Fonda, whose grave I promise to piss on if I outlive her.
The people who I respected were those like Mohammed Ali, who went to jail and paid the price for his beliefs. The people I loathed were the ones who ran to Canada and Sweden. Zero respect for them and for Carter who pardoned them.
We had way more than 4 channels in NYC, lol. But the schools and teachers and professors, then like now were so far left that it countered any rright wing bias. And by the way, the media at the time were all left wing, there was nothing but anti-war coverage on eevery network, so your assumption about the CIA running the media is completely opposite to what was happening.
So when I got my number I went in because I believed I owed the country that had let me demonstrate.
The Soviet Union would still exist if not for the military and economic pressure brought on it by the US, NATO, Reagan, Thatcher, et. al. Sitting back and waiting for Communism to fall from it's own inertia is proven false by the state of the world today. The Soviet Union fell because it was actively and sometimes violently opposed. The Communist Chinse have not fallen and will not unless they too are opposed in all ways possible. With Iran and Venezuealla and the Panama Canal, Trump is not just liberating people, and making the US safer, he is making major moves against China. A very necessary thing.
The guy on the left is a colonel following orders. Legal or not. He was following orders. It's not like he went into business for himself. The guy on the right is decades older and giving his opinion. 40 years is a long time. I hope no one judges you so harshly after that much time. I hope that makes sense to you.
I’m surprised that he didn’t disappear into anonymity, but he was a favorite of the NEOCONS.
They're running out of pawns and bringing back retirees.
Sorry guys this is completely unfair without the context of the times. Remember we also gave Stingers to the Mujahadeen that included Bin Ladin, because they were fighting the Russians who had invaded Afghanistan. This was the middle of the Col War.
The Communists had staged a takeover in Nicaragua with Daneal Ortega playing the part of Castro. A democrat Congress that opposed anything Reagan tried to do, much like today with the Dems and Trump, passed a ban on aiding the Contras - the folks fighting the Communist Sandanistas in Nicaragua.
Reagan, in order to get around the ban authorized North to sell weapons to both sides in the Iran - Iraq war. The logic, correctly, being the more of them dead on both sides the better for us. The money generated by the arms sales was then used to buy munitions for the Contras, bypassing Congress. A brilliant plan in all senses.
For people too young to have lived through the Cold War, I dare say the majority here, you simply can not use today as a reference point to judge what went on back then. I remember Sputnik being launched, and the threat that posed to the US (the Russians had the ability to drop a nuke on the US form orbit. I remember doing duck and cover drills in elementary school. I remember basements in apartment houses being stocked with Civil Defense supplies in case of a nuclear war.
No sorry guys using today's standards to judge yesterday's actions without the context of yesterday's reality is foolish and akin to saying that white people today should pay reparations to black folks because of slavery. In other words, it's bullshit.
I remember I had a book full of quotes as reading material for the guest bathroom, (this was pre smart phone days) and people came over for beers and bbq one night. Well, there was an older guy, one of my friends' dad who was a literal hippie, who used the bathroom and apparently read some of the book. He came out of the bathroom with a sour look on his face. He said, "Did you know Lincoln was racist?" We had puzzled looks on our faces. He says,"Yeah, he said, "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races"".
So he came to my function thinking Lincoln was great, but his view shifted that night. We tried to tell him it was different times, man, but he wouldn't listen. I heard recently that he and his son had a falling out over Trump and they aren't speaking to each other.
Red Pill Toilet! I love it.
There was no need to get involved with Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, or Nicaragua. Cold War or not, this was after Korea and Vietnam. The US government should’ve learned some lessons by the 1980s.
The Russians had approximately 33,000 nuclear weapons pointed at us in 1988. (https://www.britannica.com/question/Which-country-had-the-most-nuclear-weapons)
Don't tell me there was no reason to oppose them in Afghanistan. And we were trying to stop Nicaragua from becomming Cuba 2 for a damn good reason.
What lessons should we have learned ? The only lesson from Vietnam we should have learned we have learned. Don't fight a half assed war where you give back terrain you have won time and time again. If you fight, fight to win like we are now. I opposed the Vietnam war because we weren't fighting to win, we were fighting for a stalemate.
And when my number came up I served. How about yourself ?
The Soviets never did launch nukes at us. Their communism fell because it was economically and socially unsustainable, not because of American boondoggles into the third world.
I’m opposed to communism on the moral grounds that it requires government coercion of labor. The moral begets the practical, and people respond to government violence by dragging their feet economically, so the whole thing eventually becomes impractical. If we really dislike communism, one thing we can do is wait for it to implode. No need to add to the violence. It was special interests within the military industrial complex who told you that violence was the correct response.
Thank you for your service. I wasn’t born yet.
How did you oppose the war?
In the Ken Burns doc, some of the interviewed Vietnam War veterans who had previously considered being conscientious objectors gave some interesting views on what they really thought would have been the courageous and dutiful moves.
You grew up with only four tv channels, plenty of exposure to CIA fear-mongering, and no internet to debunk it. You have my sympathy.
Your welcome. And thank you. Demonstrations. I was in all of the Moratoriums in DC and probably 100 or more demonstrations in NYC from 67-71. Got stuff dropped on us and the crap beat out of us by the construction workers who were building the World Trade Center.
I knew the Berrigan brothers, a pair of Catholic priests who were major players in the antiwar movement. I could easily have gotten a CO if I had wanted it. But I wasn't a conscientious objector, I objected to the way the war was being fought not to us fighting it. I was never part of the movement that chanted "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh NLF is going to win." Those people were very few and were despised by the vast majority. People like Jane Fonda, whose grave I promise to piss on if I outlive her.
The people who I respected were those like Mohammed Ali, who went to jail and paid the price for his beliefs. The people I loathed were the ones who ran to Canada and Sweden. Zero respect for them and for Carter who pardoned them.
We had way more than 4 channels in NYC, lol. But the schools and teachers and professors, then like now were so far left that it countered any rright wing bias. And by the way, the media at the time were all left wing, there was nothing but anti-war coverage on eevery network, so your assumption about the CIA running the media is completely opposite to what was happening.
So when I got my number I went in because I believed I owed the country that had let me demonstrate.
The Soviet Union would still exist if not for the military and economic pressure brought on it by the US, NATO, Reagan, Thatcher, et. al. Sitting back and waiting for Communism to fall from it's own inertia is proven false by the state of the world today. The Soviet Union fell because it was actively and sometimes violently opposed. The Communist Chinse have not fallen and will not unless they too are opposed in all ways possible. With Iran and Venezuealla and the Panama Canal, Trump is not just liberating people, and making the US safer, he is making major moves against China. A very necessary thing.
China isn’t the same brand of communism that it used to be.
Tell that to the Uyghurs. Or the people still bearing the scars and losses from the Tiananmen Square massacre.
I completely agree. The Oliver North scandal was very complicated, and he was scapegoated.
That's like having a rapist on to discuss why rape is bad.
Sounds like Bill Clinton during his deposition.
IKR
you can't look at young ollie and not see george W bush.
I know I can't. The resemblance is pretty striking.
I remember reading something that gave me the impression that he was a scapegoat… took a hit for higher ups.
Very obviously. He was an officer following orders. Anyone thinking he was going into business for himself has no idea how the military works.
He and Fawn Hall recently got married in a secret marriage ceremony in Virginia....weird
Wow. Thanks for pointing that out.
https://www.grunge.com/1968141/iran-contra-scandal-oliver-north-fawn-hall-married-40-year-update/
I try to tell the Boomers at work that fox is nit better than the rest but alas, its on over half of the day.
ikr
"whatever pays the bills"
Corruption to the core, tired of these clowns we have on TV.
I saw Ollie at church a couple times back in the 80s, we went to the same church in Fairfax.
The guy on the left is a colonel following orders. Legal or not. He was following orders. It's not like he went into business for himself. The guy on the right is decades older and giving his opinion. 40 years is a long time. I hope no one judges you so harshly after that much time. I hope that makes sense to you.
My stance on Iran having missiles has evolved
- Ollie North, definitely
I thought he was smuggling spare parts for F-14s
That and missiles & rockets.
Does he have a tremor in his voice, because he has some mildly distinct facial features
Here's an educational video on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFV1uT-ihDo
sauce- https://x.com/tcblume/status/2028567653514662354