Why would there be an initial tax? Did the government produce the property? Did they increase it's value? Did they do anything? If not, why would the government get a cut? If another person comes along and improves it more and then sells it, why does the government get a cut again?
Every time a home (or anything else a person already owns) is sold and a third party that didn't add anything useful to the sale gets a cut, that's called racketeering in any other context. Why is the government excluded from that otherwise criminal activity?
Why? Because the incorporated entity, municipal, county, city, federal or other, owns the land still. Property tax is essentially a use tax. As someone finally pointed out in here. Allodial title or land patents are just about the only way to own your land outright. Without it everyone is simply renting the space of ground and you own the structure or right to trespass.
I agree with your statements, but I don't know why you said "Why?" Was there something I said that you think was contrary? If so you will have to be more specific.
No not contrary. "Why" was what preceded the string of questioning you started with in the post. I was replying to that aspect of it and to why "government" gets a cut. Which isn't actually government, its incorporated entities such as the city, county etc.
Which isn't actually government, its incorporated entities such as the city, county etc.
All governments (as we use the term) are incorporated entities (incorporeal AKA non-existent entities made falsely corporeal through the fiction of law).
It is possible to have a government that isn't an incorporeal entity (recognizing the responsibility of the people involved in governance) but it would need some fundamental changes. In the context here (there's a great deal more to talk about on this), we'd have to understand what "law" means (a mutable guiding principle, like grease to lubricate Sovereign entities in their social interactions and not a "rule" which is a profound lie) and that any law that attempts to "govern" through law (a fiction) is automatically fraudulent, attempting to subvert our Natural Rights using a lie.
I like the additional input you have provided. It has added important context to this topic which is of great importance. The motored folks can see and read these things our republic steps further in cutting chains
And also outright fraud. The appraisal you are taxed at has nothing to do with reality and everything with the new stadium the school board wants to build
The most egregious part of it is as you grow older and your kids have long moved away, and your house has long been paid off, you're still fucking paying property tax.
My parents are gone. I live on their property. The taxes for just this one lot is $3000 for 1 year. They are financially raping this Monatana patriot. It is sad
Sauce According to Grok
( sorry busy day so no time to self pull)
Yes, in almost all modern developed countries, ordinary working individuals today face a substantially higher effective tax burden than medieval European plebs (free peasants) or serfs did.
Medieval tax/obligation burden (roughly 1000–1500 AD, Western Europe)
• Serfs (unfree peasants, the majority of the rural population):
• Paid the lord ~10–25 % of their harvest as manorial dues (typically 1/10 to 1/5, varying by region and period; the classic “tithe” was 10 % but often additional labor or goods were demanded).
• Corvée labor: 10–50 days per year of unpaid work on the lord’s land or infrastructure (equivalent to another 3–15 % of annual labor value).
• Tithe to the Church: another ~10 % of produce.
• Miscellaneous fees (marriage tax, inheritance tax, mill/bakery/oven monopolies, etc.).
• No direct income tax, no sales tax, no social-security contributions, no mandatory health-insurance premiums.
• Effective total extraction: historians’ estimates usually range from 20–35 % of output for a typical serf, sometimes spiking higher in bad regions/years.
• Free peasants/plebs in towns or on royal land:
• Usually paid only the Church tithe (10 %) + modest royal taxes (hearth tax, tallage, etc.) that were often a few percent.
• Total burden frequently under 15–20 %.
The “tax wedge” = income tax + employee + employer social-security contributions, expressed as % of total labor cost.
Even in low-tax OECD countries (Switzerland, USA, New Zealand ~30–32 %), you have to add:
• Sales/VAT (5–25 % on consumption, effectively another 5–15 % of income),
• Property taxes, fuel duties, excise taxes, vehicle registration, etc.
So a typical American making $60k probably hands over 38–45 % of their economic output to some level of government when everything is counted (federal income, state income, payroll, sales, property, etc.). That is higher than almost any medieval serf outside of the most exploitative manors.
Important caveats
What you get for the taxes Medieval serfs received basically nothing in return (occasional famine relief at best). Modern citizens get universal education, healthcare (in most developed countries), pensions, unemployment benefits, roads, police, military protection, etc. So the net welfare is vastly higher today even if gross extraction is higher.
Visibility Medieval taxes were mostly in kind (grain, chickens, days of labor) and very visible. Modern taxes are mostly withheld at source or hidden in prices, so people feel them less — but the economic burden is real.
Top-end burden is much higher today A medieval noble or lord paid essentially zero tax to anyone above him. Modern high earners routinely face 50–70 % marginal rates in many countries.
Bottom line
If we measure purely the percentage of economic output taken by the state and its intermediaries (lords, church, king → modern governments), the average modern worker in almost every developed country pays significantly more than a medieval serf or pleb did. The only major exceptions are a few very low-tax jurisdictions (Monaco, some Gulf states, Singapore for certain expats), but those are not where most “modern individuals” live.
So yes — by the crude metric of “how big a share of your labor/output is coercively taken?”, today’s middle and working classes are more heavily taxed than the medieval peasantry ever was.
End of Grok
Please note I personally feel that what we get for our taxes has been diminishing more and more rapidly while our taxes go up and up
That is also because the steady flood of foreigners is artificially increasing demand. Increased demand leads to higher prices for goods, lower wages for jobs and everything you cannot increase in price will lower in quality. That’s why all the social securities are giving you less benefits while everything is becoming more expensive.
There is a development of new homes going in behind us. I watched the construction from the first clearing of trees, to new homes being sold. I spoke with the developer and was told that they had to put out about 10 million to do all the permitting and excavation work just to get the point of building the first house. All during this time, the town harassed him and gave him grief over minute little details about this and that.
Once the house is sold, then the town proceeds to collect taxes on each home forever, feeding the public school beast and every few years coming up with some kind of excuse to raise the property tax rate.
Poster’s comment.
“This man is a GenX’er and he realized a long time ago that there was going to be no retirement for him.
“I sold all the things that I had, cashed in my retirement, and purchased some land out here in Tennessee to live on.
And now what I have to do is pay for permission to live on this land, buy permits, and I also have to pay taxes, every year, whatever amount they decide, forever, in this land of the “free”.
You can never escape this system they have built for us. There is no end to it. It goes on forever, until you die. This system, where we’re constantly paying a tithe to the government in hopes that they will do the right thing at some point, ever.”
"Whatever price they decide" is the icing on the cake.
Property Taxes are the biggest scam ever to force people to stay in the Matrix, in my opinion. We are never free. You're only as free as what you can afford. Perpetual property taxes should be abolished. You get taxed once when you buy it, and that should be it!”
I started my crusade against property taxes when my Great Aunt had to keep selling off pieces of her farm to pay those taxes. I started with the concept of no property taxes after age 65. But now some are going for the whole ball of wax and I am all in.
Yeah not just homes but farms and land shouldn't be taxed. But also only tax free to a certain extent. The super rich could hoard everything from us normal folk
I probably sound like a broken record at this point but property tax is NOT the problem, it's the underlying land ownership (or lack thereof). In this country, nearly all land is actually owned by the government (federal, state, county, city) through a system called "fee simple" which is feudal style ownership.
In the "fee simple" ownership of property is only indefinite ownership of the equity of the property. That property is still technically owned by the entity from which you purchased the equity and, although that entity cannot take the land from you without compensation, they can force you to "sell" back for a "fair" amount.
The ONLY way to own property is through Allodial title which is, essentially, ownership between you and God. This is land you actually own, it can't be taxed, taken, or regulated.
Property tax is simply a symptom of a larger issue, Allodial title is the only way to fix it entirely. That said, I'm not sure this country could handle everyone being on Allodial title, so let's start with getting rid of property tax and see how that goes.
Law Office of Joanna Smykowski, Esq.
Answered: September 4, 2024
“ Allodial titles are a concept that refers to land ownership that is independent of any superior landlord. In the United States, it is technically not possible to have an allodial title, as the government will always have the ability to take the land from you using eminent domain – thereby making them the superior landlord. Some states have allodial titles in their constitution, but the government is still the overarching landlord if push comes to shove. In general, the highest land ownership title you can have is called a fee simple. It means you own the land and everything permanently attached to it outright and unconditionally. Additionally, you have the exclusive right to use, possess, and enjoy the property, as long as you comply with local zoning laws and regulations. In order to obtain this, you’ll need to go through the appropriate purchasing and legal process, which a real estate attorney and a real estate agent can both assist with.”
Nice. I was reading comments here to see if someone would actually address the real issue, which you have here and with a very good description. Funny though, the rest of the posts on this thread are still normy level complaining it's not fair and asking rhetorical sarcastic questions, why do they get taxes even if.....etc.etc. most people just simply don't take the time to try and understand root causes, rather complain about symptoms of the underlying ailment/issue. Evidence these control systems work so well and why.
We have to pay 120K! year property tax for a commercial building, the value went up 3 million within a year 2 years ago (because Amazon has a big fulfillment warehouse in our town) and the tax doubled. This is highway robbery!
What sucks is that property values are largely set by banks through what they “determine property values to be” via their estimations for loans.
So if a bank wants to destroy an area by moving in low rent tenants they approve lower loans in an area, and if they want people to sell out through unaffordability and windfall seeking they approve higher loans in an area.
It’s difficult to save cash for real assets in high inflation environments, and decreases utilization, so most people opt for loans.
Totally inorganic manipulation of populations and businesses.
The property Tax rate per $10,000 scheme is REEVALUATIONS thats what makes housing unaffordable not the prime lending rate of course would be better the lower it is
Don't forget the scam of jacking your valuation, then you have to hire a lawyer to fight and the lawyer gets 1/3 of your tax "savings." Love that one over the years in Crook County, Illinois.
Property taxes are sure a burden for me. I have a payment I'm supposed to make on December 10 and I don't know how I'm going to come up with the money.
I understand the taxes for police, fire etc. To have the schools tax what they do to is whats disgusting. Before my divorce my taxes were $11,000/year. $6k-$7K were for the school.
Unless the historical context and reasons for the word “militia” in the second amendment are understood, those things probably aren’t actually understood.
There’s actually still around 250 private fire departments in the US!
It really shouldn’t be called a property tax, it should be called a school district City County tax. The money is used by the school district the city and the county. The sad part is is based on the value of your home, so it is really a luxury tax.
I think it just adjusts the equation of living, which requires perpetual resources
so, continued or increased work
or continued / increased flow from ("passive") investments or capital
Even without property taxes, there are still ongoing costs of living like for food and so on
So like another way of framing it would be like you need to eat 2x as much (or whatever multiple your property taxes cost)
(Note that I am not justifying property taxes and would like to see them disappear, but something of the same degree of the "wrongness" of taxes doesn't feel as there as it used to. For example the ancaps say "taxation is theft" and again I would be fine with there being no or less taxes, however there are still fixed costs if we didn't have involuntary taxation: you'd still have to pay for police, military, and court protections and privileges, which would be like a "tax" or continued cost over time.)
The property tax scam is horrible. He said you can never get out of it, until you die. Then when the house is sold by your heirs, the new owners pay tax until they die or have to sell because they can longer afford the home they bought and paid for.
I used to rationalize property tax as the cost of having an infrastructure was in place, and order keeping was supposed to help us keep from getting brained for our groceries or having our children raped to pieces.
They have been connsistently failing to hold their end of the bargain so its time for a change.
Why would there be an initial tax? Did the government produce the property? Did they increase it's value? Did they do anything? If not, why would the government get a cut? If another person comes along and improves it more and then sells it, why does the government get a cut again?
Every time a home (or anything else a person already owns) is sold and a third party that didn't add anything useful to the sale gets a cut, that's called racketeering in any other context. Why is the government excluded from that otherwise criminal activity?
Good point.
Does this explain it?
https://files.catbox.moe/57fw65.jpeg
Why? Because the incorporated entity, municipal, county, city, federal or other, owns the land still. Property tax is essentially a use tax. As someone finally pointed out in here. Allodial title or land patents are just about the only way to own your land outright. Without it everyone is simply renting the space of ground and you own the structure or right to trespass.
I agree with your statements, but I don't know why you said "Why?" Was there something I said that you think was contrary? If so you will have to be more specific.
No not contrary. "Why" was what preceded the string of questioning you started with in the post. I was replying to that aspect of it and to why "government" gets a cut. Which isn't actually government, its incorporated entities such as the city, county etc.
All governments (as we use the term) are incorporated entities (incorporeal AKA non-existent entities made falsely corporeal through the fiction of law).
It is possible to have a government that isn't an incorporeal entity (recognizing the responsibility of the people involved in governance) but it would need some fundamental changes. In the context here (there's a great deal more to talk about on this), we'd have to understand what "law" means (a mutable guiding principle, like grease to lubricate Sovereign entities in their social interactions and not a "rule" which is a profound lie) and that any law that attempts to "govern" through law (a fiction) is automatically fraudulent, attempting to subvert our Natural Rights using a lie.
I like the additional input you have provided. It has added important context to this topic which is of great importance. The motored folks can see and read these things our republic steps further in cutting chains
property tax is THEFT
And also outright fraud. The appraisal you are taxed at has nothing to do with reality and everything with the new stadium the school board wants to build
The most egregious part of it is as you grow older and your kids have long moved away, and your house has long been paid off, you're still fucking paying property tax.
Yeah.
My parents are gone. I live on their property. The taxes for just this one lot is $3000 for 1 year. They are financially raping this Monatana patriot. It is sad
Texas. - 10,500 year not big property just wrong area ugh
Sauce According to Grok ( sorry busy day so no time to self pull) Yes, in almost all modern developed countries, ordinary working individuals today face a substantially higher effective tax burden than medieval European plebs (free peasants) or serfs did. Medieval tax/obligation burden (roughly 1000–1500 AD, Western Europe) • Serfs (unfree peasants, the majority of the rural population): • Paid the lord ~10–25 % of their harvest as manorial dues (typically 1/10 to 1/5, varying by region and period; the classic “tithe” was 10 % but often additional labor or goods were demanded). • Corvée labor: 10–50 days per year of unpaid work on the lord’s land or infrastructure (equivalent to another 3–15 % of annual labor value). • Tithe to the Church: another ~10 % of produce. • Miscellaneous fees (marriage tax, inheritance tax, mill/bakery/oven monopolies, etc.). • No direct income tax, no sales tax, no social-security contributions, no mandatory health-insurance premiums. • Effective total extraction: historians’ estimates usually range from 20–35 % of output for a typical serf, sometimes spiking higher in bad regions/years. • Free peasants/plebs in towns or on royal land: • Usually paid only the Church tithe (10 %) + modest royal taxes (hearth tax, tallage, etc.) that were often a few percent. • Total burden frequently under 15–20 %. The “tax wedge” = income tax + employee + employer social-security contributions, expressed as % of total labor cost. Even in low-tax OECD countries (Switzerland, USA, New Zealand ~30–32 %), you have to add: • Sales/VAT (5–25 % on consumption, effectively another 5–15 % of income), • Property taxes, fuel duties, excise taxes, vehicle registration, etc. So a typical American making $60k probably hands over 38–45 % of their economic output to some level of government when everything is counted (federal income, state income, payroll, sales, property, etc.). That is higher than almost any medieval serf outside of the most exploitative manors. Important caveats
End of Grok Please note I personally feel that what we get for our taxes has been diminishing more and more rapidly while our taxes go up and up
That is also because the steady flood of foreigners is artificially increasing demand. Increased demand leads to higher prices for goods, lower wages for jobs and everything you cannot increase in price will lower in quality. That’s why all the social securities are giving you less benefits while everything is becoming more expensive.
We pay $8900 per year. I figured out by the time I retire it'll be about 12,500.
NJ taxes are pretty hilarious to look at if you don't live here.
There is a development of new homes going in behind us. I watched the construction from the first clearing of trees, to new homes being sold. I spoke with the developer and was told that they had to put out about 10 million to do all the permitting and excavation work just to get the point of building the first house. All during this time, the town harassed him and gave him grief over minute little details about this and that.
Once the house is sold, then the town proceeds to collect taxes on each home forever, feeding the public school beast and every few years coming up with some kind of excuse to raise the property tax rate.
It is infuriating usury.
Yes.
Poster’s comment. “This man is a GenX’er and he realized a long time ago that there was going to be no retirement for him.
“I sold all the things that I had, cashed in my retirement, and purchased some land out here in Tennessee to live on.
And now what I have to do is pay for permission to live on this land, buy permits, and I also have to pay taxes, every year, whatever amount they decide, forever, in this land of the “free”.
You can never escape this system they have built for us. There is no end to it. It goes on forever, until you die. This system, where we’re constantly paying a tithe to the government in hopes that they will do the right thing at some point, ever.”
"Whatever price they decide" is the icing on the cake.
Property Taxes are the biggest scam ever to force people to stay in the Matrix, in my opinion. We are never free. You're only as free as what you can afford. Perpetual property taxes should be abolished. You get taxed once when you buy it, and that should be it!”
I started my crusade against property taxes when my Great Aunt had to keep selling off pieces of her farm to pay those taxes. I started with the concept of no property taxes after age 65. But now some are going for the whole ball of wax and I am all in.
Yeah not just homes but farms and land shouldn't be taxed. But also only tax free to a certain extent. The super rich could hoard everything from us normal folk
Ironically property taxes are used to turn our children into lefty loser zombies 🧟♂️
No, Marxists. Property tax is one of the pinchers. Income tax - state & federal. Many states have sales tax! It is horrific!
I probably sound like a broken record at this point but property tax is NOT the problem, it's the underlying land ownership (or lack thereof). In this country, nearly all land is actually owned by the government (federal, state, county, city) through a system called "fee simple" which is feudal style ownership.
In the "fee simple" ownership of property is only indefinite ownership of the equity of the property. That property is still technically owned by the entity from which you purchased the equity and, although that entity cannot take the land from you without compensation, they can force you to "sell" back for a "fair" amount.
The ONLY way to own property is through Allodial title which is, essentially, ownership between you and God. This is land you actually own, it can't be taxed, taken, or regulated.
Property tax is simply a symptom of a larger issue, Allodial title is the only way to fix it entirely. That said, I'm not sure this country could handle everyone being on Allodial title, so let's start with getting rid of property tax and see how that goes.
Law Office of Joanna Smykowski, Esq. Answered: September 4, 2024 “ Allodial titles are a concept that refers to land ownership that is independent of any superior landlord. In the United States, it is technically not possible to have an allodial title, as the government will always have the ability to take the land from you using eminent domain – thereby making them the superior landlord. Some states have allodial titles in their constitution, but the government is still the overarching landlord if push comes to shove. In general, the highest land ownership title you can have is called a fee simple. It means you own the land and everything permanently attached to it outright and unconditionally. Additionally, you have the exclusive right to use, possess, and enjoy the property, as long as you comply with local zoning laws and regulations. In order to obtain this, you’ll need to go through the appropriate purchasing and legal process, which a real estate attorney and a real estate agent can both assist with.”
Nice. I was reading comments here to see if someone would actually address the real issue, which you have here and with a very good description. Funny though, the rest of the posts on this thread are still normy level complaining it's not fair and asking rhetorical sarcastic questions, why do they get taxes even if.....etc.etc. most people just simply don't take the time to try and understand root causes, rather complain about symptoms of the underlying ailment/issue. Evidence these control systems work so well and why.
We have to pay 120K! year property tax for a commercial building, the value went up 3 million within a year 2 years ago (because Amazon has a big fulfillment warehouse in our town) and the tax doubled. This is highway robbery!
What sucks is that property values are largely set by banks through what they “determine property values to be” via their estimations for loans.
So if a bank wants to destroy an area by moving in low rent tenants they approve lower loans in an area, and if they want people to sell out through unaffordability and windfall seeking they approve higher loans in an area.
It’s difficult to save cash for real assets in high inflation environments, and decreases utilization, so most people opt for loans.
Totally inorganic manipulation of populations and businesses.
What about all the city fees to do just about anything?
When you realize Plebs we’re taxed less than we are that hurts. Literally the serfs had less taken then we do.
The property Tax rate per $10,000 scheme is REEVALUATIONS thats what makes housing unaffordable not the prime lending rate of course would be better the lower it is
Don't forget the scam of jacking your valuation, then you have to hire a lawyer to fight and the lawyer gets 1/3 of your tax "savings." Love that one over the years in Crook County, Illinois.
Property taxes are sure a burden for me. I have a payment I'm supposed to make on December 10 and I don't know how I'm going to come up with the money.
Yeah, my brother is short this year as well.
Wny should we have a tax on a necessity like a house? Its stupid.
Government produces nothing but misery.
I understand the taxes for police, fire etc. To have the schools tax what they do to is whats disgusting. Before my divorce my taxes were $11,000/year. $6k-$7K were for the school.
Unless the historical context and reasons for the word “militia” in the second amendment are understood, those things probably aren’t actually understood.
There’s actually still around 250 private fire departments in the US!
Where I live its all volunteer fire. The county has the police which is broken up into precints.
It really shouldn’t be called a property tax, it should be called a school district City County tax. The money is used by the school district the city and the county. The sad part is is based on the value of your home, so it is really a luxury tax.
And that says nothing of the hidden bonds that undermine the system and pilfer away funds. Ad Valorem is Racketeering at it's core.
I had to look this up. ☺️ https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ad_valorem_tax
Value is only determined by a price. A price is established by a sale. Not by fiat from a local burocracy which has a vested interest in the "price"
True.
Right...
Property tax
Inheritance tax
Certificate of entitlement vs certificate of origin
etc, etc, etc into eternity... from cradle to grave
I think it just adjusts the equation of living, which requires perpetual resources
so, continued or increased work
or continued / increased flow from ("passive") investments or capital
Even without property taxes, there are still ongoing costs of living like for food and so on
So like another way of framing it would be like you need to eat 2x as much (or whatever multiple your property taxes cost)
(Note that I am not justifying property taxes and would like to see them disappear, but something of the same degree of the "wrongness" of taxes doesn't feel as there as it used to. For example the ancaps say "taxation is theft" and again I would be fine with there being no or less taxes, however there are still fixed costs if we didn't have involuntary taxation: you'd still have to pay for police, military, and court protections and privileges, which would be like a "tax" or continued cost over time.)
The property tax scam is horrible. He said you can never get out of it, until you die. Then when the house is sold by your heirs, the new owners pay tax until they die or have to sell because they can longer afford the home they bought and paid for.
I used to rationalize property tax as the cost of having an infrastructure was in place, and order keeping was supposed to help us keep from getting brained for our groceries or having our children raped to pieces.
They have been connsistently failing to hold their end of the bargain so its time for a change.