Are you baptized?
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Salvation is a gift of the Holy Spirit of God by his Grace not by water immersion. His will not our will. His sovereignty not ours.
Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven. - Charles Spurgeon
Jesus speaks Acts 1
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter speaks
Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The belief that Baptism does NOT believe wasn't invented until the late 16th century.
Mark 16:16 – “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” This is one of the clearest statements linking belief, baptism, and salvation.
Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Here baptism is directly tied to forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit.
Acts 22:16 – “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” Baptism is presented as the moment sins are washed away.
Romans 6:3–4 – “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead … we too might walk in newness of life.” Paul describes baptism as the way believers share in Christ’s death and resurrection.
Galatians 3:27 – “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Baptism is the moment of “putting on” Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 – “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Peter explicitly says “baptism … now saves you,” clarifying that its power comes through Christ’s resurrection.
So what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He was not baptized but Jesus told him he would be with Him in Paradise. Baptism does not save. It is an act of obedience showing your inward change. Only asking Jesus into your heart and life saves you. John 14:6: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. No mention of baptism.
God is not bound by anything. He gives mercy to who he wishes .
Although it was a unique situation. It was before pentecost and he had no way of doing anything more.
Gives mercy on those He has Elect, covered with the BLOOD of Jesus.
I like where you're going with this, but define elect. In its definition is "preferred". Everything reads better after that understanding.
Predestination is a real thing, often called the elect that the Lord is after in this life.
The Lord told Paul who hesitated about going into a certain city to preach the gospel,
He told Paul to go preach to them because I have much people in this city which means his elect.
That being said all things are possible with God and I truly believe that even in the salvation process.
Always pray for those you are trying to reach.
It is God's will that determines their salvation.
Stick by that heresy bub. But once you realize what definition the English translators used, you'll be more at peace
Will God contradict His own word?
Exactly; baptism is a profession of faith and should accompany a believer in their walk but is not always necessary for salvation. The thief on the Cross is a an example of this.
The only way to the Father (as you covered in John 14:6) is though Christ and His grace alone is enough.
Of course, we should produce fruit when we begin walking with Him but works do not save; just grace.
God can give mercy. I believe that thief is in heaven.
Also there was 21 Coptic Christians Martyred by ISIS. One of them wasn’t even Christian. ISIS offered to let him go if he converted to Islam but he said no accepted Christ right there and was Martyred with the others. He is in heaven too I bet.
You bring up an important point.
Jesus took the thief with him to paradise who was most assuredly baptized (immersed) with the Holy Spirit at some point in time. Not water.
Not water because that was John the Baptist journey. Water was to prepare the people in that locale for the coming Messiah. Not for anyone after.
John even said so.
"John 1:33 King James Version 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."
The scriptures cited by young patriot above go to heart of the matter. An entire reading and understanding of the New Testament reveals the plan of salvation put forth by the writings of the apostles.
The kingdom of God has come and is NOW. We are living it today. We are not waiting for Jesus to come for a second chance. The kingdom was established on the day of Pentecost when the spirit descended on the apostles gathered in the upper room. They went out and preached the gospel…..the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus….to thousands that day in many languages, and over 3000 believed and were baptized into his death. Baptism is the key to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Note that baptism is symbolic of the death of Jesus (you are DEADin your sins prior to immersion), you are buried with Him (under water you are dead and cannot survive), and are raised to a new life (receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling just as Christ was raised from the dead.) Baptism is deeply rooted in becoming a Christian.
Prior to the beginning of the church on that day at Pentecost, the old Mosaic law was still in effect. Jesus alone lived the law to perfection. The thief on the cross was also under the old law, and baptism into CHRIST was not in effect. John’s baptism was for folks to repent of their sins and announce the coming of the messiah and the new covenant.
Baptism means immersion. Unfortunately most people especially Dispensationals,
Think it means water.
Clearly and crystal clearly after the Day of Pentecost all those who hear the Gospel, believe, are at that moment Baptized ie immersed with the Holy Spirit.
It is God who did that.
NOT WATER
Water never had anything to do with eternal life.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Oh, look, another baseless attack on dispensationalism that is not founded in any kind of truth... dispensationalists believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit, so if you are going to criticize at least get it right...
I asked AI about your accusation against dispensationalists-
Q: Do dispensationalists believe that true baptism is water or the Holy Spirit?
Dispensationalists hold varying views on the nature of true baptism, with significant differences between mainstream and hyperdispensationalist perspectives. Mainstream dispensationalists generally believe that water baptism is a valid practice for believers today, though they may differ on its theological significance. In contrast, hyperdispensationalists, also known as mid-Acts dispensationalists or members of the Grace Movement, reject water baptism entirely. They argue that the only baptism applicable to the current "dispensation of the Grace of God" is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which occurs at the moment of salvation when the believer is made part of the "Body of Christ". This spiritual baptism is seen as an invisible, divine act performed by the Holy Spirit, not a physical ritual with water. According to this view, water baptism was a Jewish rite that was not part of the new covenant revealed through Paul, and thus is not required for believers today. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is considered the sole means by which one is incorporated into the Church, the body of Christ, and is distinct from the baptism with the Holy Spirit that occurred at Pentecost, which was for Israel. Therefore, while some dispensationalists affirm water baptism, the hyperdispensationalist position holds that true baptism is exclusively the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Q: Do the ones that affirm water baptism reject Holy Spirit baptism?
No, dispensationalists who affirm water baptism do not reject Holy Spirit baptism. Mainstream dispensationalists believe in both practices but distinguish their purposes: water baptism is seen as an outward ordinance symbolizing a believer's identification with Christ, while baptism by the Holy Spirit is understood as the spiritual act by which God places believers into the Body of Christ at the moment of salvation. These are viewed as complementary, not mutually exclusive.
Q: Do the ones who affirm water baptism teach that it is required for salvation?
No, dispensationalists who affirm water baptism do not teach that it is required for salvation. Mainstream dispensationalists view water baptism as an important act of obedience and public identification with Christ, but they clearly distinguish it from salvation, which they believe is by grace through faith alone. Water baptism is seen as the first step of discipleship and a testimony of one's faith, not a means to obtain salvation. Passages like Mark 16 are interpreted to emphasize belief as the sole condition for salvation, with baptism as a subsequent practice. This position is consistent across traditional dispensational theology.
Q: How would you evaluate the statement, "Baptism means immersion. Unfortunately most people especially Dispensationals, Think it means water," in light of these facts?
The statement "Baptism means immersion. Unfortunately most people especially Dispensationals, Think it means water," is inaccurate and misleading.
Baptism and Immersion: While the Greek word baptizō (βαπτίζω) primarily means "to immerse, dip, or plunge," the term "baptism" in Christian theology refers to a rite involving water—whether by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. The mode may vary, but the element (water) is central in most biblical and historical understandings.
Dispensationalists and Water Baptism: The claim that dispensationalists think baptism "means water" in a simplistic or incorrect way is false. Mainstream dispensationalists affirm water baptism as a commanded ordinance for believers, viewing it as an act of obedience and public identification with Christ. They do not deny the meaning of the word "baptism" as immersion; many practice immersion specifically because of its symbolic significance.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Dispensationalists also affirm the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which occurs at salvation and unites believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). This is distinct from water baptism but not seen as a redefinition of the term—rather, as a spiritual reality symbolized, not replaced, by the water rite.
Hyperdispensationalist Exception: A minority view, hyperdispensationalism, rejects water baptism entirely, teaching that only Spirit baptism is relevant today. But this is not representative of mainstream dispensational theology.
In short, the statement misrepresents both the linguistic facts and dispensational belief. Baptism involves water, and most dispensationalists rightly understand it as an immersion-based ordinance symbolizing death, burial, and resurrection with Christ.
There are groups that teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation, such as Churches of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans, however dispensationalists are not part of that group.
Mainstream dispensational theology clearly affirms that salvation is by grace through faith alone, apart from any works, including water baptism. While they view water baptism as an important act of obedience and public identification with Christ, it is not considered necessary for salvation. This is consistently taught across dispensational sources, which emphasize that the baptism which unites a believer to Christ is the Spirit's baptism at the moment of faith, not some water ritual.
I have addressed your misrepresentation of the dispensational boogeyman, as for the rest of your comment, I wholeheartedly agree. Water has nothing to do with eternal life. Baptismal regeneration is a works based theology that turns baptism into another gospel, replacing belief in Christ with works for salvation, and it is right to call it out, but when you are calling it out it should be against those who actually teach such heresy.
The main beef I have with Dispensation denominations is Zionism, and not recognizing or acknowledging that God is sovereign when it comes to the salvation process.
They outright reject predestination or election of God's chosen.
They always use phrases like we led this many people to Christ or this person got saved this day, as though that person has anything to do with their own salvation.
It always begins with the sinner's prayer then a week or so of taking water baptism so seriously that you have to prepare for it,
Then the act of going through water immersion, then pledging membership to the church and but of course tithing.
Then they are pronounced "saved".
And their basis of Zionism comes off of the Schofield Bible commentary and John Darby AKA the founder of the rapture.
Then you have their eschatology or end-time prophecy and in this their arrogance that they know exactly when the Lord is going to return all based off a bunch of frauds in the Middle East
and their timeline of becoming a so-called Nation when they're not even Israelites.
I am not judging whether they are saved or not just their doctrine is screwed up and causes a lot of problems.
Ah yes, Zionism, the primary reason that so many on this forum have turned Dispensationalism into this boogeyman. You have raised a number of points, and while I would largely disagree with most of them, I will simply address the first, as you say it is your biggest 'beef.'
I will not speak for dispensationalism specifically regarding this issue, I will instead speak for myself. I doubt we will ever agree on this issue. I believe that replacement theology, which declares that God is done with Israel and that He has cast them off forever for all that they have done, that they have no part with him anymore forever, is heresy and, frankly, spits in God's face. I do not mean this as an insult; I only mean to demonstrate how repugnant this theology is to me. I can not accept such a theology as it would be to me as though I was spitting in the face of my Lord.
I believe that God has a plan for Israel, and he has made promises that he can not break. The word of the Lord concerning Israel, the Israel that stones the prophets and rejected the Messiah, not some spiritual Israel -
"At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, (goyim, gentiles) and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.
Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.
Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever." Jeremiah 31
God has a clear plan for Israel, the backsliding daughter, not some spiritual successor, as a people and as a nation - and his word does not return void. He will not cast off Israel for all that they have done, this is explicitly stated. They are the natural branches and they will be grafted back in. The people of Israel will return to the land in unbelief, and after great tribulation they will turn back to Jesus, and every single person in Israel will believe in Him as the Messiah. And He will be their God, and they shall be His people.
That is so-called "Christian Zionism." It simply espouses that we believe that God will keep his promises. It does not elevate Jews above anyone else, nor does it excuse their sins and multitude of wickedness, we simply believe God's word, that's it. It is not our place to judge, and it does not please God for us to hate them, even if they make themselves our enemy (as many of them may). We are to love our enemies and pray for them.
You say you believe in election. While I do not agree with the reformed theology doctrine (I am assuming you are some form of Calvinist?) of unconditional election, this is simply a matter of election. God does as he pleases, and he has elected to save the Jews, they will repent and become His holy people forever. Is that so unacceptable? The Jews may be the worst of the worst, but if God can save them he can save anyone, even me, and even you. This would only be a testament to His abounding grace and mercy.
It has taken some time to format this reply, but I have changed my mind, I will... hopefully briefly... address some of the other points you made.
I will start by saying that the majority of the points you have brought up to criticize dispensationalism are not unique to this theological framework. Dispensationalists are by no means the only or largest group that rejects reformed theology - Armenians, for instance. There are also many other groups in evangelical circles that do not hold to dispensational teaching that also reject unconditional election and other reformed doctrines.
To your next point...
You are conflating practices common in some evangelical churches such as the sinner’s prayer, baptism, church membership, and tithing with dispensationalism itself. However, these practices are not unique to or required by dispensationalist theology.
Dispensationalism is primarily a framework for interpreting biblical prophecy and the structure of salvation history, especially concerning Israel and the Church. While many dispensationalists are found in evangelical, Baptist, or non-denominational churches that emphasize the sinner’s prayer and believer’s baptism, these conversion practices are part of broader evangelical tradition, not dispensational doctrine.
Your assertion that someone is "pronounced saved" only after completing a sequence of steps (prayer, baptism, tithing, membership) may reflect a local church culture or legalistic application, but not official dispensational teaching. Classic dispensationalism emphasizes salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from works, and views baptism and tithing as acts of obedience, not requirements for salvation.
Cont'd.
u/SubtleSigns
Now to the topic of Scofield and Darby that so many build into a straw man in a bogus attempt to discredit dispensational theology - your criticism is an oversimplification, and it misrepresents the origins of dispensationalist support for Zionism.
Darby was a key figure in developing dispensational theology and he emphasized a future restoration of national Israel, which later influenced Christian Zionism. He taught a clear distinction between Israel and the Church, and believed God's promises to Israel, especially those regarding the land, would be fulfilled literally. The Scofield Reference Bible popularized Darby's ideas in the United states. Its notes promoted the view that modern return of Jews to the Holy Land was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, and this influenced evangelical support for Zionism.
However, it is incorrect to say that dispensationalist Zionism is based only on Darby and Scofield. Their work systematized and spread the theology, but earlier Puritan and Reformed theologians also held some form of premillennial expectation involving Israel’s restoration. Additionally, many modern Christian Zionists are motivated by biblical interpretation, not just loyalty to Scofield or Darby.
Thus, while Darby and Scofield were influential in shaping modern Christian Zionism, they are not its sole or original foundation.
Neither Darby nor Scofield invented these ideas, they systematized them, and popularized them. These ideas became popular because they made sense to many people within their historical and theological context.
Dispensationalism gained widespread appeal because it offered a clear, literal interpretation of biblical prophecy, during times that were marked by social upheaval and global conflict. Its framework provided coherent answers to complex questions about history, Israel, and the end times. Events like the founding of Israel in 1948 and the Six-Day War in 1967 appeared to many as fulfillments of prophecy, reinforcing the system’s credibility.
Additionally, its rise was fueled by Bible conferences, seminaries like Dallas Theological Seminary, and popular works such as The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series, which made the theology accessible and compelling.
So, while not everyone may accept its premises, its popularity stems from its logical structure, scriptural fidelity, and timely relevance.
As for your assertion that John Darby "founded" the rapture... The criticism that the rapture doctrine originated solely with John Darby and the Scofield Bible is overstated. While Darby systematized pre-tribulation rapture theology and Scofield popularized it in the 20th century, earlier voices reflect similar ideas.
Here are some examples of Christian writings that reflect pre-trib or pre-wrath rapture views before Darby
Here are some examples of post-trib rapture views before Darby
So while Darby was pivotal in shaping modern dispensationalism, the idea was not entirely absent in church history. It remained a minority view until the 19th century, but the idea of believers being removed before judgment has historical precedent. To say it did not exist before Darby "invented" it misrepresents historical truth.
To your point regarding eschatology, virtually all Christian denominations hold to some form of eschatology (and all of them believe they are correct). Your assertion that dispensationalists "know exactly when the Lord is going to return all based off a bunch of frauds in the Middle East" is not accurate and misrepresents dispensational doctrine.
Dispensationalists universally affirm the doctrine of immanency, aka. the imminent return of Christ, meaning He could come at any moment, but they do not claim to know the exact time of His return. This belief is rooted in Jesus’ own words: “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matthew 24:36). Most dispensational theologians explicitly reject date-setting and emphasize that while believers should watch for signs, the timing remains unknown. while some individuals may make speculative claims, mainstream dispensationalism does not teach that anyone knows when Christ will return, only that His return is imminent and could happen at any time.
Now regarding the state of Israel, you dispute that Israel becoming a nation is relevant because you say they are frauds. I believe that even if some who claim to be Jews are not truly Israelites, which may or may not be the case, God is sovereign, and by His will, the real Jews will return to the land. What man means for evil, God uses for good, and in this case, to fulfill His ancient promises. He can use any means he wishes - political, historical, even imperfect leaders - to accomplish His purposes. Scripture is full of examples: Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Pharaoh. He can use the modern state of Israel just as He used them.
As for your final critique - I appreciate that you hesitate to accuse them of being unsaved. Many in reformed circles are quick to label those they disagree with as being unsaved. Dispensational theology isn’t 'screwed up,' as you put it. Aspects of its theological framework may cause problems if applied to your theology, but it is a logical, internally consistent framework that takes Scripture seriously, especially in applying a literal historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Whether one agrees with it is a separate matter.
This response has become much longer than I anticipated and it has also taken a significant amount of time, if anyone has read this far, I am sorry for sliding the comments with this, lol.
Just to throw it out there, I have a different interpretation of both the words “Zionism”, and “dispensationalism”, than I think either one of you do.
Without getting a solid handle on what those things mean, there’s not likely to be a solid resolution.
Here’s bb’s comment on “Zionism”
https://greatawakening.win/p/1AR0eCMffG/x/c/4eWciaaTmEs
I don’t remember where my comments on dispensationalism were at, but there’s multiple meanings wrapped up in it as well. Here’s one on -isms: https://greatawakening.win/p/1AR0iqkqln/x/c/4eWcj7LhwCE
Frankly, most debates on -ism/ist are probably total wastes of time. Gotta break individual ideas out and look at those.
Sliding?? I just called 911 because I'm buried in this avalanche!
Just kidding. I cant let this day go without recognizing your effort in defending your position.
You and I may not completely agree with each other but if we believe in the same God head,
The way is Jesus the Christ, fully God and fully Sovereign,
That we are saved by his will and Grace and the true baptism is of the Holy Spirit we are pretty darn close.
We all need to be wary of Satans tricks and lies.
Personally I think the vast majority of proclaimed Jews are not Israelites.
And they said as much after the war.
That squashes that whole come back as a nation for those people.
The true Israelites are the Anglo Saxon Caucasians and pick a nation.
Quit my day job? But Walmart is the best I can do!
The book of ACTS is a historical rendering of the Apostles and the early church. It is not doctrinal.
Peter said to paraphrase, baptism now saves us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (water) but of an answer of a good conscience toward God. (Holy Spirit.)
Water is great for cleaning us after a shower or bath, for cooling ourselves in a pool but has nothing to do with salvation.
If I could unite your two posts - baptism does not grant salvation of itself, but is a sign of salvation and should be observed.
Note also, a baptism in living (I.e. “moving”) water is ideal.
Look… a downvote from the scripturally illiterate.
"believe in thine heart" ONLY Jesus can see the HEART of a Believer, as He did with the thief on the Cross, who received the Gift of Salvation.When the thief heard Jesus say, while next to Jesus "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", that God was ready to forgive him, as He was ready to forgive the man that drove the spikes into His hands and feet. And the thief confessed with his mouth he wanted Jesus to forgive him. Edit: the Bible does not tell us if he was Baptize, but Jesus knew, and at that moment received Grace, other wise he would not have said "Today you will be with me in paradise"
A good news story from CBS? Why yes. Yes it is.
The ultimate One Weird Trick
Tomorrow is the big for me. Kaley Gabbard meet me in the water Revel on Sunday TN, hundreds to be baptized. I can't wait, so excited.
Praise GOD!!!
Beautiful story by Lisa Ling!
She’s on the other side I think, look into her history bill clinton, child trafficking w sister…
Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless?
Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Most have no idea
Interesting. I’ve never heard of Bill Donahue before but I want to hear more of his scriptural interpretations. Thanks for the link.
He's SO on point...but many are so addicted to religion, they aren't capable of hearing the message...or don't want to...
I'd suggest watching his oldest videos first: https://www.youtube.com/@bdona4556/videos
Like this one: https://youtu.be/bbYNc2YrYHM
and this one: https://youtu.be/RRCcQcUC4K4
Most, once they see the titles of each, won't even allow themselves to listen to the message...because they've already got everything all figured out already & their bingo card is etched in stone...Cognitive dissonance gatekeeps themselves from considering that maybe they got a few things wrong...
Thanks for the links, I will definitely check them all out.
I gotta say this Bill Donahue is saying things I’ve never heard put together. Though t I heard it all. Jury is still out on what I think about it. But it’s got me thinking. 🤔
It’s amazing to me how prevalent pride is, even among Christians.
After watching a few more videos from Bill, I have to say he relies on certain assumptions. The trouble is, while he’s boasting about the ability to ask of Jesus is a myth; proceeds to say that Jesus’ life follows the sun- a created star. Then he proceeds to correlate his analogy of Jesus’ birth being Dec 25th as part of the winter solstice. That’s simply inaccurate.
Considering his position being fairly radical, that was really sloppy. He has some really good points but in lieu of Charlie Kirk’s death, I don’t really believe that Bill Donahue ‘gets it.’ about Jesus Christ.
Fair. I haven’t listened yet, so can’t give an opinion either way.
What’s important that I was getting at though, is to never get to a point where we start assuming I know the Truth, because all’s I know is we are all guessing.
My comment was in reference to a lot of people, both here and elsewhere, within and without the church, becoming of the mind that they are definitely right, which just ain’t so.
Bill gets worse- he has a lot to say about gays. How Jesus doesn’t’t have a problem with gays, yet casts doubts on whether Jesus existed. The more I delved into Bill the more disgusted I became. I am all about questioning narratives but this guy is kind of trans humanist Buddhist gnostic with an impressive knowledge of the Bible. I can’t help but suspect he’s got some homosexual fetish. I strongly categorize him as a false teacher of the ravenous wolf variety. I do not like to make broad generalizations like the Left does with simplistic equivocation, so I try to be specific in my criticism. This guy is evil.
You can go into this with TaQo if you want, but I haven’t taken a look at any of his videos yet. My comment was more generic toward a lot of stiff-neckedness that I do see, and from a lot of people. For myself, I really don’t have a response to any of this.
No, I am not a believer in that... well I was for 25 years but no longer. But to each their own. =D
Did I say or suggest that?
Different churches apply baptism with their own rites. RC's, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Presbyterians, all baptize, or, "Christian" their children when babies. At that time, the parents, "god parents", or guardians, also take the baptismal vow to raise the child in Christ, adhere to the vow, which denies Satan, turns away from evil, read the gospel, and lead a Godly life. Every Easter, during the long service, the baptismal oaths are taken.In the Creed, "we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sin". The parents are supposed to be responsible for teaching and living the word. Genuine belief will hopefully come from this. I was a pious child, drifted away, and returned. I did not have to be baptized again. The Baptismal Rite is ancient, it assured that Christianity would maintain against pagan practice, established churches, and a record was kept, often when there was no such thing as a birth certificate, a baptismal record could be found. The God parent was there to make sure the child remained Christian and led a Christian life if something happened to the parents, and they take an oath to do this. In modern times, I understand all of this seems ancient, unnecessary, and the Baptists believe that a person should do this as they come of age, taking the oath as their own choice. The Mormons believe it does not matter where or when you were baptized, that if you want to join their sect, you have to do it their way, even if you were a man or woman of God,baptised by a Baptist or Catholic priest, you have to have that special baptism of the Mormon temple. Does it matter to Christ? I cannot say. I baptized my son when he was 4 months old, and it was a beautiful service attended by family, friends, with some very talented musical accompaniment, the Ave was sung, wonderful blessings in Gaelic Irish, with the elders of our church and the children of the church members. Our Faith is not something that you have, and never changes. Hopefully, it grows as our relationship with HIM grows. At 75, my faith and belief is solid, yet more is revealed if I remain in prayer. Sin creeps into the organizations and structures of a church, of course, it is inevitable, because we are all sinners. I do not break the commandments, but I may have a dark thought about my neighbor, that is a sin too. The spiritual uplifting that happens during a public baptism is fuel for the soul, it is Christ energy at work, and my God in Heaven, it pisses Satan off, to no end. I practice what I practice, to bring me closer to God and to lead a life that nourished my child in Faith. Humans seek this energy in false ways, when they do not get it through the sacraments, they go to sportsball games in stadiums, they worship Taylor Swift at concerts, they rally for politics on both sides. What they are seeking is that uplifting of spirit. Shame, because it can be found in worship, religious ritual, fellowship, hymns, and some of our glorious services.It is not a substitute of belief, it is an enhancement, and assurance that we are Christ's own.
Baptisms in Mormon temples are not for living people, but for people who have died who they believe live on in the spirit world (the place Jesus called "paradise" to the thief on the cross) who have accepted the gospel in the hereafter but were not able to receive the rites/ordinances of the same while on earth.
The rest is correct. Mormons believe that Christ did in fact establish a church anciently, and endowed that church with divine authority (called priesthood keys) with Peter being the presiding member of that church, endowed with those keys, just like the Catholics believe. But unlike the Catholics, and like some protestant sects who still acknowledge that Peter received such authority, they believe the Catholic church fell into apostasy and lost those keys of authority. They claim to know this because Joseph Smith said that God told him so, and that the resurrected Peter (among others) visited Joseph and bestowed those keys upon him.
So yes, Mormons do require you to get baptized again in their church in order to gain membership even if you had been baptized previously, as they do not believe whoever baptized you was properly authorized to do so. They see the ordinance of baptism, along with others that ARE performed in their temple, as necessary to enter the highest degree of heave in the afterlife (referred to as the "Celestial Kingdom"). But in a way they believe that all who are not considered "Sons of Perdition" (those who receive the Holy Ghost and a perfect knowledge of God and yet reject it) will be "saved" in the hereafter and be allowed into either in the "Telestial Kingdom" (lowest), and the "Terrestrial Kingdom" (next one up the ladder). But to enter the Celestial Kingdom, they do believe that certain ordinances are necessary, per God's word on the matter, and that said ordinances must be performed by someone who holds the authority to perform it, which keys they believe they hold exclusively in their church through Joseph Smith, through the resurrected Peter.
You can still be "saved" in Mormonism without receiving these ordinances, but Mormons have a very different idea of what "saved" means, and it includes the tiers I just described.
Baptisms for new members are not performed in the temples though, they're performed in a baptismal font within their normal meetinghouses--the buildings they all attend on Sundays in which non-members are invited to attend. To enter the Temple, they must pass a "worthiness interview" with their local bishop, however, who is a lot like a Catholic Priest, who Mormons go to confess their sins, and get a gameplan for helping them overcome such sins (whether they're forgiven or not is of course up to God, but their Bishops are their to provide spiritual guidance and support in helping them overcome said sins.
But yeah, to become a member of the Mormon/LDS Church, you need a Mormon/LDS baptism. But that baptism is performed in regular meetinghouses, not in their "temples." Those buildings are reserved for marriage ceremonies (called "sealings"), the receptions of something called an "endowment" (where they're given a new name and at which part they start wearing their "garments" under their clothes--what some like to call "magic underwear"), and baptisms and endowment ordinances for their ancestors. This is why Mormons are so obsessed with doing genealogy work. Each time they find someone in their ancestral line who has not received said ordinances in the temple, they go and do those ordinances for them on the off-chance that they have accepted the gospel in the "spirit world" (the place that Jesus referred to as "paradise" to the thief while on the cross).
Source: Me. I used to be Mormon, served a Mormon mission, and got married in a Mormon temple, so I know this stuff pretty well in depth.