I voted you up because i believe this is a valid question, even if I don't agree with the conclusion you have come to .
–Anon_69E0A63BD has, to some degree, have you read it through? This part is particularly telling: (Matt. 19: 4 - 6)
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Part of the problem withAnon_69....'s answer is that some context is left out: Matt.19:3
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?” This passage relates to divorce directly, but to the issue of polygamy only indirectly. In the First Century, the Pharisees and Sadducees had already come to the conclusion Roman rule and the difficulties of providing for all wives justly (one couldn't diminish a first wife's rights to clothing, food or marital rights, otherwise she could go back to her parents (or brother, if they were gone) and take her 'bride - price' with her.) made polygamy too difficult. The conditions are equally difficult today.
My primary Scriptural argument, which was not mentioned by –Anon_69E0A63BD, is the argument from the two greatest commands:
Matthew 22:36 - 39
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
“This is the first and great commandment."
“And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
“On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Along with Paul's statement : Eph.5: 25 - 31, Where Paul describes the standard for Christian Marriage:
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two (not more, see Genesis 2:24) shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
It is a call back to the Creation mandate, where we didn't have the full consequences of declining fertility, and one man was married to one wife. Paul amplifies Jesus' meaning when he said that a husband was to love his wife as himself. (You would not want an 'open marriage' with out your consent, would you?)
Seriously, I won't downvote this, partially because I think simply saying polygamy is not for today is too simplistic, and partly because i think there are some reasonable times when polygamy should not be excluded as an option:
Married man in country where polygamy is permitted (and even encouraged!) finds Jesus, and his wives (all of them) are content to remain with him. According to 1 Cor. 7, It is recommended they remain as a whole family.
There are likely others, but this is the strongest one I could come up with, currently.
You should go way back to Genesis. How many wives did Adam have? How many did Noah have? How about each of his sons? How happy were the homes where the wives had to compete for the affections of the husband? The two becoming one? It’s not three or four or more becoming one. Jesus is the bridegroom coming to get his bride— not brides.
So I'm ok with Multiple wives, but I'll stick with the one I have. Women's Periods start to sync after awhile. So don't think life will be bliss with another wife or two... Kek!
Ok here goes— I’m an old 70+yo woman (2 adult kids- two dads)
I’ve lived a rural life most of my adulthood— animal husbandry etc — male livestock and male wildlife ( as grazing animals) mate multiple females because his drive and strength is desirable (husbandry) or more competitive (wildlife)
This insures herd stability and increase ( occasional young die - and the more the better )
As far as humans— I’m a weirdo because I loved “Pavilion of Women “ by Pearl S Buck when I was in high school in the late 60’s
Seemed very sensible for still virile men to take a second, third partner to continue reproduction of offspring after first wife was past viable child bearing age
A lot of older cultures and even present cultures condone this to propagate our species
I loved my spouses and my children but I only produced two kids—
Also - yeah - even female coworkers sync up — would need to be in separate houses or locations if still fertile
That’s my take as a purely reproductive/ logical reasoning to continue our species on earth and not as a female hormonal human ( which thankfully I no longer am 😅)
The only problem with this line of thinking, is that animals don’t have souls. They are here to breed for food, and for agriculture, and for a symbiotic relationship with earth. ie: bees, pollinate, the food chain of insects and other critters, etc…
God created us in his image, we actually have a soul! He made Adam and Eve, - not Adam, Eve, Evelyn, and Evie - God said the two should come together as one, and procreate. God only took one rib from Adam - so that should be your answer right there.
Also keep in mind with your logic, at the beginning of time people were living 100s of years, so they were able to procreate at more robust pace - pending the nine month pregnancy. But keep in mind there was no birth control, so the babies just kept coming.
😂😂😂
The only problem with this line of thinking, is that animals don’t have souls.
nephesh is the Hebrew term for soul, and is used for both the 'soul' of animals and the soul of humans. The distinction that should be made here is that mankind is made in God's image, which the animals are not.
if animals have souls like people, then how do they get to heaven? if you have a soul, I’m going to assume that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - so how does an animal do that? Since I haven’t seen anything in that Bible about that, then I’m gonna have to say that animals don’t have souls like humans do.
This is a hard take, because I’m literally a pet sitter and I care for peoples animals on the regular. Each of them have beautiful personalities, and are so loving and caring. How does all of this work. I can’t find it in the Bible, however, I am hopeful that there will be animals in heaven.
How could there not? I just don’t know how to wrap my mind around that biblically. I’m trusting a merciful God
C.S. Lewis once said something about animals getting in on the basis of their owner's relationship with God, just as a child under the age of accountability goes to heaven if they die on the basis of a parent's covering (1 Cor.7)
There is a LOT of context that Christians miss out on in the Bible because it’s “too Jewish”.
If I ever come off as against Y’Israel, it is certainly not my intention. I seek to try and help separate the hiding criminal element and corrupted philosophies from the Peoples and Logos of Elohim.
You’re welcome but I’m an anomaly— never been a victim, never felt less than- worked my butt off alongside great men and women-just happy to be here
I understand the gravity of human reproduction waning— not good — your research outlined the cause nicely
Have lots of kids! In that Elon is right and is doing his part— higher iq kids too - but all kids are important and very necessary!
You are conflating big families with requiring multiple wives. Many children can be the blessing of God with only one wife.
Some general commentary on your examples:
Jacob married Leah then Rachel. In that period of his life, I would argue his thoughts and desires did not particularly involve seeking God. He did eventually seek God and he wrestled with God for a blessing just before he was to meet his brother Esau whom he feared would kill him on sight due to stealing Esau's blessing and swindling Esau's birthright. It was after this encounter with God that Jacob changed. This is also made clear by God renaming Jacob to Israel. Jacob already had 2 wives and 2 concubines so this continued, but what happened is not necessarily aligned with what God's intended purpose and plan for a marriage is.
David did take multiple wives and was also said to be a man after God's own heart. David's best desires though did not prevent his flesh from leading him astray. His multiple wives bore multiple children and the whole situation caused serious calamities to befall Israel and the House of David including a rebellion and civil war by Absalom and the eventual divided kingdom period. Had David been content in the blessing of God for marriage between 1 man and 1 woman, David would have avoided many future troubles for himself, his children, and his kingdom.
Solomon took many wives and concubines. In fact he was extremely worldly and disobedient in many ways to God's law during his life. With his many wives came idolatry. His many wives setup the events that directly led to the divided kingdom even though it was David whose sins brought that prophesied punishment from God. These men David and Solomon were flawed sinful dysfunctional men whom at times wanted to follow God's law but were unable to and multiple wives was an aspect of this sin playing out in their lives. God used them even in their sinfulness to bring about his perfect plan and timing in this world.
Shifting to the New Testament
I Timothy 3:2 clearly indicates multiple wives in marriage is not the intended plan. This is why husband of 1 wife is specified as a requirement of pastoral leadership.
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
But that is for leaders you may argue. But the reality is we are to follow Jesus and our actions and thoughts should be toward that goal. If leadership requires the Christian be notably qualified by doing well in this way, it is also true that the congregation being led should also be striving to meet the same standard for it is out of the congregation that leaders will be determined and appointed by the Holy Spirit.
It is unfortunate the Bible doesn't fit man's desire for multiple wives or other arrangements for marriage. Before Christ, multiple wives to a husband was tolerated in some cases but that does not mean it was the intended perfect plan God created marriage to be. Specific to Hebrew law, the requirement for a wife (where the husband has brothers) in the family where the wife's husband dies without producing a child was to be married to the brother ( bringing the possibility of two wives to one man) was allowed to insure the bloodline and inheritance of the dead brother was not ended. For Israel this could cause problems if family lines died out given that each family line was promised prophetically specific blessings. Outside of that specific scenario, multiple wives is not condoned. In fact, I would argue that for the Christian, we are expected to follow Jesus. Jesus said to the teachers of the law that divorce was allowed to the Hebrew people by Moses because of their hard hearts (ie not seeking God), and clarified it was not the plan God intended (for marriage to be dissolved). Similarly marriage is designed and intended by God to be a uniting of one man and one woman into one flesh.
Matthew 19:4-6
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Simply stated, God did not set His creation up to match man's sinful nature which came after the man's fall. Since God is Holy and we are not Holy in this life, this makes for a good deal of internal friction for our fleshly nature when we are trying to follow Jesus -- at least there is friction for those whom are following Jesus having believed in Him and trusted that His death and resurrection is the perfect sacrifice through which we are saved by grace through faith (which that faith is also given to the believer by the Holy Spirit awakening the person to the reality that they are dead in their sins and that they are made alive in Christ), and that this salvation through Jesus provides the Christian with the Holy Spirit which replaces our heart of stone (dead in sin and at war with God) with a heart of flesh (alive in Christ Jesus and able to resist the fleshly desires by relying on God and seeking Him). To follow Christ is to follow the Father and the institution of marriage given by God in this context of following God is one man and one woman married before God for life.
Frankly, the corruption of God's intended design and purpose for marriage and of the family produced in that paradigm is definitely part of Satan's plan for humanity. Satan's plan to corrupt is also greatly aided by sinful man's hard heart which ignores God's plan and purpose and supplants God's rule with mans sinful desires. Both destroying marriage and the family through divorce, adultery, and fornication and extending marriage to be multiple husbands and/or multiple wives are corruptions to what God has revealed in the Bible is intended. By following either path falling outside what God intended and specified ( 1 man and 1 woman), we are displaying and revealing evidence of our sinful hard hearts that do not seek and follow Jesus.
I’d share my husband over my cold dead body. And that’s not even coming from a feminist. Would you want to share your wife with other men? This sounds like the degenerate shit we are currently fighting against as Christians.
I dislike hypocrisy, it’s why I can never be a liberal. If men don’t want to share their wives why the hell should women share their husbands? How on Earth are harems the answer to our family and gender issues?? They fall for propaganda just like anyone else.
How about instead of cruising through raising our children we start getting involved. Raise them to know the importance of family values and to recognise propaganda and lies for what they are. We have generations just cruising through parenting and it has to stop. You want to save our society, it starts at home.
And even if God commanded this harem crap you speak of, I would rather die a spinster. I respect loyalty and love. My husband has both of those from me and I have both of those from him. I only have children from our marriage and he only has them from me. End of story.
no, they don’t believe Jesus is God. They believe that when you die, you become a God, have your own planet, and continues to propagate it with all of your wives as is suggested in this post. 🤷♀️
that’s not saying that I don’t think that some Mormons are saved.
that’s not saying that I don’t think some Catholics are saved
that’s not saying that I don’t think some Christians are saved.
it’s a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and only God truly knows if somebody has accepted him as their Lord and savior.
that’s what it comes down to. I cannot claim that all Mormons are going to hell, that would be a ridiculous statement!
but if you don’t believe Jesus is God, then you have a huge problem with blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgivable sin.
I'm pretty sure they follow the new testament though, so that may be a misunderstanding of their beliefs. the word 'god' is used many time in the Bible to refer to concepts other than the monotheistic JHVH. There is a reward in heaven, and 'god'like powers don't seem to conflict with the idea of JHVH and His only begotten son, Jesus Christ. The Bible still applies. So on behalf of all mormons, that is my issue with treating mormonism and Christianity as mutually exclusive.
They believe in a different Jesus than the one described in the Bible. The mormon Jesus is a created being, the spirit brother of Lucifer, the devil. The Christian Jesus is the fullness of deity (God) in human flesh. Mostly though mormons are polytheists (many gods). It is central to their doctrine which includes polygamy. Christianity is monotheistic (one eternal God, without beginning and without end). You are either one or the other. You cannot be both. This one fact alone excludes mormons from true Christianity.
I don't see any facts here. they incorporate the whole Bible in their beliefs, which means it is the same Jesus, and not polytheistic.
Again, the Bible itself speaks of many 'gods', but that does not mean the Bible is polytheistic. So no, you sound nuts. People also read the Bible and conclude that the Earth is flat. Human understanding of the Bible is subject to many human errors, which I believe you have displayed here nicely. edit: and yes, just downdoot when you run out of logical arguments.
you can find a contradiction there as easily as many find a contradiction between a firmament and a spherical earth. but that's a pretty worldly interpretation, and hardly conclusive.
I’ve asked this question before and gotten a reply that makes some sense, but I don’t have the numbers behind it.
“It’s true that it’s not forbidden, but most of the cases of it presented in the Bible illustrate things going seriously wrong as a result of it.”
Anyone familiar with the jealousy and cattiness that women can harbor and enact, especially women, can support this comment.
Now, I did not afterward go through and make a list of each time the Bible mentions polygyny, and the immediate consequences and situations and long term issues it created, so this is just food for thought if someone else wants to dig on it.
There are verses, specifically around apocalyptic prophecy, where it is mentioned how many women will come begging for salvation from the faithful who remain, and how in those days God will be glorified greatly (paraphrased from memory). I don’t remember the specific verse.
Long story short I don’t have an answer, but this may be some information to ponder over and research. It seems like the situation for this practice to be sensible involves a lot of suffering and hardship to be present, so pray it never shows a need to be practiced.
"There are verses, specifically around apocalyptic prophecy, where it is mentioned how many women will come begging for salvation from the faithful who remain, and how in those days God will be glorified greatly (paraphrased from memory). I don’t remember the specific verse."
Isaiah 4:1, "In that day so few men will be left that seven women will fight for each man, saying, “Let us all marry you! We will provide our own food and clothing. Only let us take your name so we won’t be mocked as old maids.”
⬆️ this is a "apocalyptic"prophecy. Think about deagle(.)com's (the US defense contractor) report projecting a 50% decline in world population by 2025.
I believe this will happen because societies follow a pendulum rhythm: "the measure of the swing to the left (culturally) will be the measure of the swing to the right," after this Conservative American Revolution has culminated.
Then (good) men who can support big families will be revered as highly valuable to society, possibly to an exaggerated extent.
Why? Because the degree to which even good men in the society now are reviled is at such an exaggerated state.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! That was the whole point of the OP but a lot of women and simps here just showed their feels and offered no even half assed rebuttal.
It’s one of those topics, like slavery, that we’ve had a bit of a taboo on discussing openly and reasonably with open minds for a while.
Screw taboos. What we were doing got us here. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, but question and test everything.
All this said, as I noted, I do think it’s probably better to avoid this practice for the foreseeable future unless something changes dramatically. I just also don’t think it should be considered off-limits. It strikes me as a “break glass in case of emergency” kind of thing.
Just got through watching an interesting video on youTube by Aewar called Black Swan Blues and it addresses this very thing. It is quite interesting to think about they "why" of it because I don't think you can deny it.
The Roman Catholic Church, with zero Biblical backing, twisted scripture to justify the "Deification of Mary" (circa 1951 Vatican council - i.e. praying to Mary, not Christ or our Heavenly Father).
There was no vatican council in or around 1951. Maybe you're referring to a document? Sauce please.
Know anyone who prays to Mary? It wasn't a thing until after WW2.
Now this one is wild claim, hope you have some sauce on that. Veneration of/Praying to Mary has been going since the first centuries.
So when you show someone how it miraculously changed all of the sudden a few generations ago, how do you think they would react? Too brainwashed to dare say a prayer directly to the Heavenly Father?
How did it miraculously change???
Used to be Catholic and have a tattoo, lol, congrats??? That's real deep man.
Ah, Lumen Gentium of 1964 you mean, not 1951. Typo I'm sure. I'm familiar with it, however I'm at a loss of your inference of the "deification" of Mary. Or that Mary is to be worshipped instead of God the Son and God the Father (I'll include God the Holy Ghost for you too). "For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, CALLS THE FAITHFUL TO HER SON AND HIS SACRIFICE AND TO THE LOVE OF THE FATHER."
Bummed you can't provide any basis of your claim praying to Mary wasn't a thing before WWII. You say you can show someone, yet still no sauce. I was really looking forward to having a good laugh at that.
Yours was a poorly researched and wildly inaccurate post. My simple request for sauce doesn't require research. I have better things to do like daily mass and adoration. Will pray a rosary just for you today brother.
What a rookie. If you really want to farm downvotes say that the earth isn't flat.
Hahaha honestly I expected more!
Quite disappointing that no one offered a logical, Bible-based rebuttal. Just a bunch of feelings and emotion.
I voted you up because i believe this is a valid question, even if I don't agree with the conclusion you have come to .
–Anon_69E0A63BD has, to some degree, have you read it through? This part is particularly telling: (Matt. 19: 4 - 6)
Part of the problem withAnon_69....'s answer is that some context is left out: Matt.19:3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?” This passage relates to divorce directly, but to the issue of polygamy only indirectly. In the First Century, the Pharisees and Sadducees had already come to the conclusion Roman rule and the difficulties of providing for all wives justly (one couldn't diminish a first wife's rights to clothing, food or marital rights, otherwise she could go back to her parents (or brother, if they were gone) and take her 'bride - price' with her.) made polygamy too difficult. The conditions are equally difficult today.
My primary Scriptural argument, which was not mentioned by –Anon_69E0A63BD, is the argument from the two greatest commands: Matthew 22:36 - 39
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ “This is the first and great commandment."
“And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
“On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Along with Paul's statement : Eph.5: 25 - 31, Where Paul describes the standard for Christian Marriage:
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two (not more, see Genesis 2:24) shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
It is a call back to the Creation mandate, where we didn't have the full consequences of declining fertility, and one man was married to one wife. Paul amplifies Jesus' meaning when he said that a husband was to love his wife as himself. (You would not want an 'open marriage' with out your consent, would you?) Seriously, I won't downvote this, partially because I think simply saying polygamy is not for today is too simplistic, and partly because i think there are some reasonable times when polygamy should not be excluded as an option:
There are likely others, but this is the strongest one I could come up with, currently.
I didn’t quote book chapter and verse for you, but I did use scripture. If you don’t know where it’s located in the Bible that’s on you, not me.
You should go way back to Genesis. How many wives did Adam have? How many did Noah have? How about each of his sons? How happy were the homes where the wives had to compete for the affections of the husband? The two becoming one? It’s not three or four or more becoming one. Jesus is the bridegroom coming to get his bride— not brides.
👏👏👏👏👏
And all that effort he put into trying to gaslight us. 😂😂😂
It's not Adam and Eve, Eva, Ethel, Erma, Erica....
u/#Catdance
One Adam, one Eve.
👏👏👏
One Rib 😂😂😂
Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. lol
So I'm ok with Multiple wives, but I'll stick with the one I have. Women's Periods start to sync after awhile. So don't think life will be bliss with another wife or two... Kek!
Most men can't handle the woman that they have. What would it be like with a house filled with them? 😂
Methinks this is a case of, "Be careful what you wish for."
Proverbs 21:9-19 New International Version 9 Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Now imagine if it said, "Multiple quarrelsome wives".
The most common male fantasy is probably 2 women, watch then plug in... Heh heh.
Men have a need for sex, women have the gift of sex...
Can you put it off a lot of effort into a big fat lie. This is one good psychological operation you got going here. You get an A+ for at least effort.
However I’m gonna stick with God’s word.
God bless. Have a great night.
Ok here goes— I’m an old 70+yo woman (2 adult kids- two dads) I’ve lived a rural life most of my adulthood— animal husbandry etc — male livestock and male wildlife ( as grazing animals) mate multiple females because his drive and strength is desirable (husbandry) or more competitive (wildlife) This insures herd stability and increase ( occasional young die - and the more the better ) As far as humans— I’m a weirdo because I loved “Pavilion of Women “ by Pearl S Buck when I was in high school in the late 60’s Seemed very sensible for still virile men to take a second, third partner to continue reproduction of offspring after first wife was past viable child bearing age A lot of older cultures and even present cultures condone this to propagate our species I loved my spouses and my children but I only produced two kids— Also - yeah - even female coworkers sync up — would need to be in separate houses or locations if still fertile That’s my take as a purely reproductive/ logical reasoning to continue our species on earth and not as a female hormonal human ( which thankfully I no longer am 😅)
The only problem with this line of thinking, is that animals don’t have souls. They are here to breed for food, and for agriculture, and for a symbiotic relationship with earth. ie: bees, pollinate, the food chain of insects and other critters, etc…
God created us in his image, we actually have a soul! He made Adam and Eve, - not Adam, Eve, Evelyn, and Evie - God said the two should come together as one, and procreate. God only took one rib from Adam - so that should be your answer right there.
Also keep in mind with your logic, at the beginning of time people were living 100s of years, so they were able to procreate at more robust pace - pending the nine month pregnancy. But keep in mind there was no birth control, so the babies just kept coming. 😂😂😂
I beg to differ on the point that:
nephesh is the Hebrew term for soul, and is used for both the 'soul' of animals and the soul of humans. The distinction that should be made here is that mankind is made in God's image, which the animals are not.
if animals have souls like people, then how do they get to heaven? if you have a soul, I’m going to assume that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - so how does an animal do that? Since I haven’t seen anything in that Bible about that, then I’m gonna have to say that animals don’t have souls like humans do.
This is a hard take, because I’m literally a pet sitter and I care for peoples animals on the regular. Each of them have beautiful personalities, and are so loving and caring. How does all of this work. I can’t find it in the Bible, however, I am hopeful that there will be animals in heaven.
How could there not? I just don’t know how to wrap my mind around that biblically. I’m trusting a merciful God
There is a good book on the topic called Resurrection by apologist Hank Hanegraff, who covers the issue in a chapter in the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Hank-Hanegraaff-audiobook/dp/B00005KA61
They have living souls, but (as I mentioned) they are not created in the image of God.
Interesting. I have heard of Hank Hanagraff
C.S. Lewis once said something about animals getting in on the basis of their owner's relationship with God, just as a child under the age of accountability goes to heaven if they die on the basis of a parent's covering (1 Cor.7)
https://intellectualtakeout.org/2016/04/do-animals-go-to-heaven-c-s-lewis-answer-might-surprise-you/
https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/will-there-be-dogs-in-heaven/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6165Ugsr8
I believe we will see our pets again. The love we give them imprints our souls into them.
Take a look at this
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
There is a LOT of context that Christians miss out on in the Bible because it’s “too Jewish”.
If I ever come off as against Y’Israel, it is certainly not my intention. I seek to try and help separate the hiding criminal element and corrupted philosophies from the Peoples and Logos of Elohim.
Very true
u/Jackjet10 Thank you for a woman's perspective!
You’re welcome but I’m an anomaly— never been a victim, never felt less than- worked my butt off alongside great men and women-just happy to be here I understand the gravity of human reproduction waning— not good — your research outlined the cause nicely Have lots of kids! In that Elon is right and is doing his part— higher iq kids too - but all kids are important and very necessary!
One word I like to point out… words are important, they shape how we see reality…
“Kids” are baby goats.
Men have “children”.
Maybe it’s a quibble, but what if the distinction has real psychological impact?
You are conflating big families with requiring multiple wives. Many children can be the blessing of God with only one wife.
Some general commentary on your examples: Jacob married Leah then Rachel. In that period of his life, I would argue his thoughts and desires did not particularly involve seeking God. He did eventually seek God and he wrestled with God for a blessing just before he was to meet his brother Esau whom he feared would kill him on sight due to stealing Esau's blessing and swindling Esau's birthright. It was after this encounter with God that Jacob changed. This is also made clear by God renaming Jacob to Israel. Jacob already had 2 wives and 2 concubines so this continued, but what happened is not necessarily aligned with what God's intended purpose and plan for a marriage is.
David did take multiple wives and was also said to be a man after God's own heart. David's best desires though did not prevent his flesh from leading him astray. His multiple wives bore multiple children and the whole situation caused serious calamities to befall Israel and the House of David including a rebellion and civil war by Absalom and the eventual divided kingdom period. Had David been content in the blessing of God for marriage between 1 man and 1 woman, David would have avoided many future troubles for himself, his children, and his kingdom.
Solomon took many wives and concubines. In fact he was extremely worldly and disobedient in many ways to God's law during his life. With his many wives came idolatry. His many wives setup the events that directly led to the divided kingdom even though it was David whose sins brought that prophesied punishment from God. These men David and Solomon were flawed sinful dysfunctional men whom at times wanted to follow God's law but were unable to and multiple wives was an aspect of this sin playing out in their lives. God used them even in their sinfulness to bring about his perfect plan and timing in this world.
Shifting to the New Testament
I Timothy 3:2 clearly indicates multiple wives in marriage is not the intended plan. This is why husband of 1 wife is specified as a requirement of pastoral leadership.
But that is for leaders you may argue. But the reality is we are to follow Jesus and our actions and thoughts should be toward that goal. If leadership requires the Christian be notably qualified by doing well in this way, it is also true that the congregation being led should also be striving to meet the same standard for it is out of the congregation that leaders will be determined and appointed by the Holy Spirit.
It is unfortunate the Bible doesn't fit man's desire for multiple wives or other arrangements for marriage. Before Christ, multiple wives to a husband was tolerated in some cases but that does not mean it was the intended perfect plan God created marriage to be. Specific to Hebrew law, the requirement for a wife (where the husband has brothers) in the family where the wife's husband dies without producing a child was to be married to the brother ( bringing the possibility of two wives to one man) was allowed to insure the bloodline and inheritance of the dead brother was not ended. For Israel this could cause problems if family lines died out given that each family line was promised prophetically specific blessings. Outside of that specific scenario, multiple wives is not condoned. In fact, I would argue that for the Christian, we are expected to follow Jesus. Jesus said to the teachers of the law that divorce was allowed to the Hebrew people by Moses because of their hard hearts (ie not seeking God), and clarified it was not the plan God intended (for marriage to be dissolved). Similarly marriage is designed and intended by God to be a uniting of one man and one woman into one flesh.
Matthew 19:4-6
Simply stated, God did not set His creation up to match man's sinful nature which came after the man's fall. Since God is Holy and we are not Holy in this life, this makes for a good deal of internal friction for our fleshly nature when we are trying to follow Jesus -- at least there is friction for those whom are following Jesus having believed in Him and trusted that His death and resurrection is the perfect sacrifice through which we are saved by grace through faith (which that faith is also given to the believer by the Holy Spirit awakening the person to the reality that they are dead in their sins and that they are made alive in Christ), and that this salvation through Jesus provides the Christian with the Holy Spirit which replaces our heart of stone (dead in sin and at war with God) with a heart of flesh (alive in Christ Jesus and able to resist the fleshly desires by relying on God and seeking Him). To follow Christ is to follow the Father and the institution of marriage given by God in this context of following God is one man and one woman married before God for life.
Frankly, the corruption of God's intended design and purpose for marriage and of the family produced in that paradigm is definitely part of Satan's plan for humanity. Satan's plan to corrupt is also greatly aided by sinful man's hard heart which ignores God's plan and purpose and supplants God's rule with mans sinful desires. Both destroying marriage and the family through divorce, adultery, and fornication and extending marriage to be multiple husbands and/or multiple wives are corruptions to what God has revealed in the Bible is intended. By following either path falling outside what God intended and specified ( 1 man and 1 woman), we are displaying and revealing evidence of our sinful hard hearts that do not seek and follow Jesus.
I’d share my husband over my cold dead body. And that’s not even coming from a feminist. Would you want to share your wife with other men? This sounds like the degenerate shit we are currently fighting against as Christians.
I dislike hypocrisy, it’s why I can never be a liberal. If men don’t want to share their wives why the hell should women share their husbands? How on Earth are harems the answer to our family and gender issues?? They fall for propaganda just like anyone else.
How about instead of cruising through raising our children we start getting involved. Raise them to know the importance of family values and to recognise propaganda and lies for what they are. We have generations just cruising through parenting and it has to stop. You want to save our society, it starts at home.
And even if God commanded this harem crap you speak of, I would rather die a spinster. I respect loyalty and love. My husband has both of those from me and I have both of those from him. I only have children from our marriage and he only has them from me. End of story.
Thank you for sharing this.
I had a wife. I couldn't make her happy, so I'm pretty sure that I couldn't handle more than one. ;)
I am working pretty hard to not disappoint the 1 I have. And don't think I could do any better not disappointing more than 1
i'm not really a mormon, but i always stick up for them
HAHAHAHA!
I'm not a Mormon either.
I once was one. Then I found Jesus Christ.
do you not consider mormons to be Christians? why not?
no, they don’t believe Jesus is God. They believe that when you die, you become a God, have your own planet, and continues to propagate it with all of your wives as is suggested in this post. 🤷♀️
that’s not saying that I don’t think that some Mormons are saved.
that’s not saying that I don’t think some Catholics are saved
that’s not saying that I don’t think some Christians are saved.
it’s a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and only God truly knows if somebody has accepted him as their Lord and savior.
that’s what it comes down to. I cannot claim that all Mormons are going to hell, that would be a ridiculous statement!
but if you don’t believe Jesus is God, then you have a huge problem with blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgivable sin.
Mormons are wild
Yep 👍
I'm pretty sure they follow the new testament though, so that may be a misunderstanding of their beliefs. the word 'god' is used many time in the Bible to refer to concepts other than the monotheistic JHVH. There is a reward in heaven, and 'god'like powers don't seem to conflict with the idea of JHVH and His only begotten son, Jesus Christ. The Bible still applies. So on behalf of all mormons, that is my issue with treating mormonism and Christianity as mutually exclusive.
Test of a Prophet can be used and seems pretty cut and dry
as in, whether their predictions come true? how does this apply?
They believe in a different Jesus than the one described in the Bible. The mormon Jesus is a created being, the spirit brother of Lucifer, the devil. The Christian Jesus is the fullness of deity (God) in human flesh. Mostly though mormons are polytheists (many gods). It is central to their doctrine which includes polygamy. Christianity is monotheistic (one eternal God, without beginning and without end). You are either one or the other. You cannot be both. This one fact alone excludes mormons from true Christianity.
Might blow your mind to know Jesus Christ never came to start a religion called Christianity.
He came to set men free, make the gift of holy spirit available and connect man to his God our Heavenly Father.
It's a relationship by birth. Now we are Son's of God also 1Jn says so. I wonder if you being a Son makes you God?
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
I don't see any facts here. they incorporate the whole Bible in their beliefs, which means it is the same Jesus, and not polytheistic.
Again, the Bible itself speaks of many 'gods', but that does not mean the Bible is polytheistic. So no, you sound nuts. People also read the Bible and conclude that the Earth is flat. Human understanding of the Bible is subject to many human errors, which I believe you have displayed here nicely. edit: and yes, just downdoot when you run out of logical arguments.
It's how they interpret the bible and blend it with BofM and Doctrine and covenants.
As man is god once was, as god is man may become. https://www.mormonwiki.com/As_Man_Now_Is,_God_Once_Was
Read Isiah 44:6-8 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2044:6-8&version=NKJV
Now who sounds nuts.. lol
you can find a contradiction there as easily as many find a contradiction between a firmament and a spherical earth. but that's a pretty worldly interpretation, and hardly conclusive.
and... it's always the one citing the NKJV lol
I’ve asked this question before and gotten a reply that makes some sense, but I don’t have the numbers behind it.
“It’s true that it’s not forbidden, but most of the cases of it presented in the Bible illustrate things going seriously wrong as a result of it.”
Anyone familiar with the jealousy and cattiness that women can harbor and enact, especially women, can support this comment.
Now, I did not afterward go through and make a list of each time the Bible mentions polygyny, and the immediate consequences and situations and long term issues it created, so this is just food for thought if someone else wants to dig on it.
There are verses, specifically around apocalyptic prophecy, where it is mentioned how many women will come begging for salvation from the faithful who remain, and how in those days God will be glorified greatly (paraphrased from memory). I don’t remember the specific verse.
Long story short I don’t have an answer, but this may be some information to ponder over and research. It seems like the situation for this practice to be sensible involves a lot of suffering and hardship to be present, so pray it never shows a need to be practiced.
Isaiah 4:1, "In that day so few men will be left that seven women will fight for each man, saying, “Let us all marry you! We will provide our own food and clothing. Only let us take your name so we won’t be mocked as old maids.”
⬆️ this is a "apocalyptic"prophecy. Think about deagle(.)com's (the US defense contractor) report projecting a 50% decline in world population by 2025.
I believe this will happen because societies follow a pendulum rhythm: "the measure of the swing to the left (culturally) will be the measure of the swing to the right," after this Conservative American Revolution has culminated.
Then (good) men who can support big families will be revered as highly valuable to society, possibly to an exaggerated extent.
Why? Because the degree to which even good men in the society now are reviled is at such an exaggerated state.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! That was the whole point of the OP but a lot of women and simps here just showed their feels and offered no even half assed rebuttal.
Cheers!
It’s one of those topics, like slavery, that we’ve had a bit of a taboo on discussing openly and reasonably with open minds for a while.
Screw taboos. What we were doing got us here. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, but question and test everything.
All this said, as I noted, I do think it’s probably better to avoid this practice for the foreseeable future unless something changes dramatically. I just also don’t think it should be considered off-limits. It strikes me as a “break glass in case of emergency” kind of thing.
Just got through watching an interesting video on youTube by Aewar called Black Swan Blues and it addresses this very thing. It is quite interesting to think about they "why" of it because I don't think you can deny it.
My wife and I used to be Catholic. My wife has a tattoo of a rosary on her hand… We were that deep. Have you ever even been to mass?
Article 65 of Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, is one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council.
yours was a poorly researched response that I do appreciate though. Dig deeper and come back with more.
Used to be Catholic and have a tattoo, lol, congrats??? That's real deep man.
Ah, Lumen Gentium of 1964 you mean, not 1951. Typo I'm sure. I'm familiar with it, however I'm at a loss of your inference of the "deification" of Mary. Or that Mary is to be worshipped instead of God the Son and God the Father (I'll include God the Holy Ghost for you too). "For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, CALLS THE FAITHFUL TO HER SON AND HIS SACRIFICE AND TO THE LOVE OF THE FATHER."
Bummed you can't provide any basis of your claim praying to Mary wasn't a thing before WWII. You say you can show someone, yet still no sauce. I was really looking forward to having a good laugh at that.
Yours was a poorly researched and wildly inaccurate post. My simple request for sauce doesn't require research. I have better things to do like daily mass and adoration. Will pray a rosary just for you today brother.
So in the time of OK to have sex with 3 year old girls one could have multiple wives. I'm so 🙄surprised.