Hello, I was browsing these forums and see people who dislike Socialism and Communism, but I was kinda wondering if any of y'all would like to deep dive on the subject and give me reasons you don't like the ideologies? Hoping to have a civil and open discussion, thank you in advance :)
Edit: I'm only human, sorry if it takes a bit for me to respond
So you dislike it due to how nations that didn't fully implement it have acted in the past? Just asking for clarification
Its impossible to implement without force due to human nature. What do you do with those like me who want liberty? Communism won't work unless people like me are arrested or killed because wanting my liberty is "selfish"
How does socialism and communism restrict your liberty? The implementation process can happen without restricting liberty, it would just be a long process of equalizing the rich and how much the ceo makes compared to the workers.
it usually starts off great. It’s when people realize how much power they can take for themselves that things get really bad.
Just look At how Chinese, Soviet or North Korean elites live versus the people.
Biology requires competition. That doesn't mean those that don't win in any one moment can't ever win in the future. It doesn't mean that those that don't win in some competition need to live in squalor. The baseline doesn't have to be zero, but without incentive to excel, biology dies. From E. coli to H. sapiens this has been the case for all of the existence of life on this planet. This isn't just a fundamental principle of biology, it is also fundamental in physics and every other area of science.
But to be specific, humans are biological. Humans require incentive to excel; to thrive. Socialism and Communism are designed to disincentivize excellence. That is why they can't work. There is no possible implementation of these ideologies that meets their self described goals because they are fundamentally flawed.
Islam is a religion tho?
The Quran is an instruction guide of laws and hierarchical structure. The punishment for not following the laws of the Quran is death.
Can I see a source for that bible with the upside down crosses?
https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/joe-1.jpg The bible was just held the opposite direction in your photo
Socialism leads to communism any way. But they make them sound good to people who think everyone gets the same amount of money no matter who they are but that is garbage. It certainly is not fair on those who work while others stay home and get the same money. Also in order to have socialism you have to have a big government and even though they tell you that everyone has the same it is not true because government is still super rich. What happens in socialism is because most people are not working and eventually you run out of money it ends up everybody is below the poverty line and struggling to live from day to day. It only sounds good the way they try to sell it to you but it is not. Socialism has never worked in any country at all every single one of them self destructed.
Communism is the effect of socialism as people have less and less and they already ate their dogs and cats because they are starving that is when the government takes its iron fist and completely enslaves you. You cant talk to people they dont want you talking too, you have food lines for a minimum supply of food and believe me there is never enough for you to not be hungry. You have no rights, the police can pick you up any time beat you torture you hold you for nothing. You wont get a lawyer or anything you have lost all rights. You cant just do what you want like go out to dinner or go to a movie or a sporting event or most other things in communist country you have nothing. Usually there is 1 tv station you are allowed and all it does is play propaganda all day.
People that live in both socialist or communist countries are the poorest people in the world with the least amount of anything. Yeah I know they try to make it sound like it is a good thing but it is only a good thing if you are one of the ones in charge. If you want to know about that ask people who have migrated from one of these countries and they will tell exactly the hell you have to live through. They came to the US to get away from that.
I was in Moscow in the early 90's, the poverty was off the scale. Each day we would walk down a street away from the big city area (our friendly KGB men wouldn't be far behind) and would walk over dead bodies. Poverty was everywhere.
The armed forces we were close too typically hadn't been paid for six months plus, had very little to eat (maybe an egg at breakfast and cabbage with a piece of meat at dinner) and had 100 soldiers sleeping on the floor of the barracks, no beds, with a blanket to try and keep warm.
In the city, occasionally you would see the Gov/Mafia convoys come speeding past in their own lanes, everyone got out the way. Big Mercedes Benz mostly, and they were the ones we met in the (relative to everything else) expensive "high class" restaurants, where you could eat what we would consider a normal dinner, but at a price. Corruption was everywhere!
Communism, where everyone is equal, except some are more equal than others, always!!
How does Socialism/Communism ideologies contribute to such issues exactly? Sounds like another authoritarian issue.
Because it is expecting human beings to all think a like and agree to have equal everything, which has never ever happened and won't as long as human's are on this earth. It becomes authoritarian (don't think simple governments) because without a controlling group it would never work. Hence a controlling power somewhere, which will lead to exactly what we have seen every where it has been tried.
Prime example was the CHAZ zone. It started off all love and drugs and free food, still it had a wall around it, self proclaimed militia guarding the entrances, over time the food ran out and people were killed when the same armed guards decided to start robbing people, people died!
Your utopia of humans all getting along, giving up everything for the common good, everybody has the same stake in everything is impossible. Go try it, get a group of likeminded people, give away every single item you own, start from scratch and see how long the group lasts without it either collapsing completely or one group taking over. It's the control of that group (example government) that needs controlling not the people of the land.
Here's another example of socialism eating itself. I watched some of the socialists of America conference back 2018. An issue arose where clapping or applauding was a perceived problem, it may trigger some people sensitive to clapping, so a new rule was voted for, that instead of clapping the audience should wave their hands in the air, so as to not "trigger" and (somehow) scare a couple of people in the audience. So they started waving, until someone said excuse me, what about the blind people!
You see with socialism/communism it is alway always fails.
OP doesn't seem to want to comment on this one lol
Need a moment lol
I'll dumb it down for you, It's easy to redistribute the "wealth" when there is nothing to distribute. Everyone has the same, nothing.
Socialism is an economic structure in name only. It makes people dependent on officials, kills creativity and entrepreneurship through the system of subsidies and allowances. People are relieved of responsibility for their own lives and remain passive. This creates pathology in subsequent generations. In Poland, where I live, it is like that. People who work bear the full burden of maintaining the increasing bureaucracy and keeping the unemployed. The government awards benefits while increasing taxes. It is more profitable not to work, because you get more untaxed money in different benefits.
The inherent Evil within them (all lies and deceit, the very tools of Evil). It's completely antithetical to everything America stands for.
Look at every single example of communism and if you still need it explained to you how that's bad, then please don't vote.
Communism by definition hasn't been implemented in any country ever, it's always Facism with a facade of Communism.
This, honestly, is the worst line of argumentation that I repeatedly hear.
Okay, so Communism, by definition, has to be stateless, classless, and moneyless.
What happens when there's people that don't want to play along? Because, good luck convincing 100% of society that we should forgo private property rights as currently understood. Well, there has to be some entity that has the authority, by means of the threat of force, to make people comply. However you want to slice it, that entity amounts to a de facto state. And, as seen played out throughout history, it's likely authoritarian in nature.
When the above plays out, the next generation of ever-naive Communists can point to it and say "B-b-but it's not real Communism!"
The conditions of classless and moneyless aren't even worth seriously entertaining. There's a reason 100% of the time whenever a new society has emerged from scratch, some form of class hierarchy and some form of currency have always organically emerged. The complexity required to sustain increasing societal growth and technological development without those would be unfeasible.
You're falling for their very lies and deceit. That's how they've tricked so many Americans into accepting this socialist/communist bs. Every single attempted implementation of Communism has resulted in mass murder/starvation/loss of freedoms/economic crashes etc.
To be so foolish as to keep falling for these same lies over and over and over and over again is to essentially sympathize with and support our enemies. (We are at war)
I implore you to read the Constitution, the Declaration, the writings of Thomas Paine and other founding fathers, for if you accept Communism as something to be wanted, you are lost and antithetical to what this nation and the American people stand for.
and why do you think that has happened every single time?
Because they were always authoritarian by nature, since the start
I grew up in such an abomination.
Due to socialism and communism?
Must have been the rain. Go read.
Communism and socialism discourage people from voluntarily working more and taking more risks than required, preventing society from advancing. Would you search for treasure, invent something or create an artwork if you knew that you would not get any profit and everything would be confiscated?
By the way totalitarian corporate monopolies (Google, Apple, etc...) are also communism. They are not "Free Market". Conservatives and libertarians are opposed to such monopolies. Capitalism can't exist without competition.
By the way, I upvoted your post because you are inciting an open and civil discussion. Let's have it!
What would be confiscated exactly and how is Google and Apple examples of communism?
Thank you for upvoting! Hope this can be nice and civil :)
In communist countries, whenever you invent, build or create something profitable or extraordinary, you get to keep none of the profit. There are no patents or copyrights. You get absolutely nothing, and therefore, there is no reason to do more than the minimum prescribed by the government.
Everything is owned by the state. You only get a tiny fraction, just like any other citizen, and even that just on paper because communist governments mismanage resources terribly.
Communism is where everything is owned by the people, it's all based on demand for something, in a Communism setup you would collectively work together and vote on which problems need work and based on that vote you would get rewarded proportionally.
This is an utopia. It only works if humans are robots. This is the reason why people who are pushing communism are at the same time pushing surveillance, thought policing and mind control.
In reality, communism is an oligarchy.
American capitalism is an oligarchy.
Google, Amazon and Apple are communist entities.
Can you elaborate a bit more on that?
rewarded? how? with money? you mean if you work more you get paid more? so you mean capitalism? XD
No, not capitalism, capitalism thrives on the exploitation of the working class. Where only the CEO's and top up make the most money, while the workers are exploited with low wages.
Why should I work hard to excel if the government will just give me the same life as every other person not in the party?
Do you have a problem with vast wealth being accumulated by individuals? Do you really think the government wouldn’t just hoard it themselves for themselves?
In a perfect world communism would probably be great (ala Star Trek) but humans are predisposed to be selfish (survival). I don’t want anyone to have the kind of power required for Marxism to work over me.
I mean just look at the USSR, or China today. China literally sends people to concentration camps for thinking differently.
You should read Gulag Archipelago to get insights into how Marxism is implemented. You should read Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell To learn why centrally planned economies don’t work.
The work value is determined by the society's needs.
Humans are social creatures and are all about helping each other to survive, without this we wouldn't have made it to this point in history. Sure some humans can be selfish, mainly in a capitalism setup due to the CEO's and higher ups making more money, but that doesn't represent humanity as a whole.
Statistically, most Americans are 100% okay with proposed socialist policies.
go home comrad
:c
You're applying your capitalistic view to communism. The land is owned by the people, the people choose what to farm, the people use what they farm.
There is no "state", everything is controlled by the people.
All the people being killed.
How does Socialism/Communism ideologies contribute to that exactly?
Take a look at the lot of the common man or woman in China, and you will find your answer.
The powerful elite in a communist regime treats everyone else like slaves.
True this "socialism" they want here is the exact same thing they have in china and if you ask them they sure would prefer the system we have here.
This is due to Totalitarian rule and not a Socialism/Communism related issue.
In practice they seem synonymous.
Communism has never been fully implemented, so not really
The question is, can it be?
Power corrupts, especially power with no checks or balances.
Communism is all about the elimination of social classes and where all the property is owned by the community. What you're pointing out is Authoritarianism, which can happen on either side of the political spectrum and isn't related to Socialism nor Communism
I understand that, but the average person on the street doesn't.
Plus, what really matters here is what Biden & Co's intentions are. Let's just say I don't think they have true equality for all in mind.
What do you mean by
How can you eliminate the social patterns you disapprove of e.g., the human family, without applying totalitarian brutality?
Was killing millions of kulaks part of the road to communism?
Or was that just an unfortunate whoopsie?
Both kill any initiative to work harder, be better, or improve the world. Right now I'm taking classes so I can get a better job and be able to provide better for my kids. They have plenty now, but I want to be able to give them more opportunities in hugh school and college.
In a communist or socialist society there is no motivation for that. Depending on joe and the ho's policies in the near future, I might give up on classes. Why should I bust my ass to make more money when more than half of what I make will be given to some lazy asshole who thinks they shouldn't have to work? I can sit on my ass and get free healthcare, food stamps, UBI, and survive just fine.
And the harder you work, the better you do for yourself, the more they take from you.
The only people who support communism or socialism are lazy, entitled children who think that they should be handed everything without having to work for it.
Yep, but I have been reading here for longer
According to Marx, the workers would rise up and take control of their own destiny. In reality, it has been new ruling elite that has used Communism as an excuse to depose the old ruling elite and to put themselves in power.
The disparity between rich and poor still exists. Remember, the really rich do not necessarily own everything they use. They just have total control over it. If you control a palace, several houses, a fleet of cars, a yacht and and a plane then it does not really matter whether you "own" it or not.
The main problem in my mind is that it removes the incentive of money. Money may be the worst incentive in the world apart from all the rest! If you live in an entrepreneurial society where people with ideas can benefit personally then you encourage progress. If everyone gets paid the same whatever they do it tends to suppress progress.
You see that in their products. Would you really want to drive a Trabant or a Zil for instance? The way China is progressing technologically is by stealing other countries' ideas.
The way people are encouraged is by threats and coercion.
Correct, in China every popular vehicle in the West is copied and simply renamed. It's made poorly though with inferior materials, big companies like BMW try and take them to court and stop it but the government (CCP) simply ignore it. It's a false reality, they may look like an expensive vehicle (good luck trying to get one in China, as your social credit score may not even let you have a bicycle) and in essence will only last a few years because of the build quality.
Communism prevents technological advancement. Communism only leads towards totalitarianism. Individual freedom is the biggest threat for communism. Communism creates slavery to sustain it. The communist leader also want to be praised and be seen as a god.
EVERYTHING
Like?
Like I don't like ANYTHING that socialism brings us.
One example?
Look at the comments on this page. You joined less than 24 hours ago, and have only commented on those.
I have been looking at the comments, but I was asking what you particularly don't like.
Like I said, everything. Nothing good comes out of bolshevism or all the derived isms we have today.
America is a beacon of freedom, communism is not freedom. A quick look at china's social credit system is enough to see that the chinese people do not have freedom like americans do. You mean to tell me your every action is monitored and ranked to the point if you don't comply you will be effectively gang stalked by the chinese government? Doesn't sound like freedom to me, it sounds like tyranny.
As mentioned before, I believe China is fascist with a facade of Communism, in the definition of Communism everything is owned by the people and gets rewarded based on their ability to provide to the community.
Then by that definition and according to nearly all historical accounts, communism is the vehicle for fascism and should not be trusted at all.
Correlation does not equal causation
Socialism is temptation created by the devil. In reality it just results in death.
How does it result in death? Any examples I can go through?
China, USSR those are your examples commie.
As mentioned before, I believe those countries are fascist with a facade of Communism, they aren't Communism by definition.
so you are saying that every time communism has been implemented, it ends up in failure... got it. Thanks
By definition, communism hasn't been fully implemented.
why?
Greed
mao zedong hugo chavez
That's what you would like to think commie.
I just want government to leave me the fuck alone as much as possible. Communism doesn't do that.
Communism and Socialism don't have to do with how authoritarian the government is, that depends on how Libertarian they are.
But communism and socialism will make a government more authoritarian, it has to buy definition, just look at the cancel culture happening now? It's only coming from one side and they will turn on each other until it reaches maximum authoritative control.
Can you tell me how by definition it makes it more authoritarian?
I will explain that after you explain how centralized decision making doesn't lead to authoritarianism.
Communism is not centralized, that's fascism.
Communism and authoritarianism go hand in hand, inevitably. You have to force people to redistribute resources. The government has to interfere in free enterprise in order for equal distribution of wealth. "Oh that was communism with fascism" No, that is the nature of communism.
You cannot have a libertarian communist society because in communism individuals have to engage in enterprise at the behest of the government, and the behest of the society, instead of based on their own entrepreneurial goals. People aught to be free.
And then there's the whole "it was never properly implemented" argument. Lol, how many times must it fail and create untold misery for people to get the point.
To, regarding authoritarianism, claim that
"This is due to Totalitarian rule and not a Socialism/Communism related issue."
is misleading and splitting hairs. You cannot separate the two because you have to remove freedom to enforce compliance with a communal goal.
Both ideologies subvert freedom of speech and freedom to choose how you live your life. Both ideologies place the “the individual” lower than “the system” in terms of importance. Both ideologies limit and repress religious or spiritual thought. Both ideologies create a bureaucratic layer that makes all decisions for you. An unelected, unknown bureaucrat decides what you can do with your life, how much money you can make, where you will live, what you will eat each day - every part of your life is run by the “state”. The “state” is always corrupt because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Neither communism or socialism have EVER been successful in improving the lot of mankind. These ideologies have killed more people through revolution, war, starvation, riot, and torture than any other killing method on earth. They subvert all natural instincts and CRUSH your soul. Obviously, if you are asking these questions in the way you are, you have neither lived under either ideology nor have you spent substantial time with those who have, nor have you seen up close and personal, the lifestyle these horrible ideologies actually create. Go bugger off.
Got some questions for this one
Lets just start with that for now.
Do your own research. Have you never read history? How old are you? How many countries have you lived in and studied?
Weird how rather than making a response you decided to ask personal questions, this leads to a logical fallacy called "ad hominem" and will never get you anywhere in discussions
Well that gives me your answers. Your an over eating youngster who has never lived in another country much less one that has come through communism or socialism, Enjoy your games.
Sure man lmao
What artists have thrived under communism?
Artists would thrive in communism if the people deem their work good. It's the same as capitalism in this sense except there is no CEO hoarding all the money and evading taxes out of greed.
대한민국 국민입니다.모든 조건을 배제하고 한국전쟁 이후 남한과 북한을 보면 이념 논쟁은 의미가 없습니다. 그러므로 공산주의는 지구에서 사라져야할 엘리트들의 통치도구 입니다. 공산주의에서는 악한1%로만 사람답게 살수 있습니다. 영어가 능숙하지못해 번역기로 글을 써서 의미가 이상할수 있습니다. 요약 한국과 북한을 비교해보라.
North Korea is a fascist state, in fully implemented Communism, the 1% wouldn't be the only people living like a human, as it's all about the elimination of social classes.
Communists deny the failure of communist countries. I think it is always perfect. However, under the principle of always failure and integrity, we create a deformed society. And always say. Let's realize the perfect communism and fool people into saying the impossible is possible. Summary Communists don't even know what communism is.
We know nothing of communism. Why are you here instead of talking to people who live under it or have managed to ESCAPE it?
Because no one has fully implemented it in the first place
Uhh...everything
Like?
Because if all the kids aren't cleaning up the toys, they all don't deserve a treat. There is always an elite class in socialism, which is against it's principles from the launch and NO WHERE in the world has socialism EVER worked, so why destroy the best country in the world to attempt it one more idiotic time??? No thanks.
I don't believe they all enjoy treats if they don't contribute to society as well, the issue is that the CEOs hoard all the money for themselves by paying themselves 100 times what normal workers get. Capitalism isn't the best environment for you to get paid for how much you help society, it's more about the upper individuals who sell the property, own the llc, etc
You can simply not purchase from a company that employs a hoarding CEO. You guys boycott for minimum wage, destroying the company while most of you own stock in it. Sell your stock, stop supporting the company that pays minimum wage. In that way the Public chooses who we purchase from. Not the government.
Communism and Socialism have killed more people than any other form of government.
Due to what ideology in Socialism and Communism?
In communism and socialism, an important element is the distribution of goods, which is based on coercion. An individual cannot achieve wealth unless he belongs to a privileged group. Resources are taken away in the form of increasingly higher taxes and distributed to the rest of society. A significant part of taxes is allocated to the needs of the privileged group. Censorship is in force and people telling the truth or things inconvenient for the establishment are persecuted. People are under surveillance and report themselves. I am Polish and I grew up during the communist era. People are treated like slaves and function thanks to conspiracy and the black market.
The boots. And the shouting.
That's not socialism/communism related
These ideologies hold that you, as a citizen have rights granted by a government to which one is also beholden, and that one is thus entitled to wages and absolved of responsibility for your fellow man whether family, friend or neighbor. You can never be grateful for that to which you are entitled. You can never know the heart filling joy of giving something charitably that someone was already entitled to. Thus socialism and communism eliminate and negate the values of our Republic based on rights granted by God, and our government produces values including gratitude and charity foremost and also freedom from oppressive government control, personal responsibility, liberty and civil rights which are the true foundations of human happiness. Communism and socialism produce dependence, misery and resentment as well as avarice and cheating and greed. These value systems ensure resulting societal decay and death. They hold up the worst values as good. That is why they are wrong.
Living in an echo chamber isn't healthy, gotta look at both sides from time to time :).
Also who am I?
You say you wanna discuss but have avoided all the actually good responses. Hmmn..
Which ones in particular? I am going through as many as I can while also working on my own projects. So yes this will be a slow process but I can prioritize ones that y'all want answers to. Which is ironically like communism
Hey man, that's cool and all I just wish it didn't dissuade some of the readers, I really want to have an open discussion here and open people's minds on their thoughts on these ideologies since it's advertised poorly.
Indicative of someone who's been told what to say vs how to think.
More like being flooded with long posts to go through
Socialism and Communism, don't dictate how evil the implementers are, and there is no way to determine that as it's never been fully implemented.
By definition, all people who wish to wield total power over others are evil.
That is why Zuckerberg is not popular here, along with Pol Pot.
One side wants to throw the other in “re-education camps”, take away freedom of speech by saying there is such a thing as “hate speech”, take money from hard working people and give it to another random group of people (wealth redistribution or reparations), and hold down one race of people (white people not allowed to be hired) in favor of another all in the name of “equity”. They also would like to remove the nuclear family and religion as goals. One side also would love to remove everyone’s guns at the first opportunity. They utilize executive orders without checks and balances...
What was the post you responded to?